Contending... [rant warning]

With modern impatience and demand, really.

Skip to the bottom if you want the question, that you may provide your opinion/advice and save... xTime out of your life.



What am I doing?

I've hit a brick wall in my writing. Because, as I was relating to someone in one of my private circles, it seems to me that all the things people want in a book anymore are not the things I'm intending to deliver with the one(s) that I want to write.

I'm trying to find what works; I've found what works for me, but what I want doesn't mesh with modern readers and their demands.

Frankly, I hear when people say "This is too unexciting; I need more (insert element here)." or "This requires (insert aspect here)." And I get that this is all to personal preference; we read what we read because we like/want to read it. I appreciate that someone took the time to say that. I do take the time to apply what I can where I can apply it.

But... am I trying to write for you, or am I writing for me?

Knowing what a reader wants, and knowing what I want to do, I'm at a standstill. Because to go on writing what I want to write, I risk constant complaints of "I don't get what the plot is" despite the plot having gone on all the while. It's like I'm asking for patience when no one has it, and no one seems able to grasp just where I'm going without me laying it down in bright neon lettering with numerical bullets and having it indented 4.5" into the page every time it occurs.

Frankly, the plot of my WIP(s) isn't so simple as "This is the single, central point; here it is, look at it, this is what you want." And not everything that I write is... universally/particularly exciting; but it is relevant to the story.

To remedy that, I keep thinking... "Lets throw some random action in it!" And that's where I stop. Because frankly that just makes the whole WIP stupid.

For example in part two of scene two that I'm waiting to drop, I was thinking: what if So'yi caused a major back up in the west-eleventh deployment passeo? That would delay their operations for six to twenty-four weeks, and make everyone look just straight-up dumb. Plus, what is Sara, Arlen, Marqisian and Yonathael going to do for six to twenty-four weeks that isn't some redundant thing? Oh I know, lets do exactly as I had planned for chapter 3 -- only drag it out far longer than it actually needs because the attack got epically delayed over general stupidity.

See, that just sounds idiotic. But going on to reveal the first Sygon of the story; dig a little more into Rollond's character; the fore-plans of when, where, with what and how they intend to assault their enemy; and how Asagio winds up being Rollond's slave... I don't know where to throw in a high-speed car chase to sate the desire for continual excitement.

I'm not writing a book stocked with Michael Bay Syndrome.




So then, the question I have for you:

What would you do, if you wanted to remedy complaints of having a 'too easy-going' chapter, but didn't want to throw in random action sequences?

Keep in mind that everything you're writing is important to the plot overall, because in the following chapters (throughout the book) it connects with other points here and there.

Also, if you do that, and the reader notices that it's just random filler stuff, what do you do then? Do you own up to it? Or do you just not do it?

quicklime said:

[...] but once it becomes "art" there's this expectation that you get to have it your way, AND force the guy at B&N to buy it.

Free market. In a perfect world you get to do it your way AND be adored for it, but if it doesn't come out to that, well, you gotta choose--do it to please you, or to sell.

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I have noted before that I don't ever really intend to 'sell' my WIPs -- I mean those that pertain to TKoE and its offshoots. At least not with a great deal of success (or any at all, for that matter). I just want to refine the story and get it off of my chest. If someone wants to read it, I'm sure they can have a free copy if they asked nicely.

So please me it is, then.

But in the mean time, I don't want it to be a heaping pile of rancid gymsocks. That's where I get stuck.

And yeah "don't ask for feedback if you're just writing for you and -- blah blah blah." No.

Even if it is just for me, the feedback I get from others on it can just as well apply to any other work that I may be writing with view to publishing for potential money. Or whatever else people publish for. So I'm going to ask whether its for me or anyone else.

... At no time have I called anyone an idiot.

I said that responses to my writing have indicated that it is confusing; so it is.

I've indicated that there are times where I have to color plot elements like a bag of skittles and write them in bold; I feel that way.

I've stated that I view the majority of readers as impatient and demanding; and most of them are in this day and age.

None of that means I think readers are any less intellectual than I, or any writer, or anyone else of general commonsense and knowledge.

Just wanted to clear that up: I'm not calling anyone stupid.
Furthermore, I was calling the idea of altering things in the draft for the sheer sake of 'excitement' stupid for expressed reasons.

Now if I can have a minute, I'mma pop up with some responses to this and that and that and this and them thangs thar.

shadowwalker said:

I think, for one thing, you're not very appreciative of your betas' (read audience's) intelligence. Secondly, you seem to be just as unappreciative of other authors' works, which don't always have a simple plot, and aren't always 'universally' exciting.

So A) if you don't want to accept/consider the feedback you get, don't ask for it. Just hand out the story to people who 'get' you and bask in their praise. B) don't confuse exciting with interesting. Your book doesn't have to be exciting; it does have to be interesting - unless of course you don't care if any one else enjoys it or not.

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I do like the more complex works by other authors. I love the familiarity of characters on a plot that continues from book to book and I like that the plot extends past one premise and into another, that it's not all wrapped up in one book.

Now, as for my motifs for feedback... I entirely understand and do agree with you, shadow. However, I find that feedback of every sort leads to improvement, and even if it's something that I initially would disagree with, I still make note of it for its educational value. Because at some point, that may very well apply to something I'm working on.

I do care if others enjoy it. I have said that. And if I do decide to publish anything of mine, it's not for the idea of having epic heaps of cash, fame, or motives other than wanting to share a story. In the hope that someone might just enjoy it.

quicklime said:

except, and apologies if I'm not following you, you seem pretty uninterested in internalizing these changes--YOU were the one who framed it as "writing for myself, or them" so it would seem your initial question was about taking and using that feedback, no?



note, fwiw, I don't have a particular dog in this fight--folks who write fanfic or blog or keep a journal don't have any intent on cashing in, and can do whatever, however, they choose. Many enjoy it. Assuming you have any intent of moving on though, i do believe drawing a line in the sand and separating everything into "being true to one's artistry" or "going Michael Bay" is self-defeating. You intend to call yourself a writer, then surely if folks aren't into your "boring" stretches told one way, you can write them in another.

Put another way, if you can't hold their interest, and they aren't idiots (and in this case it is worth remembering most of the folks you would LIKE to consider idiots....probably aren't), maybe the onus is on your to fix it. At least, that's been my work ethic. I've ignored a handful of things, and side-stepped a few others, but when folks have told me I was wrong, I usually was. So, decide the merit of the comments, and if they have some, then find a better way. Or move on with something else. It happens.

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You're right, my question is on using feedback.

When I say "Write for myself" I mean that I want to enjoy what I write. And, for the most part, I do. However, I do not want to write these things in the dark. I ask for feedback to improve my skills with my hobby. And I think that is just as worthy a reason for sharing with view to receiving critique as doing so with view to cashing in for a specific target audience.

Now that does mean that there are things that I don't really want to hear, but I'm going to hear them anyway. I recognize that I have to accept what I'm told, whether I'm writing for me, or for anyone else. I'm not special in that regard.

That does not mean that I can get away with "Pff--fuck you." and keep on doing what I'm doing. I do make changes to my draft; I don't always take it upon myself to post those updates immediately, but I do listen and apply.

NeuroFizz said:

Taking a different tack here.

Never underestimate the intelligence of the readers out there. If some of them comment on a difficulty in following your plotting, maybe your writing is not as clear as you think it is. And this has nothing to do with spoonfeeding to a semi-literate mass. [This is not aimed at you, S.] We have had people come in here and complain that their work was not being properly comprehended because the readers out there were just not up to the writer's level of genius. The more likely scenario was that this person was trying so hard to be genius-y he/she simply was writing cryptic mumbo jumbo (all in the name of genius-y art). Sometimes we can all have a little of this feeling--assuming the readers are dense if they can't get what we are intending in our writing. But every time I get that kind of feedback, I go back and take a critical look, and I always find I didn't do the very best job of getting my points across. And I take it as a challenge to be more clear without insulting the reader's intellegence by spoonfeeding. This is where one's creativity is challenged to its fullest.

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Thank you for this insight, Fizz.

jjdebenedictis said:

I'd say you should start by separating 'getting published' from 'writing' in your mind.

Personally, I think it's better to write what you want to (unless you NEED to get food on the table with your writing paycheque) because writing what other people want tends to sap your passion and produce pandering fluff that other people don't really want to read after all.

Brave, personal stories have a chance of resonating with an audience powerfully. Pandering fluff doesn't.

Now, if your goal is to make a bunch of money writing, and what you write isn't very marketable, then you have a problem. You might want to consider tweaking what you're trying to produce.

But if your goal is write and perhaps be published, there may well be a market for the kinds of stuff you write, although it might be a niche market that will never pay you very well. You don't necessarily have to change what you're trying to do with your writing, but you might have to adjust your expectations for how large a market your writing can reach.

I think writing is such a sustained, wrenching effort that I can't, personally, see much point in doing it if I'm not enjoying it. I do want to be published, but if what I write proves to not be marketable, then I'd rather accept that fact than try to write stories I don't like and don't feel any connection to.

It doesn't matter what your beta readers think of your work if you're writing for yourself. There is no reason to worry about their opinion if you're doing this as a labour of love. (And, in my opinion, you should at least write for the love of it. Trying to sell the final result is a separate act.)

If you want to become a published author, however, then you should consider the reactions of others to your work.

That said, there is merit to considering whether your beta readers just aren't the right audience for what you're creating. If they want action-packed adventure, and you're crafting subtle, intellectually interesting stories, they're not going to be capable of helping you see where to improve your work. They're simply tuned to a different channel.

Good luck with it. Figuring out where your priorities lie in terms of writing and getting published is always a bit of an emotional mess.

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This, so far, I appreciate the most.

I'm going into nursing to put bread on my table. This also enables me to write without the pressure of "This is my bread and butter, so I need this to appeal to as many people as I can in order to profit!"

As I said, writing is my hobby. If I want to publish, it's because I want to share. That doesn't mean that I want to share a heap of crap. Which I suppose is part of what it is right now. But, eh, there are some crits I tuck away for later...

I suppose I could re-contemplate my priorities, too.

Thank you!

BethS said:

Sounds like what you're lacking is conflict. In particular, interesting conflict.

Do not mistake conflict for arguments or battles.

Conflict = goal + obstacle

What do your characters want more than anything? What are you doing to deny it to them? To what lengths will a character go to reach his goal? How much does it matter?

It had better matter a lot.

What do they fear more than anything? How are you forcing them to face their fears? What strategies will a character devise to avoid facing it?

Extreme ones, it is to be hoped.

How is the agenda of one character bringing him or her into opposition with another character? Are these characters already enemies, or are they the closest of friends? What would it take to drive a wedge between them? How far would they go in opposing each other? What would it take for them to give up that opposition? Or conversely, what would it take to bring two enemies into accord?

Something drastic, presumably.

Bottom line, what are the consequences of your characters not achieving their goals?

The consequences had better be serious, increasing to dire as the story progresses.

All of the above is what makes fiction interesting and keeps readers reading.

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I appreciate this advice. I think after long enough I'm going to run what I got through with this here.

Thank you~

Anninyn said:

Write what you want. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that people don't like your work because of a fault in them.

For a start, plenty of people like the sort of book you describe. They just don't like it to be dull. If you don't give a reason to care - and that doesn't need to be high action - I'm not going to care.

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I realize this. Problem is, I don't think people tend to care for the same reasons that I do...

And it's a bit difficult -- on my end -- for me to get that straightened out. So, I think with a bit more time (and struggle) I'll get to the point where I can re[SUP]^13[/SUP]assess reasons for caring.

Thank you.