When do you use a semi colon?

guttersquid

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I mostly use semicolons when I have several simple ideas to get across and I'm trying to avoid too many short, choppy sentences.

"I went to the store; Tom said we need lettuce." This is how I would write it.

"I went to the store, Tom said we need lettuce." This is what was recommended.

There are specific rules for using semicolons, and none of them are to avoid short, choppy sentences, so your first example is wrong. The clauses are still short and choppy, so you've accomplished nothing.

There is a certain amount of latitude given to comma splices in dialogue (I don't know why), but I would never use a comma splice in my own writing. The simplest way to write that sentence is to use a period.

"I went to the store. Tom said we need lettuce."

Another way would be to insert a dialogue tag.

"I went to the store," I said. "Tom said we need lettuce."
 
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cornflake

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There are specific rules for using semicolons, and none of them are to avoid short, choppy sentences, so your first example is wrong. The clauses are still short and choppy, so you've accomplished nothing.

There is a certain amount of latitude given to comma splices in dialogue (I don't know why), but I would never use a comma splice in my own writing. The simplest way to write that sentence is to use a period.

"I went to the store. Tom said we need lettuce."

Another, more elegant, way would be to insert a dialogue tag.

"I went to the store," I said. "Tom said we need lettuce."

Cathleen is correct about semicolon purpose.

There are three ways to deal with independent clauses - a period, a semicolon, and a comma/conjunction. There are several reasons to join independent clauses into one sentence, instead of keeping them as separate sentences. One reason is to avoid sounding like a third grader.

You can choose to keep the sentences separate, or not use semicolons, or feel, as JAR does above, that they're somehow always bad, but that is one of the purposes of semicolons.
 
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Chase

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I had a beta tell me to use a comma splice instead if it was contained in dialogue.

I've been told it, too, and seen it. I used to think it was because the writer didn't know how to use a semicolon, but some otherwise educated seem to have bought into the hogwash*.

*Hogwash: Commas produce pauses:rolleyes:, but in the case of dialog, they speed it up.:Shrug:

Dialog is often unclear as it is, so making it even muckier doesn't do readers much of a favor.

There is a certain amount of latitude given to comma splices in dialogue. . . .

No. I think "latitude" in this case is more self-indulgence or the buying into another bogus "rule" that's not a rule.

I would never use a comma splice in my own writing.

Me neither--it's confusing anywhere.
 

King Neptune

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I mostly use semicolons when I have several simple ideas to get across and I'm trying to avoid too many short, choppy sentences.

Which brings up my question, since this quite often happens in dialogue.

I had a beta tell me to use a comma splice instead if it was contained in dialogue.

Seriously? I don't get why there would be different punctuation rules inside quotations, but I thought I should probably check.

For clarity:

"I went to the store; Tom said we need lettuce." This is how I would write it.

"I went to the store, Tom said we need lettuce." This is what was recommended.

Any input from grammar faeries is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I strongly agree with Cornflake. Semicolons are wonderful ways to eliminate comma splices.
 

Once!

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I'm with James on this one. A semi-colon may be technically correct, but it often feels like a piece of gaffer tape sticking together two bits of text that don't really want to be joined.

I use semi-colons in technical documents but rarely in fiction.
 

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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Cathleen is correct about semicolon purpose.

There are three ways to deal with independent clauses - a period, a semicolon, and a comma/conjunction. There are several reasons to join independent clauses into one sentence, instead of keeping them as separate sentences. One reason is to avoid sounding like a third grader.

You can choose to keep the sentences separate, or not use semicolons, or feel, as JAR does above, that they're somehow always bad, but that is one of the purposes of semicolons.

I believe that one of the reasons semicolons are disdained by some is because they are too often misused. Writers either 1) don't know the rules, 2) see semicolons misused in books,* or 3) get misinformation from places like writers' forums and run with it.

Excluding the use of separating items in a list, there are only two uses for a semicolon.

1) to join two independent clauses when the second clause restates the first.

Road construction has hindered travel around town; streets have become covered with bulldozers, trucks, and cones.

2) to join two independent clauses when the second clause begins with a conjunctive adverb (however, therefore, moreover, furthermore, thus, meanwhile, nonetheless, otherwise) or a transition (in fact, for example, that is, for instance, in addition, in other words, on the other hand, even so).

Terrorism in the U.S. has become a recent concern; in fact, the concern for America's safety has led to an awareness of global terrorism.

When deciding whether or not to use a semicolon, the writer must ask the question: does the second clause restate the first? If the answer is no, then a semicolon would be incorrect.

I went to the store; Tom said we need lettuce.

The second clause does not restate the first, so the semicolon is incorrect.


* Elmore Leonard, one of my favorite authors, misused them a lot.
 
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guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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I'm with James on this one. A semi-colon may be technically correct, but it often feels like a piece of gaffer tape sticking together two bits of text that don't really want to be joined.

That's because people don't use them correctly. (See my post above.)
 

King Neptune

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I believe that one of the reasons semicolons are disdained by some is because they are too often misused. Writers either 1) don't know the rules, 2) see semicolons misused in books,* or 3) get misinformation from places like writers' forums and run with it.

Excluding the use of separating items in a list, there are only two uses for a semicolon.

1) to join two independent clauses when the second clause restates the first.

Road construction has hindered travel around town; streets have become covered with bulldozers, trucks, and cones.

2) to join two independent clauses when the second clause begins with a conjunctive adverb (however, therefore, moreover, furthermore, thus, meanwhile, nonetheless, otherwise) or a transition (in fact, for example, that is, for instance, in addition, in other words, on the other hand, even so).

Terrorism in the U.S. has become a recent concern; in fact, the concern for America's safety has led to an awareness of global terrorism.

When deciding whether or not to use a semicolon, the writer must ask the question: does the second clause restate the first? If the answer is no, then a semicolon would be incorrect.

I went to the store; Tom said we need lettuce.

The second clause does not restate the first, so the semicolon is incorrect.


* Elmore Leonard, one of my favorite authors, misused them a lot.

I don't have much faith in those "rules". That matter of the second clausde restating what is in the first is quite novel.
http://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/Semicolons.html
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/how-to-use-semicolons
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/04/
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/semicolon.htm

Where did you find that oddity about the second clause restating?
 

cornflake

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Style choice =/ rule.
 

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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I just noticed that in my previous post I accidentally cut some words while I was copying and pasting, and this omission made the 1st rule seem rather restrictive. Here is the rule with the omitted words in blue.

1) to join two independent clauses when the second clause restates or expands on the first.

I apologize for the misstep and any confusion it caused.
 

Maryn

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I, too, disagree with the "rule" that the second independent clause must be a restatement of the first to make the use of the semicolon correct.

Am I the only one amused and loving it, that we can get ourselves fairly worked up over punctuation?

Maryn, who fits in here better than most placees
 

King Neptune

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I, too, disagree with the "rule" that the second independent clause must be a restatement of the first to make the use of the semicolon correct.

Am I the only one amused and loving it, that we can get ourselves fairly worked up over punctuation?

Maryn, who fits in here better than most placees

If we had weapons and held territory, then we could have a dandy war. A war with a definable cause.
 

King Neptune

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I just noticed that in my previous post I accidentally cut some words while I was copying and pasting, and this omission made the 1st rule seem rather restrictive. Here is the rule with the omitted words in blue.

1) to join two independent clauses when the second clause restates or expands on the first.

I apologize for the misstep and any confusion it caused.

Where did you find that? I was looking for something vaguely like that. I didn't make a complete search, but I did look at a number of sites, and none of them wen tfurther than saying that the second clause should be closely related to the first.
 

BethS

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I had a beta tell me to use a comma splice instead if it was contained in dialogue.

Seriously? I don't get why there would be different punctuation rules inside quotations, but I thought I should probably check.

For clarity:

"I went to the store; Tom said we need lettuce." This is how I would write it.

"I went to the store, Tom said we need lettuce." This is what was recommended.

Dialogue is considered privileged content, so the rules of grammar and punctuation can be suspended in order to produce a certain effect, such as run-on speech. That doesn't mean it should be automatically done. Stick to the rules unless you have a reason not to.
 

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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I didn't make a complete search, but I did look at a number of sites, and none of them wen tfurther than saying that the second clause should be closely related to the first.

Yes, but what does "closely related" mean?

I went to the store; I bought a pair of shoes.

Are those clauses closely related? Sure. I couldn't have bought the shoes if I hadn't gone to the store. But they are two separate and distinct actions, and the second action doesn't restate the first, nor does it expand on the first except in the loosest sense. That sentence would be better served with a period or with a comma plus the conjunction "and."

It was almost six-o'clock; we'd never make it to town before sundown.

In this sentence, while the second clause doesn't restate the first, the clauses are closely related because the second expands on the first with a direct cause and effect. This sentence is best served with either a semicolon or with a comma plus the conjunction "so."
 

King Neptune

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Yes, but what does "closely related" mean?

I went to the store; I bought a pair of shoes.

Are those clauses closely related? Sure. I couldn't have bought the shoes if I hadn't gone to the store. But they are two separate and distinct actions, and the second action doesn't restate the first, nor does it expand on the first except in the loosest sense. That sentence would be better served with a period or with a comma plus the conjunction "and."

It was almost six-o'clock; we'd never make it to town before sundown.

In this sentence, while the second clause doesn't restate the first, the clauses are closely related because the second expands on the first with a direct cause and effect. This sentence is best served with either a semicolon or with a comma plus the conjunction "so."

O.K., I understand, but "closely related" has a very different meaning from "restate the first", and it appears that you came to see that also.
 

CathleenT

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Wow. I love writers. We really care about this stuff.

Whether or not a semicolon is the best choice is somewhat a matter of personal taste.

However, I wasn't actually confused about using semicolons generally, just if there were specific rules concerning dialogue. Using semicolons, I go by Strunk and White, Elements of Style, pp. 5-6:

"If two or more clauses grammatically complete and not joined by a conjunction are to form a single compound sentence, the proper form of punctuation is a semicolon."

He gives two examples.

"Stevenson's romances are entertaining; they are full of exciting adventures.

It is nearly half past five; we cannot reach town before dark."

He shows how these two examples would look broken into short sentences, and also shows them joined by a conjunction and comma. He then goes on to say:

"A comparison of the three forms above will show clearly the advantage of the first [semicolon use]. It is, at least in the examples given, better than the second form [two sentences] because it suggests the close relationship between the two statements in a way in a way that the second does not attempt, and better than the third [conjunction and comma] because it is briefer and therefore more forcible. Indeed, this simple method if indicating relationship between statements is one of the most useful devices of composition. The relationship, as above, is commonly one of cause and consequence." [Bolding is mine.]

Other people may choose other sources, and that's okay. But at least according to Strunk and White, they do not have to be a restatement or even causal. Elsewhere, it is described as a way to join two related independent clauses.

But nobody says you have to use the silly things if you don't like them. :)
 
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Maryn

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On a side note, I was dismayed this morning to find the semicolon earrings I'd favorited on Etsy are no longer being sold. Damn it, I should have bought them when I saw them!

Maryn, full of regrets
 

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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Maryn, you think not being able to buy an earring is bad? I recently turned sixty-four, and my doctor told me it was time for me to have a semicolonoscopy. He said he recommends one to all his half-assed patients.
 

Chase

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Dialogue is considered privileged content, so the rules of grammar and punctuation can be suspended in order to produce a certain effect, such as run-on speech.

The first part is true for grammar. It even extends to first-person narrative, though I maintain good punctuation is needed, especially since it has to do with reading and not how the character sounds.

As for rapid speech, wording in dialog and attributives help the reader more than questionable punctuation.

On a side note, I was dismayed this morning to find the semicolon earrings I'd favorited on Etsy are no longer being sold.

I've saved my earlobes to date, but I may give in for semicolon earrings.

semicolonoscopy

Not even remotely funny at my age.

Chase, on first-name terms with tailgunners at the local hospital
 

King Neptune

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On a side note, I was dismayed this morning to find the semicolon earrings I'd favorited on Etsy are no longer being sold. Damn it, I should have bought them when I saw them!

Maryn, full of regrets

I agree with Chase on this matter. Look around and you may find others that will as nice or even nicer.
 

gingerwoman

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At the Romance Writers of New Zealand conference I remember one year, an editor from a big publishing house told us they never wanted to see them at all ever. (I think she was from Harlequin, but I'm not 100% sure.)
 
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