Non-fantastic fantasy

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glutton

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Who is to say that the answers would have been different from those already given? Maybe it's time to check your own expectations and see if you can reconcile the discrepancy yourself.

I'm pretty sure the average person wouldn't have thought of all that. And I'm not looking down at the average person by saying that because I wouldn't have of it (hence my reaction).
 

jjdebenedictis

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So if the explanation is simply not given in the story which is told from a first or third person POV due to the POV characters having no reason to bring it up, being as familiar with their world's quirks as we are with having feet, that is bad writing? It seems logical to me... the actual explanation would likely be them having slightly different biology than our own, as you suggested, but then how would they know this to explain it? Other than the potential for greater physical ability shown, it would make zero sense for there to be an explicit explanation in the story.
Yes, it's bad writing to hand the reader a story that makes no sense.

It doesn't matter whether your characters are inhuman and don't need to mention that fact to anyone. Your readers are human, and they do need to comprehend what the differences are.

It's not like "As you know, Bob" dialogue is the only way to do that. You can have, for example, Mary observing Bob bench-pressing his jeep and then thinking that she really needs to hit the gym soon, because it's just not safe to drive a car she couldn't carry to the nearest gas station.

You need to orient your reader as to what "normal" is in the story, otherwise you're telling the story poorly, i.e. writing badly.
 

Fenika

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Glutton, you keep getting into these situations where you push and push and don't like the standard answer (or SYW feedback).

This is why people consider you to be trolling.

When you are determined to consider everyone non-helpful or too writerly minded or otherwise dismiss us, yet at the same time keep digging for answers, it gets pretty ludicrous.

You won't find enlightenment with shitty questions and vague concepts. Manure can only be turned into rich compost by following the right process.

And no I do not want to discuss how to turn this thread into compost. The topic already went to hell by constant pushing and digging.
 

glutton

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Yes, it's bad writing to hand the reader a story that makes no sense.

It doesn't matter whether your characters are inhuman and don't need to mention that fact to anyone. Your readers are human, and they do need to comprehend what the differences are.

It's not like "As you know, Bob" dialogue is the only way to do that. You can have, for example, Mary observing Bob bench-pressing his jeep and then thinking that she really needs to hit the gym soon, because it's just not safe to drive a car she couldn't carry to the nearest gas station.

You need to orient your reader, otherwise you're telling the story poorly, i.e. writing badly.

That's different in that it isn't an actual explanation though. It's orienting the reader into the world, but it doesn't tell anyone what the underlying reason they are that way is. Do you think you would likely consider the example you gave, with the orientation, speculative fiction though?
 

glutton

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You won't find enlightenment with shitty questions and vague concepts.

Subjective. I don't think the concepts in this thread are vague at all.

And what answers? It's not even like people are disagreeing with me... there's basically been no answers at all. Seriously, I can't believe that no one even leans towards a stance on this?
 

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Subjective. I don't think the concepts in this thread are vague at all.

And what answers? It's not even like people are disagreeing with me... there's basically been no answers at all. Seriously, I can't believe that no one even leans towards a stance on this?

You want a yes or no answer in a question that is too vague and carries unwarranted assumptions behind it. What you're receivng is people explaining their problems with the question itself.

Spotting and challenging the assumptions behind questions is a vital skill, far more important then being able to give a simple yes or no.
 

jjdebenedictis

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You want a yes or no answer in a question that is too vague and carries unwarranted assumptions behind it. What you're receivng is people explaining their problems with the question itself.

Spotting and challenging the assumptions behind questions is a vital skill, far more important then being able to give a simple yes or no.
Ditto all of this, and with this, I bow out of the conversation too.
 

glutton

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So no matter how many times I clarify the questions or examples, they're still incredibly vague, and most attempts I make to clarify them are considered changing the goalposts. Since I can't see much vagueness in it even in its first form, I guess I'm too direct and simple minded for this board.
 

Mr Flibble

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So no matter how many times I clarify the questions or examples,

But your clarification...isn't very clarifying?


It's really simple, which you seem to be ignoring

Unreal stuff with a reason = people will see it as fantasy

Unreal stuff 'just because' in an otherwise non fantasy world - throw book.

The whole pointt is - your world needs to be consistent. If there are people who can lob a jeep and down a fighter jet - this needs to impact the whole society. Because it would - and that is the whole point of world building - not what cool stuff you can imagine, but how that cool stuff impacts everything else.

The point is, it shouldn't come out of nowhere (Can you imagine if Obama suddenly levitated? I need to knwo why/how, because WTF??). It should be part of the world you built, and it should affect it.

Internal consistency.

Anything else will result in wall banging or possible swearing.
 

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I don't think the concepts in this thread are vague at all.

Yes, you have made it very clear that You don't think you are being vague, but nearly everyone else Has made it very clear that it is. What you have is an inability to see your own poor communication / concept skills. And now you are insulting yourself in some kind of pre flounce.

Walk away. I don't think you can because you are so determined to force this thread to work, but walk away and go reflect. On communication, people, genre, whatever. Stop digging, do something else, and slowly review the big picture. Think outside your assumptions.

You can come up with some retort to this post, but it won't help you. I'm not clear why this is so important to you but you're on the wrong path here.
 

glutton

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The thread isn't working because nearly every reply since the second page or so has been off topic... and I'm the one trolling? Look at Mr Flibble's newest post even after I gave possible reasons, still harping on something tangential instead of addressing the main issue. So the majority is always right and a simple question actually isn't simple? The reason this thread sucks is because it's been made to suck.
 

Fenika

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And now you've got another person outta this thread because all I can add is one thing that has nothing directly to do with your question and everything to do with you:

Life/people will continue to frustrate you as long as you see the world through your current lens.

Good luck.
 

Mr Flibble

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The thread isn't working because nearly every reply since the second page or so has been off topic... and I'm the one trolling? Look at Mr Flibble's newest post even after I gave possible reasons, still harping on something tangential instead of addressing the main issue. So the majority is always right and a simple question actually isn't simple? The reason this thread sucks is because it's been made to suck.


Okay, fine


I thought I was addressing the issue, but hey I can be wrong
( although my answer stands for your OP, only without the details - internal consistency)

What is the issue?

What is making this suck apart from people giving their opinions on your premise?
 

glutton

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Holier-than-thou, self righteous post that basically acknowledges you're at least as convinced you're 'right' as I am, if not more. So who's to objectively say who's 'right'?

It might be objectively possible to say over 50% of the posts in the thread are off topic though.

Edit: This is not a reply to you Mr.Flibble but to Fenika.
 

Mr Flibble

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Um. okay

Look, I admit I could be wrong - would not be the first time or the last, I'm sure.

But I am only going by your posts in this thread

By all means, if there is extra stuff to add to help us get it, go for it, I'd love to hear it. Or accept what what people are saying, and/or accept (perhaps) you have not conveyed what you wanted, and how to fix that. Your choice.

PS I'm not holier than anyone. Just giving my opinion on what you have posted. Plenty of people think I'm fairly UN holy as it happens
 

glutton

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Um. okay

Look, I admit I could be wrong - would not be the first time or the last, I'm sure.

But I am only going by your posts in this thread

By all means, if there is extra stuff to add to help us get it, go for it, I'd love to hear it. Or accept what what people are saying, and/or accept (perhaps) you have not conveyed what you wanted, and how to fix that. Your choice.

That last post wasn't addressed to you. I'll get back to you in a few minutes.
 

Mr Flibble

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Glutton

Sit back

Take a breath

Think

Describe to us exactly what you mean (and believe me when I say I have trouble with this - every damn day)

Be claer as to what you are asking

be clear a to what your world and characters are

Be open to the fact not everyone will see them as you do (fact of life for a writer, but if MANY people say the same, it MAY be time to think again. We have all been there, we are not picking on you. We might be picking on your concept).
 

MacAllister

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From an outside perspective, Glutton, I'll only observe it reads very much to me as if you've come to this thread with an agenda -- but since you think you're oh-so-cleverly concealing that agenda by making up hypotheticals to represent the thinly-disguised real-world examples that you're deliberately not naming, you believe you're being specific while everyone attempting to engage the topic is becoming increasingly frustrated by what reads as coy evasiveness on your part.

That's not gonna fly. It's intellectually dishonest, rhetorically clumsy, and logically problematic.

Perhaps it's time to reconsider the tack you're taking, rather than becoming sneering, dismissive, and hostile when you don't get the answers you think you've oh-so-cleverly trapped people into giving you with your initial rhetorical gambit? Is it really so difficult to be specific, be up-front, and just write what you're actually tap-dancing around?
 

glutton

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Glutton

Sit back

Take a breath

Think

Describe to us exactly what you mean (and believe me when I say I have trouble with this - every damn day)

Be claer as to what you are asking

be clear a to what your world and characters are

Be open to the fact not everyone will see them as you do (fact of life for a writer, but if MANY people say the same, it MAY be time to think again. We have all been there, we are not picking on you. We might be picking on your concept).

Ok, I'm not sure how I can explain my question more clearly than I already have in the thread. However I'll put my main points together here and maybe it'll look clearer.

The original (well, second) example was hypothetical. I have never written a world with superhuman warriors and no other fantastic elements, as all my superhuman warrior stories also have elements such as monsters and magic.

However, the hypothetical question was, if the superhuman warriors with no other fantastic elements in their world would seem to be fantasy. People then questioned whether it would necessarily be fantasy as it could also be sci-fi or superhero fiction. So I changed my wording from 'fantasy' to 'speculative fiction'. The question then becomes, at a certain point does unrealism take the story into the territory of being speculative fiction.

The explanation or lack thereof is pretty irrelevant at this point IMO, but I supplied a possible explanation anyway - that the humans' biology in that universe is slightly different than our own. This then turned into a discussion of good vs bad writing instead of addressing the question.

So I guess the final question is, if a universe with superhuman warriors and no other fantastic elements is internally consistent and well written (to get away from the good/bad writing off topic-ness), would you be likely to view it as speculative fiction of some kind?
 
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glutton

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the thinly-disguised real-world examples that you're deliberately not naming

I'm not actually sure which examples you're referring to, but is it my writing? If so I'm pretty sure most of my stories are obviously fantasy and not what is being debated. And I honestly don't understand what the rest of your post is talking about... well I understand the gist of it, but I don't know what answers I'm trying to trap people into giving.

Why don't you be up front and reveal them if you think you know?
 

MacAllister

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Look, I'm not asking for something particularly difficult. I'm just asking you to stop making up poorly described hypotheticals, is all.

Something like, for example: "Is Kill Bill fantasy? How about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Why or why not? What about The Bourne Supremacy? Here's what I think, and why..."

Or if what you really want to say is "It's clearly unrealistic and fantastical for Jane Rizzoli in the trunk of a car to manage to kill or disable both the accomplished serial killers who've abducted her -- so is that fantasy or speculative fiction?" Then just ask that. (Or whatever hypothetical it is that you actually have in mind but are avoiding actually addressing.)
 

glutton

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Look, I'm not asking for something particularly difficult. I'm just asking you to stop making up poorly described hypotheticals, is all.

Something like, for example: "Is Kill Bill fantasy? How about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Why or why not? What about The Bourne Supremacy? Here's what I think, and why..."

None of those with the possible exception of Crouching Tiger is beyond pulp level unrealism though.

I could say, 'would Beowulf with mundane animals instead of monsters be fantasy', in fact I might have tried that one already...
 

glutton

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Except Beowulf has monsters in it. So do most of mine, which is why my question was mainly hypothetical - what if there were no monsters, but just superhuman humans. :)

So the 'Beowulf without monsters' situation was already referred to.
 

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glutton, I realize that you think you're being very clear. Unfortunately, it's not coming across as clear to most of the people reading. So while I can see that this is very frustrating to you, I'd hope that you can appreciate that other people are getting frustrated too. Not out of any sort of desire to take things off topic, or to thwart you, but because it's just not making sense.

From my perspective, it reads a bit as if you came in and said, "How long is a piece of string? Say, if it's long enough to wind around a ball."

And people went, "Well, what kind of ball are we talking? Soccer ball, baseball?"

And you said, "How about if it's a blue ball that the string is going around? And it's a string made of nylon."

People said, "It would depend on the size of the ball. Are you winding it around just once? Are we talking basketballs here?"

And you said, "No, I mean, sports balls in general! And the string is three ply!"

We're talking past each other, here. You're asking people to define something very specific based on very specific information you're giving, but it's not the sort of information that lets us come up with a useful specific response. So you keep giving more information, and getting an answer of "It depends!" because you're giving us MORE information, but not USEFUL information.

And then everyone ends up frustrated.
 

glutton

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I would propose that the issue is only unclear if looked at from a certain angle. I've posted the question about superhuman warriors without other fantasy elements elsewhere since the thread took a nosedive and while I'll refrain from saying what the exact answers I got were, they were basically either 'yes', 'no', or a contemptuous 'lol' (possibly indicating the answer is too obvious to be asked for, whether it be yes or no... or 'that would be horrible writing' but I digress).

Since I received the advice to 'step back', why don't others step back and try it from this perspective: if you walked into your friend's house and saw a really horrible movie playing on their TV with a guy running around in a loincloth in ancient times punching out elephants and throwing guys up over castle walls with no proper explanation for his strength... is there a good possibility you might think, intuitively without mulling in depth about it, 'Wow, this is a really horrible fantasy movie?'
 
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