Standard Fantasy Races

DeadCities said:

Are these played out now? I feel like people are just going to get sick of "just another" story with Elves and Orcs, even though that is close to my heart and something I dearly want to write about in what I am working on at the moment.

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For me, a fantasy novel which uses elves, dwarves or orcs will have to be really good. As in, I'll need to know from some source I consider reliable that this book is doing something different and fascinating with them (execution, as you said) before I'll give it a try. Because I'm tired of them otherwise.

Elves being evil alone wouldn't be enough for me, I'm afraid. It's not a bad touch at all, but R. A. Salvatore did have evil elves in a lot of his Drizzt novels, the elves in Lords and Ladies were evil, the elves in the Dark Sun and Twelve Treasures books weren't exactly good guys either, etc. So I'd need to be certain that there was also an interesting story, unusual worldbuilding and great characterization that would keep me hooked.

But if you want to write about elves and orcs, you should do that. Write what intrigues you.

Maybe it is just me, but has anyone else felt like just including these makes your work more trite and cliche?

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I love making up my own races in fantasy, so it wouldn't occur to me to use elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. The cliche for me is if the elves are carbon copies of Tolkien's elves. They're slender, aloof, beautiful archers who live in trees and belong to an ancient, mystical race. Unless they're dark elves, in which case they have black skin and live underground and range from Lawful to Chaotic Evil. That kind of thing.

It's also problematic for me if the author doesn't bring anything new to the table. I once read a novel where one of the characters was an elf - but apart from pointy ears, there was nothing to set him apart from the humans. No biology, no culture, no mentality, nothing but the damn pointy ears. I didn't read any further in that series.

Hmm. I have nothing against elves myself, but I don't think I'm likely to write about them any time soon. Why?
Because they don't really hold any special appeal for me. In the end, they're just people with pointy ears. That aside, I really do prefer to create my own species. My world, my creatures, my rules.

I actually quite enjoy stories with these races. I just like these good, familiar races like elves and dwarves. I don't really care how used they are.

Dwarves, elves and orcs are standard? Nah, they are stereotyped and ripped from Tolkien.

Here are the standard races and beasts from English folklore:

Angel
Basilisk
Bigfoot
Boggle
Boogieman
Brownie
Cockatrice
Devil
Dragon
(Light and Dark) Elf
Ettin/Ent
Giant
Griffin
Knucker
Lindworm
Mermaid
Nixie
Pegasus
Pixie
Puck
Salamander
Sasquatch
Troll
Unicorn
Wyrme
Wyvern

And many more. Don't just settle on dwarves, elves and orcs and think that because Dungeons and Dragons drew too much inspiration from Tolkien that this select group is considered standard.

I think the point is that they have become considered standard races in modern fantasy, not that they are particularly ancient.

Personally, I am probably less likely to read a book that is about elves or dwarves unless there is something just amazing about the premise or it was recommended to me by someone else.

Although, older folklore should definitely be used more. Which, I think now was probably your point.

And many more from non-Anglo mythology and folklore...

kuwisdelu said:

And many more from non-Anglo mythology and folklore...

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Well, this is stories told in English. Stories told in Japanese will use the kitsune as standard, in Basque will use the basajaun, in Cree will use the wihtigo. What we need more of is translations and greater libraries in those languages.

Xelebes said:

Well, this is stories told in English. Stories told in Japanese will use the kitsune as standard, in Basque will use the basajaun, in Cree will use the wihtigo. What we need more of is translations and greater libraries in those languages.

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And why the hell should writing in English limit me to English mythology? I'm certainly not English.

I guess it just depends. I either love the races (Orcs, Dwarves, Elves) or I hate the races (Werewolves, Vampires, Zombies).

If your version of an elf has very little in common with the sterotypes of elves, I just wouldn't call them elves. If you write sterotypical elves, make sure to do them justice and make them incredibly involved. That's the only downfall of using a race that's been done a hundred times before. You have standard and you better live up to it.

I'd rather create my own races. I mean, I'll read stories with elves and dwarves and orcs and all that, but writing those kinds of stories doesn't really interest me.

Xelebes said:

Dwarves, elves and orcs are standard? Nah, they are stereotyped and ripped from Tolkien.

Here are the standard races and beasts from English folklore:

Angel
Basilisk
Bigfoot
Boggle
Boogieman
Brownie
Cockatrice
Devil
Dragon
(Light and Dark) Elf
Ettin/Ent
Giant
Griffin
Knucker
Lindworm
Mermaid
Nixie
Pegasus
Pixie
Puck
Salamander
Sasquatch
Troll
Unicorn
Wyrme
Wyvern

And many more. Don't just settle on dwarves, elves and orcs and think that because Dungeons and Dragons drew too much inspiration from Tolkien that this select group is considered standard.

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While we're talking about actual mythologies, elves and dwarves (as used by Tolkein and most fantasy) are from Norse mythology, not English. English elves are the short things that make shoes. And Pegasus is Greco-Roman.

kuwisdelu said:

And why the hell should writing in English limit me to English mythology? I'm certainly not English.

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I'm restricting this to standard treatment. Trying to fit a makiskanewew, kitsune or basajaun into an English story, expecting them to be standard is just. . . odd.

Jacob_Wallace said:

While we're talking about actual mythologies, elves and dwarves (as used by Tolkein and most fantasy) are from Norse mythology, not English. English elves are the short things that make shoes. And Pegasus is Greco-Roman.

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You are correct about Pegasus. That was an odd inclusion. Elves and dwarves are based from Anglo-Saxon mythology with some elaboration from the Norse sagas. Modern West Germanic elves that make shoes are from Germany.

Xelebes said:

I'm restricting this to standard treatment. Trying to fit a makiskanewew, kitsune or basajaun into an English story, expecting them to be standard is just. . . odd.

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You're basing that on the assumption that the standard fantasy writer in English is English.

That hasn't been true for a long time.

I see no problem using 'standard' races. That said, I don't want to read the same-old same-old. Spice it up a bit. I like your idea of making elves evil, though I can think of a few times when it's been done.

I'm hesitant to agree with the idea of throwing Earthly cultures into a vat and mixing them up. Viking kitsunes? Native-american dwarves? Sure, go for it, but creativity like that would have to be pulled of pretty dang well for me to not wince at the cliche unclicheness.

What I do love is creating your own races. Maybe not even what you could consider your typical 'people' beings, such as giant sandworms or a race of aquatic snakemen.

Simply put: More creativity/originality=better story.

Levico said:

I'm hesitant to agree with the idea of throwing Earthly cultures into a vat and mixing them up.

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I would strongly advise against that, too. We have a thread on cultural appropriation over here.

If you borrow from other cultures, do so respectfully.

Native-american dwarves?

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We tend to call them "little people." (This isn't intended as a pun.)

Personally, I love elves! (Notice my avatar) They have captured my imagination, run off with it and are currently holding it hostage somewhere deep inside the forest. They said they'd return it to me once I finish putting them in my WIP. Or not. It'll depend on how they're feeling that day.

Orcs...not so much. If I'm going to have a race of evil creatures running around in my story I'd rather make up something original.

Still, I think if elves and orcs are close to your heart and you want to write about them then go ahead and write about elves and orcs. Just make sure the story is fresh and IMO it won't matter how "standard" the fantasy races are.

E.F.B. said:

Personally, I love elves! (Notice my avatar) They have captured my imagination, run off with it and are currently holding it hostage somewhere deep inside the forest. They said they'd return it to me once I finish putting them in my WIP. Or not. It'll depend on how they're feeling that day.

Orcs...not so much. If I'm going to have a race of evil creatures running around in my story I'd rather make up something original.

Still, I think if elves and orcs are close to your heart and you want to write about them then go ahead and write about elves and orcs. Just make sure the story is fresh and IMO it won't matter how "standard" the fantasy races are.

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This! I'm seconding this one, as I agree with most of it.

Also, a reminder. Many cultures have elf like, dwarf like, etc beings in their mythologies. It's not required that standard western definition of such beings and creatures be used.

If I read about elves, dwarves, orcs, vampires, or zombies on the back cover, the plot and first pages have got to blow my mind to make my buy the book. I'm a little more lenient with elves in UF, but I don't read tons of UF. If I see the word 'dark elf,' there's a 90% probability of it going straight back on the shelf. The bottom line is that I have limited time and money to spend on books I probably won't like, and creative new worlds are a big part of what I like about fantasy. This is a matter of taste, though. Enjoying orcs, elves, zombies, etc., is not a lesser point of view. It's just not mine.

I have elf-like races in my original fiction. They don't call themselves that, and their origin stories are completely different than the 'standard' elvish cosmologies. The main race of my sword & planet fiction has a resemblance to the trope of warrior-orcs. But again, I gave them profound differences.

I'd read fantasy featuring the standard tropes, but it has to be really well-written to catch my interest. I'd rather read the latest Lynn Flewelling novel (with elf-analog characters) than the next elf-dwarf-orc reboot of Tolkien or Dragonlance. Been reading the latter fantasy types since 1976, so it's going to take a lot of work to impress me.

And yeah, any book with a blurb about 'dark elves' is already weighted toward 'no buy' in my mind. I haven't seen it done well since Elizabeth Boyer's Norse-inspired novels.

Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs, like Werewolves, Vampires and Zombies are sort of the low-hanging fruit right now. I think there are plenty of good stories with any of them, but a lot of stories out there tend to fall back on cliche.

For an original take on fantasy races look at China Mieville. He actually had walking cacti in the Bas-Lag stories

Xelebes said:

Well, this is stories told in English. Stories told in Japanese will use the kitsune as standard, in Basque will use the basajaun, in Cree will use the wihtigo. What we need more of is translations and greater libraries in those languages.

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There are countless stories told in English that use non-English mythological beings. Why would you think stories told in Japanese use kitsune but not stories told in English?

I’ve personally read stories in English with Japanese mythological beings. Not to mention Arabic, Irish, Scottish, Norse, German, Russian, Chinese, Hopi, Navajo, Liberian, Egyptian, Ethiopian….scores and scores of books. Heck, if you want them all in one book, read American Gods by Gaiman. None of those books were odd. They were all enjoyable and all English.

And, although I don’t read those other languages, I’ll bet a decent portion of my library that there are stories in Japanese that use Irish mythological beings; stories in Basque that use Russian mythological beings; stories in Cree that use English mythological beings...ad infinatum.

They're a tough sell for me these days. Some of it's because the standard humanoid races often feel like substitutions for genuine human diversity or an excuse to give a character "superpowers," (she can hypnotize the beasts of the forests without even having to learn how because her grandma was an elf, don't 'cha know). Sometimes they're also used to make a uniformly evil enemy who is evil just because their entire race is evil.

Maybe I feel this way because of all the video games that have elves, dwarves, gnomes/halflings, dark elves etc. I get why they do this, for customizable game play, but the effect it's had on me is that whenever I run across these races in a novel I get that "this is going to read like someone's rpg or video game" vibe.

It's not always fair to feel this way, and sometimes they can be done well in fiction. But if I encounter a novel with elves etc. I definitely want it to not have that RPG or dungeon crawler vibe. Like others have said, there are tons of different traditions and fairy tales in European and other cultures that don't have the D&D take on humanoid fantasy races.