The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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Drachen Jager

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Thank you for the information. It would really help if I could use the Taser three times in about ten minutes. How can I make that possible? Would the character have to reload a new cartridge each time? And would she be unaware the battery was dying? (So it fails on the attempted third or fourth shot?)

Perhaps this will help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zQ0_d-BFM4 Nothing like a visual demonstration. The video is of a cop tasing a belligerent drunk-driver over and over as he keeps resisting.

The battery is unlikely to run out. It takes a few seconds to replace the taser dart-module, but if she has enough in her pockets she can use it as much as she wants. She's unlikely to use up the battery so quickly. I suspect, but do not know, there's a battery indicator.
 

underthecity

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In the story, the character bought the Taser used, so she is not an expert with it. Plotwise, the battery runs out on the third or fourth shot. The other character comments that the next time she does this, to make sure the battery is charged first.

But if the character has to reload after every use, that should work.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Like all electro-convulsive weapons, Tasers are battery powered, but they need a capacitor to develop the appropriate voltage. A capacitor can hold a charge, but only for a relatively short period, so a battery is needed to charge it up. It is super-simple to make your own stun-gun with a large capacitor and a battery and not much else.

Yup, in AF tech school we'd charge capacitors and boobytrap the urinals. Good times.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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OT: We'd also install "emergency showers" in the breakroom above people's chairs so as to douse them with water. This was in response to super soaker fights. Nothing like mission-oriented practical jokes to motivate people.

On topic:

This is a rarish item. The Canadian 1905 Ross rifle. It's a straight pull bolt action. No need to raise the handle, just cycle straight back and forth. They paid a Scotsman 1.3 oz gold each for these, and it was in "development" perpetually. The Model of 1910 proved disastrous for the Canadian Expeditionary Force in WWI. The interrupted thread breech did not work well with trench mud. It also had an occasional tendency to...explode...if you reassembled the bolt incorrectly. Luckily, the 1905 Model does not have that problem.

The Ross came to an end when there was an intervention, IIRC, against a high-ranking minister who'd been sponsoring it with other people's money for 15 years.

It's almost impossible to find parts for these, but I lucked out and found a trashed drill rifle (they were sent to the US after 1918 for practicing manual of arms, not shooting) and stripped some spare parts.

I also have Swiss straight pulls, which are the Swiss Watch of rifles, and an Austrian Steyr.

RossRight2.jpg


Ross3.jpg


Ross2.jpg


Depressing the lever forward of the magazine lowers the magazine follower so you can just drop ammunition in.

They're sort of steampunk in feel. Halfway between bolt action and self-loading.
 
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MoLoLu

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Hmm have a question, not 100% firearms but closely related. Maybe someone can help me out.

How long would it take to train someone to be moderately proficient with a weapon in a combat situation? I'm not talking super-effective but know what to do and how to handle his weapon.

To make matters a tad complex, this training would need to be focused on an urban environment.
 

Drachen Jager

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Depends on the weapon and optics. Iron sights take much longer to learn than a red-dot sight for instance.

With a modern CQB rifle with a red-dot sight you could teach someone to be moderately effective within minutes. Though I'd be concerned they might be more of a liability than an asset as an untrained newb is about as likely to shoot his own guys as he is to kill a zombie or whatever if things get crazy.
 

MoLoLu

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Depends on the weapon and optics. Iron sights take much longer to learn than a red-dot sight for instance.

With a modern CQB rifle with a red-dot sight you could teach someone to be moderately effective within minutes. Though I'd be concerned they might be more of a liability than an asset as an untrained newb is about as likely to shoot his own guys as he is to kill a zombie or whatever if things get crazy.

Hmm yeah, that was what was bothering me. I fired two rifles with iron sights and the basic principles seemed simple.

The question should be how long would it take to train someone how to react in a firefight - but I guess that's a close to impossible question to answer as it's entirely dependant on the person in question.

I should probably take a look at current military training.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Hmm yeah, that was what was bothering me. I fired two rifles with iron sights and the basic principles seemed simple.

The question should be how long would it take to train someone how to react in a firefight - but I guess that's a close to impossible question to answer as it's entirely dependant on the person in question.

I should probably take a look at current military training.

You can train, and relatively quickly--a few hours or days covers it for most people. How they react is entirely subjective to the person, situation and events.
 

skylark

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I fired two rifles with iron sights and the basic principles seemed simple.

The basic principles are simple. We take Scouts age 12 and up who have largely never even seen a gun up close before, give them a fifteen minute "how-to" and safety briefing, and they then shoot .22 target rifles with iron (aperture) sights off a rest. It's rare to have one who hasn't "got it" sufficiently to keep all their shots on the target.

I've no idea how long it would take to train someone to the point where you could be reasonably sure that they wouldn't freak out when it came to the point of shooting a person.
 

ironmikezero

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A target who can shoot back drastically changes the dynamic. This is where training is invaluable. It is essentially honing and buttressing the innate survival instinct with enhanced skills, knowledge, and abilities to manage and focus an appropriate level of aggression in accomplishing a mission. In the (paraphrased) words of George Patton - ...it's not about you dying for your country - it's about making the other dumb bastard die for his...
 

BRDurkin

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Hmm have a question, not 100% firearms but closely related. Maybe someone can help me out.

How long would it take to train someone to be moderately proficient with a weapon in a combat situation? I'm not talking super-effective but know what to do and how to handle his weapon.

To make matters a tad complex, this training would need to be focused on an urban environment.

I know I'm considerably late in joining this conversation, and the OP of this question may never ever see my response. But on the off chance they return, I thought I would offer my two cents. Not because anyone else who has answered is wrong, but because as a firearms instructor who teaches people with zero firearms training how to defend themselves in high stress, life or death situations, I may have a slightly different perspective on how to answer this question.

In a combat situation, the weapon is by far NOT the biggest piece of the equation. One of the slogans of the company I work for is "Any gun will do if YOU will do." What that means is, no matter what kind of weapon you're carrying when that "oh crap" moment happens and your life is suddenly on the line, if you have trained to respond appropriately, you have a good chance of winning.

Training is so much more than just learning how to shoot a weapon accurately. It's even more than learning how that weapon works, even down to its intimate details. Effective training is learning how the human mind and body responds to a high stress, high adrenaline, chaotic environment and situation, when even tenths of a second can mean the difference between life and death. Effective training involves training your body so that when the moment comes, you can set everything else aside, and act quickly, decisively, and effectively--in exactly the right way, every time. It involves ingraining muscle memory (making your body move appropriately without even thinking about it) and yet keeping your brain engaged despite the fear, panic, and chaos of the situation. This doesn't happen in hours or even days.

So yeah, you could teach someone HOW to shoot a gun in a relatively short period of time. But as Drachen Jager touched on, in any sort of stressful, life or death situation, you run the risk of having them be a serious liability. At best, they'd just freeze up and get themselves killed. At worst, they'd spray and pray, and shoot you in the back, too.

With that in mind, if this is for a character who's just providing impromptu back-up or in a last ditch move to get him some self defense skills, training him on the gun could be enough. But if we're talking taking them into a sustained combat situation or on a mission that requires specialized combat skills, anyone who knows better is going to quirk an eyebrow and go, "Nuh uh."

Just my two cents. I'm still learning about this myself, too... and training for it! ;)
 

Ken

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... do all shotguns have double barrels? Or is there a type of fairly common gun or rifle that has two barrels? I'm looking for one to include in a (not altogether realistic) story. Thanks.

ps Out of curiosity, how do double-barrel guns work?
Do bullets come out of both barrels simultaneously?
 

BRDurkin

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No, many shotguns have only one barrel. There are a wide variety of shotguns, some with one, and some with two.

However, to my knowledge, there are are no modern rifles that use more than one barrel.

For the early double-barreled shotguns, both barrels could be discharged simultaneously, though it wasn't often recommended, as the recoil would be immense. This was hard on both the shooter and the gun. Some versions, especially earlier ones, had separate triggers for each barrel. Later models had just one trigger, and these models could only fire one barrel at a time, since the trigger had to be pulled once for each shot.

Link for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barreled_shotgun
 

Richard White

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... do all shotguns have double barrels? Or is there a type of fairly common gun or rifle that has two barrels? I'm looking for one to include in a (not altogether realistic) story. Thanks.

ps Out of curiosity, how do double-barrel guns work?
Do bullets come out of both barrels simultaneously?

If you do a double barreled shotgun, some come side by side and some come over/under.

(I remember accidentally discharging both barrels of my father's 10 gauge goose gun . . . Ow! Even with an inch and a half of padding on the stock, I still went elbows over . . . well, I fell over backwards.)

Also, there are combination weapons out there. A common "survival" weapon may be a .22 rifle/.410 shotgun over/under combo. Others include a 30-06/12 gauge combo.

For example, http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/eaa-41022-combo-gun?page=2

Pretty much, if you can imagine it, someone's built them somewhere.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Double barreled rifles (Double rifles) start around $10,000. They are hand fitted and it takes time to regulate the barrels for the same point of aim (normally 100 yards or so) assuming side by side. Over/under doubles are easier to regulate, but still have a lot of hand work. They are specifically intended for hunting so you can get a second shot off fast.

Double barreled shotguns can be had used for $100, and go up to $50,000. Some have a single selectable trigger. Some have a standard pattern (right then left, or top then bottom). some have two triggers. You can fire both barrels at once, but you do not want to. You're getting twice the impulse energy on the same weight weapon. Even a lowly .410 bore HURTS when you do that.

Drillings have three barrels, usually two shotgun over a rifle. Virlings have four (usually two of each). Drillings are rare, Virlings are very rare.

Shotguns come as single, double, pump, semi and exotic.

Custom riot gun, pump action, 12 gauge, 8 round tube magazine. $1200 plus optics
870OAL2.jpg


1905 Stevens double, 12 gauge, about $125.
Stevens.jpg


Stevens single shot. Currently with a rifle barrel--they interchange. It has barrels in .30-30 rifle, .410 bore, 20, 16 and 12 gauge. With one shotgun barrel, they go used for about $100. New ones run $80-$200 depending on brand.


Stevens219.jpg


There are high-end ANYTHING if someone wants to pay for it.

Over/under shotgun:
Citori-625-Feather-MID-013427-l.jpg




http://www.searcyent.com/ double rifles here.
Classic.jpg


Over/Under rifle:
bild1.gif



http://www.krieghoff.co.uk/optima.html Drillings here.
2658.jpg


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=268382293 Saiga shotgun here--a semiauto shotgun built on an AK action.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=268005482 Remington sporting semiauto

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=268428806 Remington semiauto riot gun

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=268443404 Mossberg pump hunting shotgun in camo scheme
 
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Ken

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... thanks very much for the info, Michael, Drachen, Richard, BRDurken.
The type of gun in my story is a small but critical detail. This will help me settle on the right one and get the terminology correct.

On a side note, I'm a bit surprised that manufacturers haven't figured out a way to combat kick or at least reduce it so larger caliber guns can be used. I know that would be going against the laws of physics to some extent. Still, you'd think that something so essential as reducing kick would've been managed by now.
 

The Grift

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On a side note, I'm a bit surprised that manufacturers haven't figured out a way to combat kick or at least reduce it so larger caliber guns can be used. I know that would be going against the laws of physics to some extent. Still, you'd think that something so essential as reducing kick would've been managed by now.

They have. Lots and lots of ways. Ported barrels, weighted barrels, muzzle brakes, recoil reduction pads, recoil suppressors, recoil reduction rods, other ways of re-directing the blast, etc etc.

Even the basic semi-auto handgun design serves as a kind of recoil reduction, because a portion of the kinetic force is transferred into moving the slide back. And some manufacturers, such as HK, have gone even further to put what they call recoil reduction systems into their pistols, which consist of specially made and placed springs and other parts.

You can only reduce recoil so much. A gun is an explosion in your hands focused in one direction. Newton tells us we have to have an equal and opposite reaction for that somewhere. There are plenty of ways to reduce it, but you can't eliminate it.
 

Taylor_Writes

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Do anyone know what the age requirements are to own a revolver in 1890 (Yes,nI mean Eighteen - Ninety)? Hopefully I'm not posting in the wrong spot or whatever...
 
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