But the reader needs to know this . . .

The problem isn't that there's an "info dump," the problem is always that the explanation is boring. If the explanation isn't boring, then there's no problem.

Discussions like this always leave me shaking my head. I can't think of another area of the arts with such misguided attitudes toward studying technique. I also find it hilariously hypocritical that so many people here are passionately insisting that newer writers need to ignore all "rules"-- except for their own "just write" rule, of course. Sheesh.

My take: seeking more knowledge and perspective about your art-- and even (gasp!) asking questions that might annoy people who've been doing it longer than you-- is a good thing. It can be a confusing thing, for sure, and sometimes it can send you down a wrong path for a while until you realize it and double back. But if you are a thinking person, studying technique will not ruin you.

And I call BS that "just WRITE, dammit" is always the answer. I've seen too many writers who have followed this maxim and continued to suck in exactly the same ways for decades.

The problem is that particularly newbies get sooooo concerned about what they shouldn't be doing that they never get around to what they should be - which is writing. No one is going to write a masterpiece on the first try. Or the second, or the third, or the 30th. Until one sits down and writes, they have no idea what questions to ask. We all should have the basic knowledge needed to tell a story - basic grammar, spelling, and an idea (from reading) how a story is told. Instead of trying to learn all these "rules" before getting started - get started and find out where your strengths and weaknesses are.

If you think the reader needs to know something, first ask why. Then figure out how to do it in the most interesting way possible. As to asking "Can I do this?" - the answer is almost always yes. And with practice and reading other works, you'll figure out how.

The problem for new writers is that when they ask for advice, they get a huge amount of conflicting information, much of it bad or specific only to the person offering it. Or both. I was very lucky when starting because the internet didn't exist.

The only 'musts' in writing, IMO, are the conventional formatting for the types of writing you perform (unless you are deliberately doing something experimental) and correct grammar.

The rest really is up to the writer.

screenscope said:

The rest really is up to the writer.

Click to expand...

While I appreciate the sentiment, this advice only works if the writer in question is:

a) a genius
b) an experienced writer

or

c) a voracious reader of the genre/type of writing they want to produce

The default response when new writers ask for advice should be "go read more books," IMO. Telling them "there are no rules, go create magic!" is setting them up to fail more often than not.

I agree with the people who say that the best way to learn how to write stories is to read them. People often ask questions, or self confidently state things about style and usage (or storytelling in a more general sense) on these forums, that make me wonder if they've ever actually read a novel, since grabbing one at random and poring through a few pages would probably answer the question or prove them wrong.

But of course, we don't all read the same novels. There are tons of ways to do things in fiction. Some approaches are timeless, but many things seem to go in and out of fashion, or vary with genre or style or with the individual writer. The rules and norms change. Tastes vary too.

I've been told I'm wrong in threads, that things I've read in novels (including recently published ones) can't possibly exist, or if they do, it's because the authors suck. It shakes my own confidence sometimes, and I should know better by now.

What's a newbie to make of this? Being told here that they must never do something that their favorite writers do, then being told that A. Those writers do it because they suck, or B. Those writers get away with doing it because they're brilliant enough to break the rules, isn't terribly helpful.

davidwestergaard said:

While I appreciate the sentiment, this advice only works if the writer in question is:

a) a genius
b) an experienced writer

or

c) a voracious reader of the genre/type of writing they want to produce

The default response when new writers ask for advice should be "go read more books," IMO. Telling them "there are no rules, go create magic!" is setting them up to fail more often than not.

Click to expand...

It should be so obvious to newbie writers that they must read that it's not worth including in any advice. They could hardly be serious about writing without doing so.

The problem, IMO, is the internet. It's too easy to ask incredibly basic questions and have them answered by hoards of people. It must be terribly confusing sorting out which advice is worth following, when much of it is of no use to the person asking or merely opinion.

Hence my, 'the rest is up to the writer.' At the end of the day, you have to trust your own instincts and work all this stuff out for yourself. There are no short cuts.

That's my opinion, anyway

I would like to observe that reading doesn't do a damn thing to improve one's writing unless one has also attempted to write.

I got a degree in English literature. I read voraciously. All kinds of books.

And then I tried to write. It has completely changed the experience of reading for me. And all those books I read before I tried to write? I missed the relevant aspects of them, because I wasn't reading them as a writer.

So to some extent, a person does need to spend time writing in a vacuum before the reading and advice and critiques can do any good. There has to be a slate to work on.

Katharine Tree said:

I would like to observe that reading doesn't do a damn thing to improve one's writing unless one has also attempted to write.

I got a degree in English literature. I read voraciously. All kinds of books.

And then I tried to write. It has completely changed the experience of reading for me. And all those books I read before I tried to write? I missed the relevant aspects of them, because I wasn't reading them as a writer.

So to some extent, a person does need to spend time writing in a vacuum before the reading and advice and critiques can do any good. There has to be a slate to work on.

Click to expand...

On the other side of the spectrum, reading had helped me tremendously. I know how to format things (paragraphs, etc.), I know pacing, I know about dangling carrots for the readers, etc. Now, how successful I am at it is another story, but at least I understand what goes into making a book. My strength is the plot. My weakness is the emotions. And you know what I hate reading? Poetry. I don't think it's a coincidence that conveying emotions well is a weakness of mine.

PandaMan said:

Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. Asking questions is an important part of the learning process. This forum gets these same questions over and over again because many writers pass through the same stages of the learning process. Nobody is born all knowing. We learn by trying, making mistakes, asking questions, and forging ahead. Rinse and repeat, until we become knowledgeable and are competent enough to kindly pass that knowledge down.

If a writer is already at an expert stage where it comes second nature for them, then I'm happy for them. Many, if not most writers, are not though. They need to ask questions, and yes, the same kinds of questions like world building that thousands of previous writers have asked before. That's the normal process of learning.

Writing stories is hard. If one has questions, they should be encouraged to ask questions, not be told to just go tell a story. That's rather meaningless to someone who is genuinely confused about how to do so.

That's like a math teacher telling a student to stop asking questions about how to do their math homework and just go do it.

Click to expand...

Exactly.

I agree with the spirit of the OP, but I follow a bit of a different model when I crit and when I read. It might be that I'm a tad on the patient side as a reader, but I won't close a book at the first mistake. I may close it at the second. An info-dump won't scare me off but it will if it becomes a pattern. I kind of look at it as cred: a writer gets a tiny bit to start and then the more I like the voice, characters, story, etc. the more I'll let them wander a bit.

My motivation for this is Guy Gavriel Kay's The Fionavar Tapestry, one of my favourite books. The first 100-odd pages of it did almost nothing for me the first time I read it. I really struggled to get into it, struggled with the characters, and felt it was unoriginal. I loved the next 650 pages unconditionally, and later learned the reason for the unoriginality was that he helped Christopher Tolkien edit J.R.R. Tolkien's work and it was pretty clear Kay way finding his own unique style and world a bit at the beginning of Fionavar. When I re-read it recently I picked up on a lot of subtlety in those 100 pages that I'd missed the first time, too.

I'm a bit the same way with games. I love games but gamewriting is still at a hit or miss level of sophistication so I have to forgive a lot more. I'm currently playing through the Mass Effect trilogy and the cliché characterization was a major problem up until I got a couple sidequests that I liked, which were enough to keep me going on the main stuff. It would be lovely if the writing was better or more consistent, but by game standards it's pretty good and that moves the discipline forward. We can't expect perfection, not in games or in books. We're human.

I do agree with the sanctity of story in all decisions, and breaks from that must be done with extreme care. Experience doesn't hurt. Neither does talent, though--someone with great voice can get away with more info-dumping and off-hand weirdness (Douglas Adams comes to mind). I confess to also getting occasionally irritated at the same basic questions, usually about SF/F, and the writer is always on first draft. I try to bite my tongue there, because they're learning, need encouragement, and Sage and Chompers are right. This is a place to learn and a place to make those mistakes from which learning comes. We don't all need a perfect book first time out. I like that AW is intense and constructively critical, but it's a big group and all the voices can sometimes lead a writer to perfectionism when it's not possible.

VeryBigBeard said:

I like that AW is intense and constructively critical, but it's a big group and all the voices can sometimes lead a writer to perfectionism when it's not possible.

Click to expand...

Which is why getting bogged down in all the questions when starting out is a problem for so many. They're already trying to make it perfect right out of the gate, instead of just writing to see where their problems are. Worse, many seem to think there's a grocery list of things to do and another list of things not to do, and if they just check off those lists, they'll be a good writer. It doesn't work that way.

An awful lot of writers did exceptionally well before the advent of writing forums - and believe it or not, an awful lot of writers are still doing exceptionally well without writing forums. How could they possibly do that? They read a lot and they wrote a lot. They allowed themselves to make mistakes and they learned from them - and much better than having someone tell them what they should or shouldn't do.

screenscope said:

It should be so obvious to newbie writers that they must read that it's not worth including in any advice. They could hardly be serious about writing without doing so.

Click to expand...

You'd be amazed. If we were to compile some kind of "best of AW" list for the most commonly repeated questions and thread topics, I suspect the "Can I write a novel if I don't like to read" question would be somewhere in the middle.

The problem, IMO, is the internet. It's too easy to ask incredibly basic questions and have them answered by hoards of people. It must be terribly confusing sorting out which advice is worth following, when much of it is of no use to the person asking or merely opinion.

Click to expand...

True, but the internet has also made it easy for people, including a number of pros, to post bulleted lists of "ten things agents are sick of seeing," or "The five worst ways to start your novel," or "twelve tired cliches," or, "fifteen common writing mistakes," or whatever. Even if the person isn't asking questions, it's hard not to come across someone saying something they've always enjoyed reading is bad. Who hasn't experienced that sick plummet of their gut when they realize they've done something in their novel that has its own entry in TV tropes or wherever?

There's often a kernel of truth in these lists, but the problem is that people tend to lose the proverbial forest for the trees. Even if the poster makes an effort to explain exactly why these things are often problematic and to discuss exceptions, people often just remember the "rule" and forget the context. And that's before we even get to the old "opinion versus fact" thing.

I think a lot of questions asked by newbies (in any profession) is a sort of subconscious attempt at approval. It's natural to find ways to stall instead of diving in. It's fear that's holding them back. What they're really looking for is a way to get around that fear and asking questions makes them feel like they're doing something, even when they're not.

I realize that's not always the case, but it's my two cents anyway.

This whole conversation would make a lot more sense to me if I knew exactly what an info-dump is.

(Let the varying opinions begin.)

guttersquid said:

This whole conversation would make a lot more sense to me if I knew exactly what an info-dump is.

(Let the varying opinions begin.)

Click to expand...

It's the dumping of info.

Basically, it's when the story is stopped so that background information can be explained to the reader. A true info-dump can go on for paragraphs or pages.

Despite its (generally well-earned) bad rep, sometimes an info-dump can be useful and necessary. It's all in the timing, and in how interestingly it's presented.

Michele AKA Twig said:

I think a lot of questions asked by newbies (in any profession) is a sort of subconscious attempt at approval. It's natural to find ways to stall instead of diving in. It's fear that's holding them back. What they're really looking for is a way to get around that fear and asking questions makes them feel like they're doing something, even when they're not.

I realize that's not always the case, but it's my two cents anyway.

Click to expand...

It can also be a way to try and get a conversation going. And of course, it can be a consequence of not knowing how, exactly, to word a question.

For example, one of the most common questions that gets the "Go read some books" answer: "How long should a chapter be?" or "Is it okay if my chapters are different lengths?"

On the surface, it seems incredibly vacuous. Even if one doesn't have an e-reader, it's pretty easy to grab some books from your shelves and get a rough idea of chapter length, at least, and to easily tell whether or not they're all the same length.

But the person asking the question might really be wanting to engage other writers/readers in a conversation about their own preferences, or they may simply want to surreptitiously determine whether or not the kinds of books they read are typical.

Of course, it's easy to say, "Why not just ask that then?" But it can be darned embarrassing to volunteer an opinion without testing the waters first, especially if you're new. And we all know how mortifying it can be to find out that an author you've read and loved for years is regarded as extremely lowbrow by your fellow aspiring writers, or that the type of novel you most love in your genre is considered to be out of date, passe (and good riddance) or otherwise pointless to write by most of your fellow members.

Brief aside: I absolutely adore TV Tropes. It's a total time drain but it's a valuable time drain. Nothing replaces reading actual books closely but I would say TV Tropes, read with a critical eye, is pretty close. It sure is intimidating as Roxxsmom said, but it's basically a compilation of everything a book (possibly) does, why, and how it works. I've learned a tonne on there. A lot of the tropes I already knew, but I've come to view those tropes that appear in my own work as a kind of opportunity to expand on or invert what exists. Not always, because TV Tropes also shows that tropes well-used work perfectly. I show the "Tropes Are Not Bad; Tropes Are Not Good" page to anyone who's going on about how a piece is too cliché or completely unique. It gets people (and me) thinking critically about stuff, and shows that nothing is black and white.

I will also say that this place is super intimidating. I lurked for a long time before joining so I got a pretty good idea how many pros and super-smart people there are hanging out here. That's why I love it. I still haven't even started a thread, though, let alone posted work on SYW. I will when I'm ready, but it's scary, knowing that phrasing something the wrong way might get some of the high-ups disagreeing with me. That's cool, that's how we learn and critique and think. I can see how someone would, being nervous about that, reduce a post to something so innocuous that it becomes annoying in its meaninglessness. That might end up being my first thread.

A lot of writers struggle to finish first drafts, too. Like, a staggering percentage, I expect. So much of this craft becomes so much easier when you have a book or two in the trunk and a few really obvious mistakes in hindsight. Heck, I'm nowhere near a published author and I still feel (semi) qualified to talk about this stuff because I've broken a lot of stories and my trunk's overflowing.

I agree that many times 'just write' isn't helpful.

I agree that many times 'read books, it'll make you a better writer' isn't helpful.

I even agree that nothing makes me roll my eyes harder than to have someone to talk about 'needing a [prologue, large info dump chapter, etc] to explain to the reader this important fact because they need to know and that the story won't make any sense at all unless they have it spelled out for them in explicit detail' and then simply not let go of it when it's suggested they try smoothing through their prose first, continuing to discuss its necessity as if the reader is some dolt who wouldn't be able to understand the sheer brilliance of their prose unless the author is there to hold their hand and explain in the patient tones of a first-grade teacher.

screenscope said:

It should be so obvious to newbie writers that they must read that it's not worth including in any advice. They could hardly be serious about writing without doing so.

Click to expand...

What Roxxsmom said.

I already explained a reason as to why I'm not interested in reading, it's a personal situation, it's not as if I'm some lazy person or whatever. (Link)

Click to expand...

I want to get into writing but my question is: "Is there ever been any real-time authors that didnt actually previously read books, as in, more than 4 books?" because i feel that i can make it, and that i have a unique mind (Link)

Click to expand...

and re reading "ya", whatever that is, books are a luxury i cannot afford (Link)

Click to expand...

I HATE reading novels, and find most just stupid and pointless. (Link)

Click to expand...

I do not read books & I do not believe in criticism, yet I aspire to be a great writer. Am I doomed? (Link)

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it's not at all obvious to some newer writers.

My biggest comment to any writer asking common questions as the OP has stated, is a simple question:

Are you writing within a formula where you plug in details and the story writes itself?

(The MadLibs syndrome, I call it.)

Because unless you're writing in said formula, every story is unique, just like every writer. What works for one story, could tank horribly in the next. One writer pulls off a magnificent series of no nos in one story, so new writers think "I CAN DO THAT!" but they don't realize that it only worked because of the story it was in. Trying to explain that to a new writer can be ... difficult. As can getting them to listen to many things beyond "your prose is a gift from the gods and perfect without any changes."

So no advice to any writer is tried and true. Because it changes from story to story to story.

Tell them to just write the story? Depends on if they can even get words to the page.

Tell them to read more books? Depends on the writer and their existing habits.

Break them of their bad habits? Might take more than just another writer shaking their head and red lining their prose.

But of course, these are just my humble thoughts. YMMV.

Lol. I apologize for my iterations of that question in the past.

But, I think everyone (experts and newbies alike) need to realize that this site does have it's limits in terms of applying learned skills to unique situations & works. If someone has a problem that the site can't readily solve, it tends to be unlikely that anyone other than the original poster is ever going to solve it.

But, that clearly doesn't mean the site isn't useful overall. I learned a hell of a lot from here that I've been applying ever since. A lot of it was oddly difficult for my mind to grasp, even if it seemed simple to the person saying it, but I stuck with it, observed & played around with it until it made sense and I could use it.

I kind of agree with the OP. Just write. Get the story down. The first draft does not have to be the final draft. Write it. When you go back to edit and re-read it, pay close attention to your backstory and info dumping. Then fix it.

I learned a lot from this place, and books, and random blogs and tips and things on the internet. The most I learned from though, writing. When I finished my very first first draft, I could feel how much I learned before I even got to the end. When I went back and read it for the first time, boom. Way too much info dumping here. This part isn't even needed. I can weave that part in later. Just things like that. You will be surprised how much you can learn just from writing. I'm not saying don't ask questions or anything, I'm just saying, for me anyway when I first started, reading and writing was my biggest learning tool.