The educated novelist?
- Thread starter TanbirMuhammad
- Start date
- Status
But the soupcon of dread that a real beast of an advisor adds to the process... well... it's something special
I didn't say graduate school was the only way to learn it, only that it's one way to learn it. And frankly, that's all I did learn, in graduate school.
As to Kallithrix's crippling self doubt... I guess there's a reason Samantha is my favorite SATC character. "The sort of delusional self-confidence that made Ross Perot run for president," that's me.http://absolutewrite.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
Last edited:
I think being educated should ultimately enrich your way of looking at the world. I think a good novel reflects a writer who has been enriched in some way, or continues to seek enrichment.
When I first went to college in 2003, I majored in English and Communications, absorbed all that I could, and dropped out two years later. Then, I completed my bachelors in 2012 in a degree in Forensic Psychology. None of what I did taught me to write a novel. But it did make me write more about various topics, as well as think more about themes I wanted to explore in my writing.
Also, when writing I research and read as often as I can. I think regardless of genre, writing a book should expose you to new ideas and new areas of study. It should motivate you to learn, to continue to educate yourself on whatever you think is relevant.
When I first went to college in 2003, I majored in English and Communications, absorbed all that I could, and dropped out two years later. Then, I completed my bachelors in 2012 in a degree in Forensic Psychology. None of what I did taught me to write a novel. But it did make me write more about various topics, as well as think more about themes I wanted to explore in my writing.
Also, when writing I research and read as often as I can. I think regardless of genre, writing a book should expose you to new ideas and new areas of study. It should motivate you to learn, to continue to educate yourself on whatever you think is relevant.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2012
- Messages
- 1,561
- Reaction score
- 119
- Location
- Austin
- Website
- www.soipondered.wordpress.com
This.
I don't believe that you need a formal education to be a successful writer. I do believe that you need to be educated in the subject matter that you are dealing with. That goes with many different professions.
There is a reason that many people in the work force work in an industry that they did not study for. English majors in tech jobs. Engineers in sales jobs. All that matters generally (there are plenty of exceptions), is that you are educated in the field you are working in to be successful. Even then I bet there are successful people out there that know nothing about what they are doing (the epitome of bullshit til you make it).
Formal education helps, but it is not be all, end all.
Snicker, exactly my thought
Look, for the purposes of writing, you need to be educated (and literate!)
That education does not need to come from a formal source. It may do often in bestsellers lists (but there may also be some extra self selection there, in that people who know from a young age they want to write do that as their degree)
But it is not required in any way shape or form
What is required is:
Read in your chosen genre lots
Read any source material that you think may help
Study how writers you enjoy create the effect they do
Write a lot
Be inquisitive in life, be curious, wonder why, or how.
You don't need a degree for that. It may help hone you, but you won;t fail just because you never went to uni.
I disagree with James, but I have no links to counter the links he did not provide. Education should teach you how to think and solve problems, whether it is formal or informal.
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 16,339
- Reaction score
- 4,110
- Location
- East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
- Website
- www.jlevitt.com
I'm a college dropout. I've been relatively successful as a genre novelist. (Fantasy and mystery.)
On the other hand, I personally know a lot of writers in my field. Most of them have advanced degrees in varying disciplines. And the one thing they all seem to have in common is a broad swath of knowledge in many fields -- science, anthropology, history, you name it.
Most of them are also unbelievably well read outside their own genre, in both literary fiction and nonfiction.
It's certainly not necessary to have these attributes, but I must say I think it really helps. I think it's not so much the knowledge one acquires as the curiosity about the world these authors have, which impels them to read or study all kinds of things, whether directly relevant to their writing or not.
But honestly, I can't see how one could acquire a degree in history without having gained much knowledge about many things over the years.
AlibasterToad
Registered
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 1
Most people have already answered the question from their perspectives. The only advice I have is that education is useful for different things but it can be much more rewarding if you specifically know what you want. There are certain areas of publishing that requires a specific type of writing, which may be easier to achieve if you already have certification with an association, or a degree, to back up what you are writing to be more legitimate. That does not mean one requires the other in order to do the other, there's not one single path for all. There's always the possibility that the individual just wants the experience alone, which is also valid so I don't think any less of those who get a degree in History for example. A degree in History can be applied to many fields or careers and could be useful, but not everyone's path or opportunities are the same so there is no certainty for any degree. The only certainty you can get out of a degree is how much work you devote to it, and the choices you make.
I chose chemistry because I've had a love of the environment for over a decade, and I was interested in a scientific field that was connected to others where I could learn to use instrumentation. Hence, "Chemistry" is a central science, where other disciplines overlap with it. The reason why it's useful to have a Chemistry degree or any field in science is access to laboratories, equipment, and other researchers. You gain support from all of it as a community. Alternatively, you could learn Chemistry on your own, but it would cost a substantial amount of money to build a laboratory and convince the DEA you aren't a drug manufacturer. And well, if you want to do writing for Chemistry or some other fields, you'll need access to those laboratories in order to research topics to write about that are publishable. In many science fields the the mantra is, "Publish or Sink" because you need to do research and become published in order to prove yourself.
The only way to answer the original question is whether it's useful for the individual, and what type of writing you ultimately want to do. For creative writing, it may not make a substantial difference, but you will gain something else out of it than just learning how to write better. You may gain new connections, meet people, learn about new ideas, and you will have a degree. Whether the degree is useful to you or not, that is a difficult question to ask but honestly only you can find that out. It takes soul searching, and a lot of thinking. Ask more people for advice, and seek out a community college adviser. If you can pinpoint a specific career you want from it or a goal, great you should ask others how they did that, but not everyone wants a career. Some may only want the experience by itself which is also good. You do not a degree to do any writing ultimately, there are some areas where you could teach yourself and save money. I work in an Advising and Counseling department at a college. Everyone who comes through those doors either knows what they want to do, or alternatively they have no idea at all. It all depends on many factors, whether you gain more from doing one alternatively to another.
I chose chemistry because I've had a love of the environment for over a decade, and I was interested in a scientific field that was connected to others where I could learn to use instrumentation. Hence, "Chemistry" is a central science, where other disciplines overlap with it. The reason why it's useful to have a Chemistry degree or any field in science is access to laboratories, equipment, and other researchers. You gain support from all of it as a community. Alternatively, you could learn Chemistry on your own, but it would cost a substantial amount of money to build a laboratory and convince the DEA you aren't a drug manufacturer. And well, if you want to do writing for Chemistry or some other fields, you'll need access to those laboratories in order to research topics to write about that are publishable. In many science fields the the mantra is, "Publish or Sink" because you need to do research and become published in order to prove yourself.
The only way to answer the original question is whether it's useful for the individual, and what type of writing you ultimately want to do. For creative writing, it may not make a substantial difference, but you will gain something else out of it than just learning how to write better. You may gain new connections, meet people, learn about new ideas, and you will have a degree. Whether the degree is useful to you or not, that is a difficult question to ask but honestly only you can find that out. It takes soul searching, and a lot of thinking. Ask more people for advice, and seek out a community college adviser. If you can pinpoint a specific career you want from it or a goal, great you should ask others how they did that, but not everyone wants a career. Some may only want the experience by itself which is also good. You do not a degree to do any writing ultimately, there are some areas where you could teach yourself and save money. I work in an Advising and Counseling department at a college. Everyone who comes through those doors either knows what they want to do, or alternatively they have no idea at all. It all depends on many factors, whether you gain more from doing one alternatively to another.
Last edited:
Education is extremely important, otherwise, how would you know how to read or write?
Education is just knowledge, the more the better. It never hurt anyone.
I studied science and math in college with the usual assortment of required liberal arts classes, plus geography in graduate school. None of them taught me how to write a novel so I've had to learn that on my own (thank you Uncle Jim). College did help feed a hunger for knowledge that I have though, and did train my mind to think rationally.
My creative writing class was clearly the best in terms of improving my writing ability. Speech class was the best in terms of my career.
If I were young again and wanted to be a novelist I'd probably study history, geography, psychology, sociology, anthropology and English in college. Oh, wait, I did study those subjects in college, and they all have helped me immensely.
Attending college is not obligatory to absorb that knowledge, but a higher education does provide a rigor and challenge to your intellect that learning on your own does not. It also provides a human interaction between faculty and other students that further stimulates our natural curiosity. Learning on your own doesn't do that for you. That's why I joined this forum. I learn more by participating and interacting with other thoughtful writers than from mere lurking.
As a final thought, I wonder what percentage of professional novelists & other types of writers have a college degree? I don't know that answer, but I'd bet it's extremely high. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if it's over 99%.
Education is just knowledge, the more the better. It never hurt anyone.
I studied science and math in college with the usual assortment of required liberal arts classes, plus geography in graduate school. None of them taught me how to write a novel so I've had to learn that on my own (thank you Uncle Jim). College did help feed a hunger for knowledge that I have though, and did train my mind to think rationally.
My creative writing class was clearly the best in terms of improving my writing ability. Speech class was the best in terms of my career.
If I were young again and wanted to be a novelist I'd probably study history, geography, psychology, sociology, anthropology and English in college. Oh, wait, I did study those subjects in college, and they all have helped me immensely.
Attending college is not obligatory to absorb that knowledge, but a higher education does provide a rigor and challenge to your intellect that learning on your own does not. It also provides a human interaction between faculty and other students that further stimulates our natural curiosity. Learning on your own doesn't do that for you. That's why I joined this forum. I learn more by participating and interacting with other thoughtful writers than from mere lurking.
As a final thought, I wonder what percentage of professional novelists & other types of writers have a college degree? I don't know that answer, but I'd bet it's extremely high. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if it's over 99%.
Even if there's a correlation between higher education and novelists being successful, I wouldn't consider that to prove causation. There are key traits most of us agree help a novelist be successful (a love of reading, intelligence, dedication) and I would guess these may be traits that also make a person very likely to pursue higher education.
I dunno... I see having a graduate degree as more of a hindrance than an asset when it comes to writing fiction.
I thought I knew how to write before I started my first novel, and it was true, in the sense that I could string together coherent, grammatically correct sentences and paragraphs. But an advanced degree and years of professional writing experience were no help at all with plot, characterization, description, dialogue, pacing, and the other skills novelists have to master.
Academic writing and fiction writing just aren't comparable, IMO.
You are most certainly correct. A higher education does not cause one to become a writer. Correlation and causation are two different things.
What causes individuals to become writers is probably, I'm guessing here, something unmeasurable.
In the best novels I can think of it's obvious the author has a high degree of empathy and understanding of human nature. Does that cause one to become a writer? I don't know, but it's a great quality to have for a writer.
All that means is that you haven't been able to separate the qualities of creative and academic writing. Certainly they are not identical, but there is a Venn diagram involved; there is some degree of overlap. Any form of writing has to focus on communication, and it's up to the writer to understand what form that needs to take to communicate to the intended audience.
Academic education won't guarantee you can write creative narrative well. It also won't guarantee you can't.
caw
I'm with the Bird on this. I think it's better to have an education than not, but not because of writing. Because of Other Stuff.
dondomat
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,373
- Reaction score
- 225
Hello.
I'm sorry if this is a silly question, but how important do you think it is for a novelist to be educated?
If someone wants to write fiction for a living, say, someone who reads fiction religiously, writes a lot, but has little education in areas like science, physics, biology, evolution, astrology and other complex subjects, can they still be excellent writers of fiction who sell lots of books?
Yes, this person is me.
I am a history teacher, you see, but since I passed my history degree and started teaching, I haven't picked up many books on academic subjects. All my love, devotion, time and interest now lies in fiction. I just don't think academic writers come even close to writers like Charles Dickens and J.R.R. Tolkien, and these are the writers I love to read, the writes that inspire me to write.
Thanks for taking the time to read my post.
Your friend, Tanbir
Dear Tanbir,
There are subgenres where you better not go: medical thriller, legal thriller, procedural-->anything where the plot is based on knowing stuff only the pro in the field would know. Miltiary techno-thriller, stuff like that. Also science-fiction based on specialized knowledge of biochemistry, quantum physics, etc.
However, this leaves you with endless possibilities in genres where you can do fine with good writing skills and personal research when the plot needs it. Sword&sorcery, high fantasy, non-specialized thrillers, horror, space opera, dystopia, post-apocalypse, paranormal, alternative reality, alternative history, and others.
If you look at the bestselling authors of today and yesterday, a minority of them depend on their knowledge of specific fields, while the majority depend on simply being good at writing. Best of luck.
As to the subsequent discussion on the merits of formal education--two of my favorite brits, Alan Moore and Shaun Hutson, were kicked out of school, yet became stars--however, I'd say managing to survive and finish school teaches one necessary social skills and coping mechanisms, while at least a year or two at university--especially the dreaded useless social sciences--helps teach one to think. And to, possibly, check out multiple sex partners and put that in the bank, to avert or dampen a later middle-life crisis based on 'lost opportunities'--because these opportunities were not, in fact, lost
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2011
- Messages
- 11,754
- Reaction score
- 12,208
- Location
- Atherton Tablelands
- Website
- snailseyeview.medium.com
Just adding to the chain of agreement. I agree with the bird and the cute dawg.
But I do disagree with Dondomat about giving a wide berth to certain subgenres. Tom Clancy didn't have a background in the military, but did all right with this military thrillers. I write procedurals and I ain't no detective*. But I do know detectives and I can do research.
* I'm not comparing myself to Clancy**.
** Not yet.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 23,124
- Reaction score
- 10,888
- Location
- Where faults collide
- Website
- doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I have to say that the title of this thread sounds like it should be the name of a craft book.
The Educated Novelist
Some of the things I learned in school have been helpful with my writing. But it's unlikely that anyone's going to get a degree that encompasses all the random and esoteric things people put in novels.
In addition to being imaginative, articulate, and having a deep love of books and stories, novelists need to know how to educate themselves about things that are relevant to whatever kinds of novels they write. It's possible to develop these skills without lots of formal schooling, as many posting in this thread have demonstrated.
I'm curious whether there are actually any medical thrillers written by MDs? My brother is an MD, and between taking care of his patients and dealing with the business end of his practice, he doesn't have time to read for fun, let alone write novels.
The Educated Novelist
Some of the things I learned in school have been helpful with my writing. But it's unlikely that anyone's going to get a degree that encompasses all the random and esoteric things people put in novels.
In addition to being imaginative, articulate, and having a deep love of books and stories, novelists need to know how to educate themselves about things that are relevant to whatever kinds of novels they write. It's possible to develop these skills without lots of formal schooling, as many posting in this thread have demonstrated.
I'm curious whether there are actually any medical thrillers written by MDs? My brother is an MD, and between taking care of his patients and dealing with the business end of his practice, he doesn't have time to read for fun, let alone write novels.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2011
- Messages
- 11,754
- Reaction score
- 12,208
- Location
- Atherton Tablelands
- Website
- snailseyeview.medium.com
I think it must be me. I keep getting offended this morning. To my ear, I am hearing I can't be successful because I'm a high school dropout. I am hearing I'm too stupid and ill equipped to research and that I should have a degree in certain fields before attempting the hard genres... Because I'm too stupid to do research as I am uneducated. There's just so much wrong here.
I'm not one of those people who rip into education as a meaningless waste of time. I would have pursued education, in a perfect world. As soon as I became homeless, however, my options became limited. Sure, I could have tried harder. Others have managed to do so. Even with the mental illness issues I faced. But I didn't. So here I am, approaching 50...and uneducated. In an institutional sense.
I will write about any damn thing that interests me. I am coherent enough to research anything I don't know. And I truly believe I am life educated and that I am not lacking in any way because of my lack of time spent in institutions of higher learning. I learned on the streets. Not just the streets of my youth, where I was when I should have been in school... But in the streets of the world...Nairobi, Paris, Madrid, America, Amsterdam, etc, etc, etc. Yeah... I was too weak to get there the traditional way, in your institutions of higher learning. But this does not make me an incompetent boob who can't write about certain things, yo. People are so fucking narrow minded and self-righteous.
I'm not one of those people who rip into education as a meaningless waste of time. I would have pursued education, in a perfect world. As soon as I became homeless, however, my options became limited. Sure, I could have tried harder. Others have managed to do so. Even with the mental illness issues I faced. But I didn't. So here I am, approaching 50...and uneducated. In an institutional sense.
I will write about any damn thing that interests me. I am coherent enough to research anything I don't know. And I truly believe I am life educated and that I am not lacking in any way because of my lack of time spent in institutions of higher learning. I learned on the streets. Not just the streets of my youth, where I was when I should have been in school... But in the streets of the world...Nairobi, Paris, Madrid, America, Amsterdam, etc, etc, etc. Yeah... I was too weak to get there the traditional way, in your institutions of higher learning. But this does not make me an incompetent boob who can't write about certain things, yo. People are so fucking narrow minded and self-righteous.
Last edited:
Yay! Now that's something I can get behind. LET'S WRITE ANYWAY. That's what I've been doing. And though I don't have a lot of education to bolster me in this endeavor, I do have the simple desire to tell a story. I am write, yo.
My university education was interesting and informative, but taught me absolutely nothing about writing fiction.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2012
- Messages
- 5,425
- Reaction score
- 1,911
- Location
- Denver, CO
- Website
- www.badfoodie.com
I'm no expert, but in my opinion, it helps to be well-read if you want to be a novelist.
Some types of education are a boon to that, some a hindrance.
I have a BS in Mathematics and Economics, an MBA with an emphasis on Technology Management, and I'm working on a MS in Forensic Accounting. This education does NOTHING to help me be a better writer. I can't think of a single time that Fourier transforms or GAAP principles were useful in writing either a short story or a novel. (I did one try to write a story about an economist turned PI. It sucked.)
Anything I've read that has helped my writing has been outside my formal education, not because of it.
On the other hand, I have a friend with a BA in Literature and an MA in Anthropology who uses what she learned to create stories from ancient myths and legends and incorporates ideas from classics I've never had time to read.
Basically, you use what you've got. Whether you're a high school dropout or a PhD.
What matters is putting words on paper, putting those words together into a good story, and having the courage to put it out into the world for others to read.
The paths to get to that point are many and varied. Education or lack thereof is neither an indicator nor a barrier to success.
Some types of education are a boon to that, some a hindrance.
I have a BS in Mathematics and Economics, an MBA with an emphasis on Technology Management, and I'm working on a MS in Forensic Accounting. This education does NOTHING to help me be a better writer. I can't think of a single time that Fourier transforms or GAAP principles were useful in writing either a short story or a novel. (I did one try to write a story about an economist turned PI. It sucked.)
Anything I've read that has helped my writing has been outside my formal education, not because of it.
On the other hand, I have a friend with a BA in Literature and an MA in Anthropology who uses what she learned to create stories from ancient myths and legends and incorporates ideas from classics I've never had time to read.
Basically, you use what you've got. Whether you're a high school dropout or a PhD.
What matters is putting words on paper, putting those words together into a good story, and having the courage to put it out into the world for others to read.
The paths to get to that point are many and varied. Education or lack thereof is neither an indicator nor a barrier to success.
Last edited:
- Status