Why is proofreading so expensive?

Calla Lily · Feb 28, 2013

I just love it when I'm being played for a sap. Really I do.

:sarcasm

:

OP, the following sentences snipped and highlighted from your post #22 here illustrate my frustration:

Juel J M said:
<snip> I played dumb and asked a couple of general, naive ones in hopes I'd get the information and perspective I wanted <snip>

This is not a good start here. Just though I'd mention that.

I am guessing that a job like Chris had, proofreading scientific articles from non-native English speakers, would be considerably harder than just proofreading a book

like one I'm beta-ing right now, which only has a plethora of misused semicolons, a few missing words, and a couple comma/period swaps. If someone only proofread for, say, self publishers after they've done all the editing they can and just want another pair of eyes to catch everything they missed, what would be the typical speed that a proofreader could do a good job at, and shouldn't the price reflect the relatively lighter work?

Indeed you do not understand what proofreading involves. Nor do you understand the work, skill, and experience involved. Editing does not equal copyediting. Neither editing nor copyediting equal proofreading.

Also, the number of errors in your post above indicates that you need considerably more experience before you try for a professional proofreading career.

Annoyed Lily is annoyed.

mccardey · Feb 28, 2013

callalily61 said:
Annoyed Lily is annoyed.

Everyone - DUCK!!!

cornflake · Feb 28, 2013

mccardey said:
Everyone - DUCK!!!

Ooh, there's a duck?!

Could I please pat the duck? I would like to pat a duck.

buz · Feb 28, 2013

Juel J M said:
I have been doing research and am not entirely unknowledgeable on the subject, however unfortunately I didn't know enough to ask the right question to get the right answer, so I played dumb and asked a couple of general, naive ones in hopes I'd get the information and perspective I wanted (oh, and lucrative was the wrong word, I agree...I realized that about ten seconds after walking away from the computer ). Which I did. Y'all are great. (Just FYI, I'm coming at the subject more from the perspective of 'if I became a proofreader what should I charge?' rather than 'if I needed a proofreader what should I pay?') I'm a compulsive editor, but I'd never actually taken a certain amount of flawed text authored by someone else and put it all in order (I don't have a brother in editing like Roger, unfortunately ), so I am drawing on y'all's experience instead.

What?

If I wanted know what sort of money a proofreader should expect, or how much to charge, I would ask what sort of money to expect or how much to charge. Not something else.

If someone only proofread for, say, self publishers after they've done all the editing they can and just want another pair of eyes to catch everything they missed, what would be the typical speed that a proofreader could do a good job at, and shouldn't the price reflect the relatively lighter work?

If you charge by the hour, and it doesn't take you too many hours to do it, then yeah, the price would be lower than for something that requires more work. But you wouldn't change the hourly rate. I get paid the same hourly rate at my job of Mostly Cleaning Up Animal Poo regardless of how much poo there is, but the hours might vary.

Calla Lily · Feb 28, 2013

Muahahahaha!

*makes Peking duck*

Old Hack · Feb 28, 2013

Juel J M said:
If someone only proofread for, say, self publishers after they've done all the editing they can and just want another pair of eyes to catch everything they missed, what would be the typical speed that a proofreader could do a good job at, and shouldn't the price reflect the relatively lighter work?

You don't seem to even know what proof reading is, or how it's done. And yet you think you can charge people money for your proof reading skills? Nope. Don't. Please. It wouldn't be fair.

Books are first edited, to resolve issues with plot, characterisation, story arc and so on. This can take several passes, and much collaboration between editor and author. They books are copy edited, to pick up the errors in grammar, punctuation, continuity etc., which were missed in the first edit. Then the books are designed, laid out, typeset, and proofs are produced and at that point they're proof read, to pick up any final remaining errors.

So "only proofread[ing] for, say, self publishers after they've done all the editing they can" isn't going to mean you'd have lighter work than other proof readers, or that you could charge less for your work; and by suggesting that you'd "only" work for self published writers you're on the verge of insulting those self published writers, by implying that their work is somehow less deserving of a full proof read by a competent editor.

Tread carefully, Juel.

Juel J M · Feb 28, 2013

I am very sorry, everyone. I did not mean to frustrate or annoy anyone. Please forgive me.

@cornflake I did not intend to say that...I am sorry. What I meant was that I didn't have very good general perspective on the topic, but I didn't even know enough to phrase a specific question correctly; so I asked some questions that I knew partial answers to in an attempt to understand better.

@callalily I'm very sorry for annoying you so badly. I didn't mean it that way. As I said, my questions represented honest confusions that I was hoping to receive enlightenment on. I didn't mean to make you think I was just playing around with you guys.

Yes, I realize that there are differences...but the more I researched, the more I found that different definitions existed for almost all the terms I came across: 'copy editor', 'proofreader', etc. I tried to make sure we were all talking about the same thing by giving the brief definition of what I meant by the word.

I'm sorry if I got it wrong.

What I was trying to say in the paragraph that aggravated you was not that a self-publisher's novel deserved or needed less throroughness. I just thought that since it would be more polished, like what shadowwalker was talking about, it wouldn't require as much effort to give it the same amount of thoroughness as another job that had more errors in it to correct.

@buzhidao Well...that wasn't exactly all I wanted to know, though, I wanted to know...what you guys told me, pretty much. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear what I wanted to use the information for.

And thankyou for the answer – it makes sense.

@Old Hack I know. I'm trying to learn right now. I won't go into the job without learning a whole lot more first.

I'm very sorry for implying that self published authors are less deserving of a full proof read. I only wondered if, since there would be less effort in doing a full proof read for a work with fewer errors in it – I think? – than for a work with more errors, there would be a difference in price. What buzhidao said made sense though.

Old Hack · Feb 28, 2013

Juel J M said:
I am very sorry, everyone. I did not mean to frustrate or annoy anyone. Please forgive me.

Thanks for that. Let's move on, shall we?

Yes, I realize that there are differences...but the more I researched, the more I found that different definitions existed for almost all the terms I came across: 'copy editor', 'proofreader', etc. I tried to make sure we were all talking about the same thing by giving the brief definition of what I meant by the word. I'm sorry if I got it wrong.

For the purposes of this thread, let's assume that "editor" means the person who does the big, substantive edit of the book, which can take several passes; "copy editor" means the person who then looks for smaller errors, such as issues of punctuation, grammar and continuity; and "proof reader" means the person who gives a book its final read through, once it's all typeset and finalised. How's that? Then we all know what we're referring to when we talk about the various stages of editing.

What I was trying to say in the paragraph that aggravated you was not that a self-publisher's novel deserved or needed less throroughness. I just thought that since it would be more polished, like what shadowwalker was talking about, it wouldn't require as much effort to give it the same amount of thoroughness as another job that had more errors in it to correct.

Why do you think a book which is going to be self published would be more error-free than any other sort of book? And what, specifically, are you comparing it to?

@Old Hack I know. I'm trying to learn right now. I won't go into the job without learning a whole lot more first.

You're still thinking of becoming a proof reader?

Please don't.

I can tell from your posts here that you don't have the required knowledge, experience or skill with the written word to do the job properly. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's not something you're cut out for I'm afraid.

Find something else to do. But not editing. It's not for you.

Little Ming · Feb 28, 2013

Juel J M said:
...
What I was trying to say in the paragraph that aggravated you was not that a self-publisher's novel deserved or needed less throroughness. I just thought that since it would be more polished, like what shadowwalker was talking about, it wouldn't require as much effort to give it the same amount of thoroughness as another job that had more errors in it to correct.

...

I'm very sorry for implying that self published authors are less deserving of a full proof read. I only wondered if, since there would be less effort in doing a full proof read for a work with fewer errors in it – I think? – than for a work with more errors, there would be a difference in price. What buzhidao said made sense though.

Ahem.

Luckily, I just had a gallon of coffee so I'm going to assume ignorance instead of insult.

Juel J M, I can promise you that anyone seriously trying to become trade published will edit the shit out of their MS before submission. We do not half-ass the job just because we expect someone else to take care of it later. Our work does not have any "more errors" or require more "effort" to edit.

That said, take some time to read around the forums.

WeaselFire · Feb 28, 2013

Proof reading would be easier if authors actually paid attention. Can't tell you how many times I used to correct "your, you're, you and even yore" to the correct version for the piece at hand. And that's at the editing stage. The place where I inserted my own errors in place of the author's.

Jeff

Cyia · Feb 28, 2013

I wish I had a page from the 3rd or 4th pass of my novel to show you how much editing is involved in "just proofreading" something that's already been edited, and edited and edited. It bleeds red ink - not only because of typos or missed punctuation (which you will still find in pass 3 or 4, even after edits), but because it's the editor's job to ask questions if they have them.

If you could see - even a single page - you'd probably understand why I celebrate completing a round by shredding my edits.

ebbrown · Feb 28, 2013

Yes, it is a very difficult job, and it is well worth every penny spent. People who are good at this are a rare breed. Like others already said, for the amount of work it is, they are not compensated nearly enough.

Yes, I have learned this the Very Hard Way. You get what you pay for. This is not something to skimp on. Trust me.

Unimportant · Feb 28, 2013

Juel J M said:
I am guessing that a job like Chris had, proofreading scientific articles from non-native English speakers, would be considerably harder than just proofreading a book like one I'm beta-ing right now

It's a different skill set. I've done the former and, while I find it exhausting and time-consuming, I can do it to the level required by peer-reviewed scientific journals. I doubt I could do the latter to the level required by the Big 65 (or the Smaller Many-Lots).

JustinlDew · Feb 28, 2013

20/hour is on the cheap side of the spectrum. I've proofreading offered for 35-40 an hour. Also some editors charge by the word.

absitinvidia · Feb 28, 2013

Juel J M said:
What I was trying to say in the paragraph that aggravated you was not that a self-publisher's novel deserved or needed less throroughness. I just thought that since it would be more polished, like what shadowwalker was talking about, it wouldn't require as much effort to give it the same amount of thoroughness as another job that had more errors in it to correct.

Speaking as someone with twenty years' experience editing and proofreading for publishing houses of all shapes and sizes, I say this gently: You should have quit while you were ahead.

Now you've managed to insult every proofreader and editor on this board.

JustinlDew · Feb 28, 2013

absitinvidia said:
Speaking as someone with twenty years' experience editing and proofreading for publishing houses of all shapes and sizes, I say this gently: You should have quit while you were ahead.

Now you've managed to insult every proofreader and editor on this board.

As well as anyone who isn't considering selfpubbing.

WeaselFire · Mar 1, 2013

As an example, my last book was a tech book. It went through three passes by me, the writer, two passes from the tech editor and back to me, two passes with the editor and back to me, one pass with a copy editor, one pass by the editor again and back to me, one pass by the proof reader, one pass with the galleys, back to me for a galley proof, a final copy proof and then the printed work.

I can still spot errors, and readers find even more. After at least five people read it over a total of about 13 times, all of us paid to do the job.

At least in this one I didn't have any stupid spelling errors. That I know of.

Jeff

Calla Lily · Mar 1, 2013

My first pubbed book went through two content edits (4 weeks altogether) then three back-and-forth copyedits (huge, medium, small-- another 4 weeks). The last step was a final proofread by a proofreader who'd never seen the book before. All those passes. All that editing and copyediting and proofing--and both my pic and my copyeditor's pic should be in the dictionary next to "anal-retentive" (I love him). All of that.

The final proofreader caught at least 2 dozen small errors. The funniest? I mention my MC's next-door neighbor twice. I'd misspelled it the second time. We'd all missed it. :e2smack:

This is why my copyeditor got prominent mention in the acknowledgements for all 3 books.

Midian · Mar 10, 2013

I had a really long post and deleted it all. I figured it was better to save my blood pressure.

Bartholomew · Mar 10, 2013

Bleh. I have to make a copy sheet. Thanks for reminding me, terrible, terrible thread.

shaldna · Mar 11, 2013

Juel J M said:
I've been doing research for rates for proofreaders ('examining...text carefully to find and correct typographical errors and mistakes in grammar, style, and spelling'), and I've discovered that the low end of how much they charge per hour is around 20$. Why is the job so lucrative? Is it really that difficult to do a good job at it?

cornflake said:
That is the low end, though I'm not sure how you're considering that lucrative. It's a skilled position that requires a certain level of education, skill, intellect, attention to detail, and other things.

I think Cornflake said it all.

It's a very precise job that requires a lot of skill and perfectionism and experience.

You get what you pay for. And good work is never cheap.

sharonsharon · Mar 19, 2013

$20 an hour is very low end and would be the biggest bargin! I just had first a book proposal analyzed and now it will be copy edited and also put together in book proposal form. This is for a book proposal and will be just under $1000 for all this. I had talked to other friends who had book proposals that sold and they too paid about that much. I am in NYC and I am using a NYC editor, but if I could proof read and copy edit I would be able to do it myself and save myself $1000. I can not, and so I pay someone who is very good at what they do and even teaches it at a college here in NYC. It is a very expensive process and if I did not completely believe in the book proposal, I would not spend the money. Luckily this editor believes in it too

JLAustgen · Mar 21, 2013

callalily61 said:
I'm just going to hit the bar now...

<-- professional proofreader/copyeditor with 29 years' experience

Love it!

GypsyKing · Mar 22, 2013

Because proofreading is penance for sins we have committed in a past life.

Lycoplax · Mar 24, 2013

Juel J M said:
Is it really that difficult to do a good job at it?

Considering the sloppy/lazy writing/spelling/language skills of the average American lately, I would say it is indeed difficult to do a good job. Of course, the present company is made up of people who actually care about words, at least I hope so. But even we make mistakes that we don't always catch.

Why is proofreading so expensive?

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