How to Identify Passive Voice - picture

Jamesaritchie

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The zombie approach doesn't work either.
In general the passive voice is simple; the subject is being acted upon: The drum was being beaten by Stan. That sentence turned into the indicative would be: Stan was beating on the drum.
There are times and places for the passive voice, so there is no reason to be concerned, unless you use the passive in excess.

I don't think there's ever a time for the passive voice to be used accidentally. Even one passive sentence you didn't intend to be passive is excess.

You have to know you're writing a passive sentence, and you have to have a reason for that sentence to be passive, or it simply won't work.
 

Bufty

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Why would you want to bother to write a passive version of Jane went to the store?

You obviously know that 'Jane went to the store' is an active sentence and why.

That's all you need to know to be able to see when a sentence is obviously passive.

BUT. There's nothing wrong with a passive sentence if it says what you intend to say with flow and clarity, and a passive sentence will stand out like a sore thumb if it doesn't fit into the narrative.

It really isn't worth worrying about, Ken.:Hug2:

Thanks. The additional explanations helped.

So it seems like passive sentences are the reverse of how a sentence would usually read, though not always, and that the verb to be is an indication that a sentence may be passive.

Will consider the matter more and try to understand it from a grammatical standpoint, with subjects and objects.

ps Is there a way to write a passive version of Jane went to the store ?

The store was went to by Jane. (Maybe some sentences can only be active without major rewrites?)
 

Jamesaritchie

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Or: It was wagered by Swan that Ken was better educated by a load of detailed grammatical humph than by Bufty's rude and complaining alternate explanation.

I'm waiting for three followup events:
(1) Someone will say the sentence above is passive because "was" is used twice.
(2) Someone else will say the sentence is too long and needs a comma somewhere for a pause.
(3) "Turkeys" are more seasonal this month than either zombies or elves.

Whatever they say about the sentence, I suspect all would agree that it's very poorly written. But, yeah, it's difficult to argue with what it says.
 

Jamesaritchie

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And that load of humph is supposed to clarify the issue for anyone who can't identify a passive sentence without a gimmick?

Seems pretty simple and clear to me. It certainly shows one thing clearly. If you don't follow what the post says about passive, you need to go nback to basics because this is very basic grammar. It's about as basic as you can get, outside or noun, verb, adverb, adjective.

A write who doesn't understand it, and who can't follow it is not going to write well.

The solution is to go find a basic grammar book, and begin on page one, rather than jumping ahead to some area that gives you problems. In grammar, you have to lay the foundation first.

At any rate, that post was pretty darned basic, and a writer who can't understand it needs serious grammar help.
 

King Neptune

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Thanks. The additional explanations helped.

So it seems like passive sentences are the reverse of how a sentence would usually read, though not always, and that the verb to be is an indication that a sentence may be passive.

Will consider the matter more and try to understand it from a grammatical standpoint, with subjects and objects.

ps Is there a way to write a passive version of Jane went to the store ?

The store was went to by Jane. (Maybe some sentences can only be active without major rewrites?)

Jane was taken to the store.
 

Ken

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Instinctively, maybe. Still would like to know the mechanics and terminology, like you and others here. It must be awesome to be able to evaluate sentences and be able to say what's what. (I sense that it's a subject I will never be much good at, similar my attempt to learn a foreign language, but there's no reason I can't improve a bit.) So I suppose I'll have to read up on grammar some more.
 

King Neptune

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Instinctively, maybe. Still would like to know the mechanics and terminology, like you and others here. It must be awesome to be able to evaluate sentences and be able to say what's what. (I sense that it's a subject I will never be much good at, similar my attempt to learn a foreign language, but there's no reason I can't improve a bit.) So I suppose I'll have to read up on grammar some more.

The terminology is not worth remembering, because there are several terms for almost everything in grammar, and formal grammar was derived from the ways that good communicators use language.

If you can find a used high school or introductory college grammar textbook, then read through it. Style manuals assume that anyone using them knows quite a lot, but a high school freshman isn't assumed to know anything, so there are more explanations and examples.
 

Chase

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Originally Posted by Chase:
Or: It was wagered by Swan that Ken was better educated by a load of detailed grammatical humph than by Bufty's rude and complaining alternate explanation.

Whatever they say about the sentence, I suspect all would agree that it's very poorly written.

Chase, a fellow writer, was disrespected by James. Chase would complain, but all the mods would side with James. :D
 

Dawnstorm

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Chase, a fellow writer, was disrespected by James. Chase would complain, but all the mods would side with James. :D

Chase wasn't disrepected at all. Chase's sentence was deemed poorly written. The rule that fellow writers must be respected was never broken. The passive voice, however, is constantly maligned as a second rate gramamtical structure.

That said, it has to be admitted that the passive voice can be overused. By turkeys.

Seriously, though:

ps Is there a way to write a passive version of Jane went to the store?

Maybe.

The store was went to by Jane.
Almost. "was went" --> "was gone".

You've discovered the prepositional passive. The verb "to go" doesn't take an object, so you can't put what would usually be the object of the verb into the subject position. Normally, that would mean that there is no passive voice version of "to go". But prepositions do take objects, and it's sometimes (but not always) possible to use the object of the preposition rather than the object of the verb.

Out of context, it's impossible to tell whether a sentence as "The store was gone to by Jane," is acceptable, and even then it's debatable.

The textbook example for a prepositional passive is a man looking at the messed up sheets, and saying "This bed has been slept in."

(Maybe some sentences can only be active without major rewrites?)
Yes. A verb needs to be able to take an object to be put into the passive voice (with the possible exception of the prepositional passive).

Considering your posts in this thread, I'm not worried about your passive voice usage.
 
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Ken

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If you can find a used high school or introductory college grammar textbook, then read through it.

I'm going to give this a go. Maybe simply searching Amazon for high school grammar textbooks would bring up a selection of books.

Thanks Dawnstorm. Interesting stuff. You've given me a lot to consider. I wonder how prepositional passives plays out in other languages? Maybe there's more allowance. The store was gone to by Jane may be totally acceptable. A sentence of such sort might actually be useful if one wanted to draw attention to the store rather than to Jane.

Macy's had a great selection. The store was gone to by nearly everyone in town. (Or something of the sort. Not the best example.)
 

blacbird

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George was killed by me - is a passive sentence because the subject George isn't doing anything.

Well . . . he did die. But the key signal is that word "by" which often identifies passive sentence constructions. It doesn't identify all of them, and the word "by" alone isn't a slam-dunk signal of passive construction, but it commonly is. go looking for its use in your writing, and I'll bet a nickel you'll uncover passive sentence constructions. Hell, even a dime will be wagered by me.

caw
 

blacbird

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Is there a way to write a passive version of Jane went to the store ?

The store was went gone to by Jane.

You answered your own question, except for getting the verb conjugation wrong, corrrected above.

It's also an excellent example of bad usage of passive voice. Hardly anybody would write the sentence that way. Other examples are less blatant, but not hard to find. And note that the active sentence is expressed in five words, the passive one takes eight.

caw
 

Bufty

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I don't disagree with your proposed solution.

But if someone doesn't understand the very basic and simple concept of what makes a sentence passive, then I doubt they're going to follow a University type explanation that includes phrases like -

Agent/Patient- demoted to an oblique, optional argument of the verb...


=Jamesaritchie;9152017]Seems pretty simple and clear to me. It certainly shows one thing clearly. If you don't follow what the post says about passive, you need to go nback to basics because this is very basic grammar. It's about as basic as you can get, outside or noun, verb, adverb, adjective.

A write who doesn't understand it, and who can't follow it is not going to write well.

The solution is to go find a basic grammar book, and begin on page one, rather than jumping ahead to some area that gives you problems. In grammar, you have to lay the foundation first.

At any rate, that post was pretty darned basic, and a writer who can't understand it needs serious grammar help.
 
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Ken

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Thnx blacbird. True too about length. If you can say it in less that may just be an indication that what you have is passive. Lots of other reasons as well, of course, possibly problematical as well.
 

TheNighSwan

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But if someone doesn't understand the very basic and simple concept of what makes a sentence passive, then I doubt they're going to follow a University type explanation that includes phrases like -

Agent/Patient- demoted to an oblique, optional argument of the verb...

It's almost as if you're quoting out of context terms which I have defined and/or given examples for.
 

Bufty

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I don't recall reading any definition of that quoted phrase, which, together with others, seemed only to demonstrate the depth of your academic notes and your apparent knowledge of what such a convoluted phrase is supposed to mean.

As a reader, some of the terms seemed totally unnecessary and contributed nothing.

I didn't get as far as the passive sentence examples, which may have been clearer on their own, but if others benefited from your explanations, good for them.

It's almost as if you're quoting out of context terms which I have defined and/or given examples for.
 

Darron

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I like the back and forth people are having here, though sometimes it seemed a little sour because of the ease at pointing out passive voice. I thought the picture was amusing for October and good for catching yourself or others on a first draft if you think it's just not right and you can go and fix yourself. I wouldn't downplay the usefulness of touching up on grammar skills for any level of writer every now and then because sometimes we all fall out of practice.
I guess I took it the wrong way when people look down on the picture because it isn't perfect or too simple and I didn't mean for it to be a 100% rule. Even though not perfect any tool, however crude, can help someone make themselves better.
I don't pick on students that have to say "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" to remember the order of operations and I view this as a simple little reminder as well. Just like PEMDAS, not perfect, but useful.
 

Bufty

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The Forum is for writers at all stages and this particular sub-Forum is intended to help folk with grammar and syntax issues. Your contributions will mean a lot to many folk, I am sure, but simple/basic questions are usually best answered in simple/basic terms.

I can do more here than let the initial words from your introductory post do the final talking -

So this is, as redundantly stated by this sentence, my introductory post. As you'll see, I tend to get overly formal, stilted and detailed in those kinds of post, so, if you feel my verbosity is intimidating, rest assured I am not (always) like that most of the time.

I do understand, but you should, too :Hug2:

I've explicitely defined "agent" and "patient", and given an example that made clear what "oblique, optional argument" meant.

As for "demoted", if you really can't deduce in context what this verb means when it's used just after "promoted", I don't know how any amount of explanation would clarify to you what I have to say.

I write my posts with the idea that this is a writing forum for grown ups, not the Simple English Wikipedia.
 

TheNighSwan

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Well, you can keep telling yourself that my posts are too difficult. Meanwhile, the persons they were actually adressed to have thanked me and given me rep points over them
 

Bufty

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I didn't say I found them too difficult. But, as I already said - if folk made it to the end and found that particular post helpful - good for them. And take good care of those rep points.;)

Well, you can keep telling yourself that my posts are too difficult. Meanwhile, the persons they were actually adressed to have thanked me and given me rep points over them
 
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ninja

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No. No more than you would similarly evaluate the use of any other verb or grammatical form. "To be" is the most commonly applied verb form, in any language I can think of. I just used one in there, did you see that?. I should struggle to replace that with . . . what? In most usages, forms of To be are invisible to the reader . . . crap, I just used another one.

Oh, but wait . . . you yourself used two of them in the material I quoted above.

"Passive voice" is not about use of To be verb forms. It is about transposition of subject and object in a sentence. I continue to be mystified as to why so many people have the idea that To be verb forms are linguistic demons.

caw

Because that is what gets taught sometimes. I was not an ESL student but did have a Business Writing teacher in high school teach us this exact "rule" regarding "to be" verbs and the passive voice.
 

BethS

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ps Is there a way to write a passive version of Jane went to the store ?

The store was went to by Jane. (Maybe some sentences can only be active without major rewrites?)

"The store was visited by Jane" would probably be the least egregious way to write it. Though probably no one would write it that way, unless they had a really good reason to do it.
 
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