are you an outline writer or write by the seat of your pants?

I do whatever I need to write the novel. Some I outline, some I don't.

Everybody uses whatever method they find most comfortable.

Glad you feel trying a new method is helping you but the proof will be when the novel concerned is written and finished.

I always write out a rough beat sheet first. I figure out my plot points and then break the piece down into ~100 word loose scenes.

I've found that being too detailed in the outline makes the actual writing process feel restrictive. I use my beat sheet as a guide and to estimate length, but I don't force myself to stay committed to it if a different scene unfolds more organically while writing.

There are two basic methods.

One either makes preliminary notes or one doesn't.

The extent to which one makes notes varies from a couple of scribbles on the back of a napkin to pages and pages and pages of detail - that's why I said folk do whatever they feel suits them.

You say you are curious as to how others write, but your own description is '...a real detailed outline before I even begin writing...' which means nothing to anyone but you. The responses to the thread question - which crops up regularly - are similarly meaningless most of the time.

snowpea said:

I'm not saying one is better than the other I was just curious how others write.

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I'm a pantser for draft one. I love nothing more than to be given a wacky prompt out of the blue and begin a story from it. I'm terrific at beginnings.

When the last word of the first draft is done, the hard work starts. Because I craft on the fly, no editing allowed, I inevitably have changes in POV, tense, characters, etc. I immediately go back and outline, starting with what is actually on the page, and then morph it into a better story structure.

Draft two works off the outline, smoothing out issues like extricating characters that shouldn't be there, adding scenes, etc. This process has worked really well for me.

I'm a panster who is right now wishing she was an outliner because I'm 40,000 words in and am not sure what happens next.

I have a hard time using outlines. Every time I try to write one, my mind just goes blank, but if I don't use an outline, I can come up with some pretty good stuff off the top of my head.

I'm rewriting the entire middle of my novel based on an outline I worked out with my agent. And now that I'm actually getting in there and drafting, I'm realizing that the outline is not really working. What made sense as logical bullet points to move the story mechanisms forward feels forced as actual prose.

So I'm pantsing a bit, and it's scary but the details of the outline were killing me. I do have to know what comes next, or I totally get lost in the weeds. Or maybe I don't really need to know and just cling to the idea that I need a roadmap. Perhaps I'm more of a pantser than I thought. Or I'm a pantser-outliner hybrid. Ugh.

To me, it's an artificial distinction. The process is the same--we make shit up and write it down. The only difference is when.

Some of us are more comfortable thinking a story through to the end, so we don't waste a few months writing ourselves into a corner we can't get out of.

Some of us find it fresher to write as we go, and would rather trade the occasional unworkable story for writing in the spontaneity of the moment.

I tend to think novels through before I write them, but I totally wing short stories. Works for me--doesn't for others.

I'm a panster because that's how my mind works. If I could think up the entire story first, then create an outline to guide me along, I probably would.

But I can't. I barely know what's going to happen next, forget trying to see to the end.

I'm experimenting with becoming more of an outliner. It's a hard slog, but I think MAYBE I'll have a better product when I'm done. Maybe.

Marlys said:

To me, it's an artificial distinction. The process is the same--we make shit up and write it down. The only difference is when.

Some of us are more comfortable thinking a story through to the end, so we don't waste a few months writing ourselves into a corner we can't get out of.

Some of us find it fresher to write as we go, and would rather trade the occasional unworkable story for writing in the spontaneity of the moment.

I tend to think novels through before I write them, but I totally wing short stories. Works for me--doesn't for others.

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Fairly true, though I don't think the process is the same in any way, and I've never had an unworkable story. I can't say any of my non-outlining writer finds have ever mentioned this problem, either. Most of the unworkable stories our group encounters comes from the outliners.

I guess I did a little of both for the manuscript I'm submitting now. For the most part I flew by the seat of my pants though I did carry a small notebook in my purse for when I wasn't at home but got an idea.

I never outline. You couldn;t pay me to outline. But I hate the word "panster", and the phrase "seat of the pants". I suspect an outliner came up with both.

I never outline, I never know what's going to happen on a page until I start writing that page, but I do not write anything that comes into my head, and do not write in a way that means the story will stall, or I'll paint myself in a corner, etc. If this happens, you're doing something wrong.

Even with no outline, I still follow story structure, I still pay very close attention to what I write, and every page I write matches the story in all the pages I've already written. This means there are no stories that hit a wall or go nowhere.

Pantser (sorry, JAR - I love the word ) I took advice and used an outline for the book I'm working on now, and got it written in just under a year - and it was bollocks. It was fine, but it had nothing new in or surprising in it. So I pulled a couple of the characters and the theme and reversed some roles and started again. Pantsing is much slower and more alarming for me - but infinitely more rewarding.

Wrote my first novel ever without (much of) an outline and it was a hot mess. Switched to detailed outlines. Dramatically less editing and vast quality improvements all around.

Outliner. I don't do well pantsing things at all. Maybe, just maybe I can get as far as chapter five before things fizzle out and die. But it invariablly becomes torture to write sans outline of some sort by the start of chapter three. The rest is forcing myself till I give up.

I'm a mostly-pantser. I make quite a few character notes before I start, like "this is the essence I want to capture", but the story comes as I write it. If I get stuck, then I will do some planning. Mostly this just helps me get moving again, and doesn't end up on the page as the story changes anyway.

I'm a big picture plotter. I make a synopsis/blurb of the story first thing before I decide whether I want to write it or not. I buff and tweak it until it shines, then I write the first scene. From there, I write whatever comes to me about the story, dialogue, random scenes, the ending even. I leave myself notes so that I know what order it all goes in and re-arrange as necessary. I should mention that I'm rarely a linear writer and it isn't unheard of for me to write an ending a year before the middle's even thought of yet. That's sometimes okay, sometimes a problem. I cannot write a detailed outline under any circumstances. The more detailed my outline is, the less motivated I am to write that story because I feel like I already have.

I always outline. Even so, in every story I've written the characters have injected their own attitudes and plot twists as I follow along the outline path. Every so often they give me a flash of inspiration that will make me revise the outline to add in a new segment or change one already there.

I find that is a natural part of writing. The characters, even though they're all made up in my head, take on a life of their own as the words grow on the page. That's one of the most fascinating parts of writing -- having a story or story segment unfold in a way I never imagined before I got to that part. It's fun!

Hybrid. My first novel was pantsed and it was a hot mess and i spent 3 months cleaning it into something semi workable. Second novel is outlined by plot points as is my novella. I learned my lesson the first time - I have to have at least plot beats in place. I still have room for spontaneity but am not writing all over the place trying to find direction.

Every writer is different. Some adore outlines. Some adore improvising. Both work, at least for them.

Most end up doing a little bit of both. Mystery write John D. Mcdonald, for instance, outlined the first third in detail, the middle third very loosely, and the last third only as a goal where he wanted the story to end up. Sci-fi/fantasy writer Lois McMaster Bujold writes the first few chapters from a rough outline, then rewrites them, then starts the process all over again.

I suspect those who are good at improv have a good understanding of overall story structures. So they consciously or unconsciously follow those structures: the good old beginning, middle, and end, and so on.