Schrodinger's Rapist and Hyperawareness

Reminds me of something my mum taught me as a kid, that I'm teaching to mine: adults don't need help from kids. If an adult says "oh I lost my dog, can you help me?" they're probably lying.
Caveat: once a little old lady had fallen down and really did need my help. We can't leave our judgment behind. But as a general rule, it's not a bad one.

MacAllister said:

RobJ, you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, of course.

On the other hand, I'm the one who usually gets to deal with members (almost inevitably guys) who fixate on someone, keep sending highly sexualized PMs and just won't leave the object of fixation alone.

The other mods and I are the ones who get to explain that "No, she doesn't owe you her time, attention, energy, or an answer. No, she doesn't at least have to read what you've said. Yes, she can put you on ignore -- that's not up to you, that's up to her..." over and over again.

When a mod deletes a rape "joke" I'm usually the one who deals with the backlash of "Jeez, it's just a joke, lighten up why don't you, you humorless bitch/cunt/dyke/whore."

So from MY perspective, it's an excellent post to have in the Newbie Guide, and as part of our board culture.

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I can understand why you'd want something in the Newbie Guide to counter what you describe above. Those are serious issues.

Even if BunnyMaz's post was excellent, it strikes me as perhaps not the best way to achieve what you're after (again, IMHO). The message might get lost in all that detail, whereas a couple of concise sentences in the Newbie Guide on sexual harassment and rape jokes might do the job much more clearly for the benefit of new members. However, anyone looking at the source material can see that BunnyMaz's post contains some really fundamental mistakes, which prevents it from being excellent, and those mistakes are now repeated in the Absolute Write Newbie Guide.

Thanks to BunnyMaz for posting this, and to Mac for adding it to the newbie guide.

RobJ - I, too, would like to know what these inaccurate statements are.


And, I have a link , to a nice little skit about what would happen if we treated a man reporting a mugging the way we treat a woman reporting a rape. (That's a repost of it - the original has gone).

While I agree this is an excellent discussion all around, I do admit I don't understand how it would be helpful in the Newbie's Guide. When I saw the first statement about that, I wondered why. Now, I can definitely understand wanting to clue people in on acceptable behaviors via the forum - but I really don't see how this focuses attention on that. I would have had no idea had not Mac posted in response - and frankly, that post is what should be in the Newbie Guide, if it isn't already. It just seems that that kind of behavior needs a "Hit 'em over the head with it before they even get started" type of thing, rather than a more "intelligent discussion" post. JMHO

RobJ said:

However, anyone looking at the source material can see that BunnyMaz's post contains some really fundamental mistakes, which prevents it from being excellent, and those mistakes are now repeated in the Absolute Write Newbie Guide.

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??? Do tell.

little_e said:

You would think that prisons would be places for controlling behavior and preventing crime. Instead they're just black holes for tossing in and destroying society's "trash". The humanity is just stripped away.

My dad recently got a job related to preventing/tracing human trackers over the US/Mexico border. "According to the CIA, more than 1,000,000 people are enslaved in the US today." Most of those slaves are women and children.

The crimes against them don't get counted in the official rape statistics, of course.

"In its 400 years, the transatlantic slave trade is estimated to have shipped up to 12 million Africans to various colonies in the West. Free the Slaves estimates that the number of people in slavery today is at least 27 million." http://matadornetwork.com/change/10-shocking-facts-about-global-slavery-in-2008/
The Civil War was fought over 4 million slaves.

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And neither do all the unreported rapes of people who are not slaves get counted in statistics. People do not always report rape, and I would go as far to say that it is likely the number being reported is a mere percentage of the actual cases. Given that, it is hard to know if prisoner male-on-male rape actually exceeds rape outside prisons. It is also important to remember that boys and men get raped outside prisons as well.

RobJ said:

I can understand why you'd want something in the Newbie Guide to counter what you describe above. Those are serious issues.<<snip>>

However, anyone looking at the source material can see that BunnyMaz's post contains some really fundamental mistakes, which prevents it from being excellent, and those mistakes are now repeated in the Absolute Write Newbie Guide.

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Can you elaborate? Because it kind of underscores your entire point.

I thought BunnyMaz's post was fantastically well put together and it made for very thought-provoking reading. I have to confess, it's not a subject I expected to stumble across in office party, but I'm very glad she posted it.

However, I agree with RobJ that a simple couple of statements in the newbie guide that make it absolutely clear that behaviour of this sort won't be tolerated under any circumstances might be clearer than this thread in its entirety. Just my opinion, of course, and I'm absolutely behind any efforts to put a stop to this sort of behaviour, whatever form that takes.

Boston's point about becoming more aware of some of the appalling attitudes towards women that seem so prevalent in our society through his daughter's exposure to them is an interesting (and sad) one. I don't have any kids myself, but maybe I will one day. Part of the reason we've never had any to date is that, until recently, we lived in an area of the UK where social problems were rife and it wasn't uncommon to see very public and very abusive behaviour towards women. If I ever have a daughter, I just don't want her to have to deal with that. Equally, if I ever have a son, I don't want him to grow up thinking of women as anything other than his fellow human beings, to be treated with the same level of respect and consideration as he'd want for himself. If he can't manage that, then what hope would he have of a happy and fulfilling relationship when he grows up?

And those of you raising kids with that sort of attitude, please keep in touch! I will need a supply of nice people for my hypothetical kids to socialise with when they're old enough to be let out of the house unsupervised (most likely in their late-40s!).

Nothing of substance to add. Just wanted to say thanks for the excellent post.

The whole idea that a woman might treat me as Schrodinger's rapist like this makes me angry. Spitting, frothing at the mouth angry.

At the rapists who make it necessary.

JimmyB27 said:

The whole idea that a woman might treat me as Schrodinger's rapist like this makes me angry. Spitting, frothing at the mouth angry.

At the rapists who make it necessary.

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Here's your cookie.

Amadan said:

Here's your cookie.

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Because God forbid that a man might have an emotional reaction to this, or actually be pissed off at rapists and the effect that they have even on women who aren't raped, or acknowledge that yes, it can be a problem and they wish it wasn;t or...or what exactly is your point here?

IdiotsRUs said:

Because God forbid that a man might have an emotional reaction to this, or actually be pissed off at rapists and the effect that they have even on women who aren't raped, or acknowledge that yes, it can be a problem and they wish it wasn;t or...or what exactly is your point here?

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My point is that saying "I hate rapists!' is great and all, but not particularly helpful. Do you want me to affirm similar sentiments? Okay -- I hate rapists and I can do the "Hulk smash!" routine as well when I hear about sexual violence. But it usually strikes me as a guy asking for a pat on the back for proclaiming what a great non-rapist guy he is.

Actually taking on misogynists online - you know, the ones who pile on whenever a thread about rape gets derailed (not here, but other places on the Internet) is harder.

But it usually strikes me as a guy asking for a pat on the back for proclaiming what a great non-rapist guy he is.

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Sometime it is, and sometimes it's an honest emotional reaction that women are scared because some men are a disgrace to their gender, and that shames them. There's nothing wrong with that imo


Tbh, I thought you wanted a cookie for knowing what a feminist cookie was. That's how it struck me. Hard to tell from a post, isn't it?

Well my point is not 'give me a pat on the back, aren't I a lovely non-rapist'. Hell, for all you guys know, I could be - that's the whole point of the Schrodinger rapist.
My point is that these people hurt all of us, not just the women they rape. Now, my hurt pales into insignificance against a woman's, raped or not (and you can give me another cookie for that if you want), but that doesn't change the fact that some arseholes are spoiling it for all of us, and so it's up to all of us to sort it out.

Amadan said:

My point is that saying "I hate rapists!' is great and all, but not particularly helpful. Do you want me to affirm similar sentiments? Okay -- I hate rapists and I can do the "Hulk smash!" routine as well when I hear about sexual violence. But it usually strikes me as a guy asking for a pat on the back for proclaiming what a great non-rapist guy he is.

Actually taking on misogynists online - you know, the ones who pile on whenever a thread about rape gets derailed (not here, but other places on the Internet) is harder.

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Helpful to whom? I like hearing men say that, especially when threads on the subject are answered so predominantly by women. Yep, jump in and say you hate them, or that you could never imagine wanting to rape somebody. I do appreciate that. It's just supportive, imho.

The majority of men on AW would, I hope, be absolutely mortified to be linked, in any way, to the notion that rape is anything but an abhorrent act. This specific conversation has cropped up before, and my stance hasn't changed at all - it isn't normal, it isn't something to mock (and there are sites which piss me off mightily due to the blithe attitudes displayed towards rape victims), and making rape anything other than horrendous does disservice to society as a whole.

backslashbaby said:

Helpful to whom? I like hearing men say that, especially when threads on the subject are answered so predominantly by women. Yep, jump in and say you hate them, or that you could never imagine wanting to rape somebody. I do appreciate that. It's just supportive, imho.

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Exactly

I've been knocked on the head a few times myself for reflexively expressing my revulsion for rapists and being told I was looking for cookies and asspats, and after the sting wore off, I could see the point - it really wasn't my intent to seek praise for taking the brave stance that Rape Is Bad, but it's such an easy thing to do, like slapping one of those "Support the Troops!" magnets on your bumper.

I engage misogynists online (and occasionally in real life), particularly in geek circles where some of the most sexist men will loudly pat themselves on the back for not being rapists or ever beating their girlfriends even once. So I try to use my powers of acerbic charm for good, but it does tend to make me jaded - hence my rolling my eyes at JimmyB27. Sorry, dude.

I've been knocked on the head a few times myself for reflexively expressing my revulsion for rapists and being told I was looking for cookies and asspats,

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Thing is...ther are a many responses to what say you or Jim said as there are women. Being a woman is not being one thing. WE, er, you know, have different opinions and stuff.

So maybe you're best having your own way of dealing. Read, learn absorb, Make up your own mind

PS we don't need guys to mansplain this stuff to us. Just a heads up.

It's hard, but I would rather you were yourself than some feminist parrot. Because just regurgitating is no use.

I am not sure being called a mansplaining parrot is better than being accused of seeking cookies, but 'kay. I do have my own way of dealing. Usually it's acerbic.

A post (on a blog I like) that seems to me to be a similar message from a different angle: Slavering Beast Theory

Amadan said:

My point is that saying "I hate rapists!' is great and all, but not particularly helpful. Do you want me to affirm similar sentiments? Okay -- I hate rapists and I can do the "Hulk smash!" routine as well when I hear about sexual violence. But it usually strikes me as a guy asking for a pat on the back for proclaiming what a great non-rapist guy he is.

Actually taking on misogynists online - you know, the ones who pile on whenever a thread about rape gets derailed (not here, but other places on the Internet) is harder.

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I think both responses are valuable. Yes, Jimmy's response is the more passive, but think on this: if every man out there recognised the way rape culture and misogyny impacts on their own gender as well as women, I can guarantee you there'd be a damn sight more action being taken. Now, on a certain level, it does disappoint me that they need to be able to see the effect on their own gender in order to identify with our plight, but frankly, we're all only human - and awareness is valuable, no matter how it comes about.

If all men acknowledged that 'favouring the mother' in divorce cases is a direct offshoot of the 'women should stay in the kitchen/barefoot and pregnant' mentality, we'd have a lot more feminists (and a lot less MRA's) - see also the "diminished role of the father", because 'parenting' is apparently a woman's job.

If all men acknowledged that society's acceptance of rape culture - it's acceptance of male sexual dominance, of women as prize and men as helpless slaves to their horomones, that women 'owe' men sex in return for a variety of mundane and arbitrary actions (being bought a drink, sharing a cab, flirting) - damages irreperably the way women view men, there'd be a lot more action taken.

And so on.