MCs who lose sympathy

greendragon · Mar 5, 2015

I'm writing a historical fantasy where neither MC (one M, one F) are bad people, but they make bad decisions. I'm trying not to cross the line and have readers lose sympathy for them.

Male MC is a player and a gambler. He dallies with a young woman (he's 18, she's 16, in 1846) at a fair. Then he meets her sister (Female MC), and they fall in love. But the sister is married off to someone else against her consent. (under the threat of a beating from her father).

She's whisked off to Scotland (her husband's home) while Male MC chases, with her sister and his cousin in tow. Sister tries to win him back several times, and succeeds finally, at least physically. (Point 1 - cheating on his beloved!) He then is disgusted at himself and rejects her further attempts. There's a hint she used potions/herblore to increase his need for her.

Female MC - bad temper. Shrewish at times. Doesn't want anything to do with her new husband, though he's kind to her. He has no spine and his brother (who is with them) is a brute, and beats her when she tries to escape. She puts herbs in the brute's drink to make him ill, though she considers putting enough in to kill him. In the end, they both die in battle, and her herbs probably helped the brute die. (Point 2 - she could be a murderess).

Male MC finds female MC, and they head back to Ireland, with sister and cousin. Sister and female MC fight over male MC< and he's secretly pleased (Point 3 - arrogant male). Soldiers come and they split up to escape - resulting in sister and cousin getting beat up.

Female MC is pissed at Male MC for sister, but eventually relents. Cousin gets a mob up and chases them out of town for witchcraft, blaming Male MC for their beating.

Have you lost sympathy for them yet? Or are they just human?

Reziac · Mar 5, 2015

It sounds nicely complicated. And for me, sympathy doesn't enter into it -- rather, whether you keep me interested. As described, they sound like real people with real foibles, which is a whole lot more interesting than being merely 'sympathetic'. (And anyway, I detest "save the cat" incidents.)

Frex, Rothfuss and The Name of the Wind -- the MC is self-absorbed and manipulative and I don't like him at all, in fact I'm to where I react "serves you right" as he gets hoist by his own petard, but I did keep reading.

Maze Runner · Mar 5, 2015

I like to read and write characters that you're not quite sure what you think of them, MCs included. I think we all draw the line in different places. What one might be turned off by, another is intrigued. I think your only guide is where you draw the line. Market considerations aside, of which I know very little, it's exhausting to have to dance to all these tunes; and worse, I think it homogenizes and destroys a lot of what could have been great work. Just my not 2 cents, but 1. What you described in the OP would not put me off.

atombaby · Mar 5, 2015

Honestly, I didn't have a whole lot of sympathy for the male MC from the beginning, and his demise makes me happy. My sympathy immediately went with the female MC (being married against her choice does that to me). When you say that "they both die," do you mean her brother-in-law and herself? Or her husband? By the end though, I was kind of hoping the female MC would open her eyes and give the male MC a good smack upside the head. Unless there's something truly endearing about him to prevent me from despising him.

Like Reziac said, the storyline kept me interested and I was rooting for the female MC throughout.

There have also been stories I've read where I loathe certain characters: take Stendhal's Red and the Black. The male MC is a dreamer who gets involved with his boss's pretentious wife, and in the end, he ends up doing something so dramatic, while the cheating wife carries on with her life and I was left wondering if she really cared about him or not. I was really hoping she'd get what she deserved but she didn't.

Point being, you can write a story any way you want. I think it's good to have a despicable or immoral character because that will pull the reader in even more.

Reziac · Mar 5, 2015

Maze Runner said:
I like to read and write characters that you're not quite sure what you think of them, MCs included. I think we all draw the line in different places. What one might be turned off by, another is intrigued. I think your only guide is where you draw the line. Market considerations aside, of which I know very little, it's exhausting to have to dance to all these tunes; and worse, I think it homogenizes and destroys a lot of what could have been great work.

Adding a penny!!

Maze Runner · Mar 5, 2015

Reziac said:
Adding a penny!!

Hey, that's a 100% raise. Thanks!

JSPembroke · Mar 5, 2015

I think the key is to make sure that the protagonist(s) have characteristics that allow them to relate to the reader, whether those characteristics are positive or not. A reader can sympathize with an MC who isn't perfect or who is fact downright rotten, so long as the character has some humanity.

Coming from a fantasy bent, but I think of Elric of Melnibone, from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series. By most moral standards, Elric is a thief, murderer, betrayer, and instigator of genocide. He's also wracked with guilt, self-doubt, and is constantly torn between what he wants and what needs to do. Most of us can identify with those emotions, which makes it easier for the reader to see themselves in the main character, empathize, and not lose interest in the MC's plight.

Reziac · Mar 5, 2015

JSPembroke said:
Coming from a fantasy bent, but I think of Elric of Melnibone, from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series. By most moral standards, Elric is a thief, murderer, betrayer, and instigator of genocide. He's also wracked with guilt, self-doubt, and is constantly torn between what he wants and what needs to do.

One of my all-time favorite characters.

Usher · Mar 5, 2015

Honestly, there isn't enough here for me to know. How you introduce them, they interact, they speak, they behave will all determine whether or not they continue to hold my interest.

Roxxsmom · Mar 5, 2015

I remember being at a workshop once where the speakers on a panel on characterization said that readers are often very forgiving of characters who screw up, who spin their wheels, and get stuck on things, but they tend to get impatient with characters who aren't functioning as well as they can, given their situation.

I take that to mean that if you make your character dimmer or more obnoxious or more passive (especially) than it makes sense for them to be in their situation, many readers will grow frustrated with them in a way that isn't good. Of course, different readers will grow impatient with different things, because we have our own issues that we bring to the table, and because we might have our own assessment of what "functioning as well as they can" might mean in a given situation, based on our own experiences and beliefs.

So readers are more likely to be forgiving of bad choices if they can see why the character is making them and it makes at least some sense to them.

clemency · Mar 5, 2015

I'm dealing with something similar in my WIP. Like Roxxsmom above, I think characters can make bad decisions without becoming cartoonish as long as the reason they made those decisions is evident. If you can find a reason for your female MC to have to consider murder that the reader can follow and believe then she'll work. You might find it helps to write some backstory to explain why she reacts to situations the way she does, and even if you don't include any of it you might find that the way she acts in the time frame of your story because of what you know outside of it is enough to make her into a believable character.

If you want to write a bleak story where everything goes wrong for the protagonists, then it's going to impact the reader a lot better if they feel like they'd have made the same choices given the same circumstances.

greendragon · Mar 5, 2015

Thanks for all your input! THe two that die are the husband and his brother, the brute that beat the female MC. Her father beat her as well, so she definitely has impetus.

BethS · Mar 6, 2015

greendragon said:
Have you lost sympathy for them yet? Or are they just human?

Well, the female MC sounds like an unpleasant person from start to finish. The male MC sounds like a feckless idiot led around by his gonads. So for me, it's not a matter of losing sympathy; I never had any for them to begin with.

Sorry, but you asked!

Sonsofthepharaohs · Mar 6, 2015

BethS said:
Well, the female MC sounds like an unpleasant person from start to finish. The male MC sounds like a feckless idiot led around by his gonads. So for me, it's not a matter of losing sympathy; I never had any for them to begin with.

Sorry, but you asked!

I wasn't going to say, but since Beth did... I sort of agree. The fmc sounds like the female antag of my novel. I'd have no trouble seeing her as a villain, but not someone I'd root for.

The mmc just sounds like a lech with no morals or self control. The sort of character who provides background texture or comic relief, but not the hero.

Can you bolt on a few more redeeming qualities?

greendragon · Mar 6, 2015

BethS: Yup! I did ask

This is my first time writing a male POV, and I am worried I made him too much of a feckless gonad-driven man. He IS 18, after all, and many men that age think of little else. Meeting and falling for FMC is really the only focus he's yet had in his life.

MMC - he loves his Da, and would do anything for him or his family. He takes care of his brother (who is a gentle giant, but simple). And he's determined to protect the FMC from those who beat her; first her father, then her brother-in-law. He's a great salesman (their family runs a leather working business, in an Irish Traveller tribe).

FMC - She has great spirit and never gives up her own will. She sees the beauty in the world in music and stories. (they both love the stories). She helps others in distress without a thought to her own safety, and gets in trouble for it.

Bing Z · Mar 6, 2015

I agree with Beth and Kallithrix that I didn't have sympathy with your characters to start with.

The start of your book reminds me of the film Titanic. Rose was arranged for a marriage for her family's good when she encounters a penniless Jack. Rose is already in distraught over the marriage and tries to kill herself (sympathy) when Jack saves her (sympathy). They are attracted to each other. Jack pursues, but Rose gets into a back and forth of rebuff and acceptance, struggling between fulfillment of family duty and love (sympathy). Further, there's struggle. That's good.

Your characters need some sympathize-able qualities in them (preferable to start with). Pursuing one's personal goal or lust isn't necessary one.

Walter White in Breaking Bad makes meth for his family's good. Frank Underwood in Netflix's House of Cards is bad to the bone but he believes his goal serves the world best. And he struggles and fights against people who are as bad or worse, at times as an underdog one can root for. Frank's first scene is very interesting. He kills a dog that is badly injured in a traffic accident instead of calling for a vet. He does so believing this is best for the dog. It may be wrong, but he believes he's doing the right thing.

Give your characters some rootable qualities. Then the plot may work (maybe with some little twists).

Reziac · Mar 6, 2015

greendragon said:
BethS: Yup! I did ask This is my first time writing a male POV, and I am worried I made him too much of a feckless gonad-driven man. He IS 18, after all, and many men that age think of little else. Meeting and falling for FMC is really the only focus he's yet had in his life.

MMC - he loves his Da, and would do anything for him or his family. He takes care of his brother (who is a gentle giant, but simple). And he's determined to protect the FMC from those who beat her; first her father, then her brother-in-law. He's a great salesman (their family runs a leather working business, in an Irish Traveller tribe).

FMC - She has great spirit and never gives up her own will. She sees the beauty in the world in music and stories. (they both love the stories). She helps others in distress without a thought to her own safety, and gets in trouble for it.

Goes to show how we can't decide these things from a one-paragraph description -- here one description makes us hate 'em, the other love 'em, all before we've read a single word of the manuscript. Not real fair to the characters, is it?

And there's so much to a well-rounded character that won't come out til something in the story brings it out -- how do you put that in a one-liner?

They sound like people to me. I can't really judge anything else without reading the story.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 6, 2015

Not sympathy, but empathy. Empathy matters, not sympathy. Empathy what justifies the actions of any character, and if a character loses empathy, you probably lose readers.

greendragon · Mar 6, 2015

Good points, all! Thanks for your input. I do think they are likable characters, but I'm my own worst critic.

I had a couple beta readers (the male didn't like the MMC, the female didn't like the FMC) complain about them, so I thought I'd throw out the question. I have no problem adding some tidbits to cement their likability before they start becoming 'poor-decision-making Rob Lowe'.

Marlys · Mar 6, 2015

I think you can get away with some of the negative stuff due to the youth of your MCs--these are essentially high-school age kids, so they should make stupid mistakes. The key is that they learn from them. Like, the male MC should learn that letting his dick lead the way can really mess things up. The female MC might learn a lesson about kindness from the husband she initially doesn't like.

So I'd say you have great opportunities for coming-of-age here. Your characters' change and growth as the story progresses could really help readers identify with them.

greendragon · Mar 6, 2015

That's precisely what I hope to do, Marlys. The FMC sort of holds her late husband's kindness like a charm, and tries to emulate him. She uses it as a salve to her own guilt, especially when her parents accuse her of murder.

kwanzaabot · Mar 10, 2015

Sympathy is overrated. Some of the best characters I've read or watched have been incorrigible assholes.

Greg House and Tyrion Lannister are the first two that come to mind.

It doesn't matter if they're unsympathetic, what matters is that they're interesting.

Katharine Tree · Mar 10, 2015

kwanzaabot said:
Greg House and Tyrion Lannister are the first two that come to mind.

Tyrion Lannister is one of the most fantastically sympathetic characters in all of literature. How is he anything but sympathetic?

kwanzaabot · Mar 10, 2015

Katharine Tree said:
Tyrion Lannister is one of the most fantastically sympathetic characters in all of literature. How is he anything but sympathetic?

In my experience, opinions are kind of divided when it comes to him, but I guess for me it boils down to that fact that he's not exactly a nice person. He was dealt a bad hand by life, and gets kicked whenever he's down, but it's hard to overlook the awful things he's done. Murdering Shae, for example.

Ravioli · Mar 10, 2015

kwanzaabot said:
In my experience, opinions are kind of divided when it comes to him, but I guess for me it boils down to that fact that he's not exactly a nice person. He was dealt a bad hand by life, and gets kicked whenever he's down, but it's hard to overlook the awful things he's done. Murdering Shae, for example.

That woman was a lying traitor who got what was coming to her for condemning him to death with her false testimony instead of switching her much self-praised brain on and realizing he had kicked her out to save her life. So, uh, she doesn't count as a blemish on his white vest to me. Traitors are the worst. She didn't have to do that. She did it for the fun of petty vengeance for a wrong that has been done to her only in her imagination.

MCs who lose sympathy

greendragon

Reziac

Resident Alien

Maze Runner

atombaby

nice & cynical

Reziac

Resident Alien

Maze Runner

JSPembroke

Escaped Mental Patient

Reziac

Resident Alien

Usher

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

clemency

greendragon

BethS

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

greendragon

Bing Z

illiterate primate

Reziac

Resident Alien

Jamesaritchie

greendragon

Marlys

Resist. Love. Go outside.

greendragon

kwanzaabot

Katharine Tree

Þæt wæs god cyning

kwanzaabot

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady