Said

Current style does, however = the style that is current.

Tautological, I know, but it is an important thing to remember. If I turn in THE FAERIE QUEENE, I'm going to get rejected by every publisher in the country. It doesn't reflect its quality but that it doesn't meet our expectations today.

This is the reason you don't see epic poems being published.

Neegh said:

I was looking over a MS from about 20 yaers ago and then I saw it.

A dialogue tag other than said.

...'Bleated'.

And it worked there.

*sigh.

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And I have a novel on my e-reader that was published about 3-4 years ago that has people bleating, groaning, slurring, grating words far more often than they just say them. I didn't even notice this until I did a search for the word "said" for another reason.

It's a bestseller, and I have not seen a single review where people have complained about the author's use of dialog tags.

It's not how I write, but this person has clearly made it work for him and his readers.

I should have said, “I was looking over one of my MS...”

I don't usually use dialogue tags other than said, and/or short descriptions of what the speaker is doing or seeing. However, now and then a bleat or snarled, might slip out.

When I described a character as a bulldog I couldn't resist having them growl and bark their dialogue.

When I read that someone "growled" a word out, I get a definite feel for what that means.

Maybe it's because I have a father in law who growls words out fairly often

I've never understood the argument that you can't snarl, bark, hiss, bleat a word etc because most readers understood what is meant and it creates an image.

My favourite book either uses words other than said or qualifies said with an -ly adverb. Personally, I don't care.

And then there's the argument that you can't hiss a word without S in it. So naturally I had to try it, and turns out -- you can, just like a snake hisses -- sorta compress everything as it comes out of your throat but don't use (or downplay) the vocal cords, and voila, hissed speech. Kinda like whispering but use the throat instead of the lips. No S required.

Like Usher, I don't care so long as my reading ear 'hears' the intent without having to work at it. Which is far more often improved by those 'other' words than it is distracted.

'Course it's no substitute for dialog that's in tune with how it's spoken, but that's not always perfectly obvious.

What is irksome is when an author develops a tic, like one who leaps to mind who overuses 'said quietly' to the point that when I reread those books I'm going to first edit out every use of 'quietly'. The overuse might not have annoyed except it was also used where the dialog was patently quiet, and more often when it just didn't fit.

Most dialogue is spoken, simply and plainly. It's being said. Most, but not all. Sometimes they're shouted or whispered or muttered or mused (it's a distinctive speech pattern in my experience) or screamed. Drawled if it's unusual for the character and not simply their accent.

I remember someone saying that a writer shouldn't have to use words like snarled or growled or moaned, instead of said/asked because if the character is well written, the reader will be able to infer how they speak. For example, if James Bond is talking to a woman and he says, "let me give you a hand", the reader knows he's not going to be muttering it shyly.

So I think if you can't get what you want across with said/asked 90% of the time, you've done a poor job of developing the character.

Coconut said:

So I think if you can't get what you want across with said/asked 90% of the time, you've done a poor job of developing the character.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giaMRyn47Xg&list=PLHj4H3VbuRRP4qEPuzs6G3Szw9Y-1ycrB

I think they did rather a good job of character development.

Personally, I don't think it's a case of not getting the character over with dialogue. My dialogue and ability to get a character over has got me the interest of a BBC producer with my first ever script. There are a million and one reasons why a word may be the best choice.

Coconut said:

I remember someone saying that a writer shouldn't have to use words like snarled or growled or moaned, instead of said/asked because if the character is well written, the reader will be able to infer how they speak. For example, if James Bond is talking to a woman and he says, "let me give you a hand", the reader knows he's not going to be muttering it shyly.

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I agree that in most cases, you should be able to paint a bigger picture for the reader using all the narrative tools and that the "atmosphere" of a scene would probably inform the reader how to "hear" the dialog. The exception, I think, would be if you have a scene where the dialog would be expected in a certain way, but it's important that the reader know it's not being said that way.

For example, two characters sneaking up on someone and one character stage-whispers a line to indicate their presence... or an angry scene where you expect a character to yell but he's so angry he whispers instead... perhaps a very sophisticated character who is so discombobulated that she starts hissing and sputtering her lines.

This can be an interesting problem with non-fiction, as we base a lot of what we're trying to convey on HOW people said things when we interview them. I, too, try to use "said" as often as possible -- but there are times when it just doesn't carry the weight you need to do your job.

Sometimes you've got to say "laughed" so your reader knows your source was kidding or really, really enjoying a memory. Other times, you'll say "sighed" to convey someone's frustration. Try as you might, there are times "said" just won't do what you need. I actually had a conversation with my editor about this very thing, and his editorial advice was typically succinct and funny:

"That's fine. But don't get crazy with it."

Yup.

Sunnyside said:

This can be an interesting problem with non-fiction, as we base a lot of what we're trying to convey on HOW people said things when we interview them. I, too, try to use "said" as often as possible -- but there are times when it just doesn't carry the weight you need to do your job.

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That's another good point -- using anything but 'said' in nonfiction is making a judgment call on how it was said, but you may still need to get more across than mere 'said' can convey.

heza said:

I agree that in most cases, you should be able to paint a bigger picture for the reader using all the narrative tools and that the "atmosphere" of a scene would probably inform the reader how to "hear" the dialog. The exception, I think, would be if you have a scene where the dialog would be expected in a certain way, but it's important that the reader know it's not being said that way.

For example, two characters sneaking up on someone and one character stage-whispers a line to indicate their presence... or an angry scene where you expect a character to yell but he's so angry he whispers instead... perhaps a very sophisticated character who is so discombobulated that she starts hissing and sputtering her lines.

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Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like that's a good technique for that type of situation. The other technique that comes to mind is italicizing a word to emphasize that the intonation should be interpreted in a particular way. "I don't think you should do that" vs "I don't think you should do that".

I think italicizing is better than veering away from 'said'.

Reziac said:

That's another good point -- using anything but 'said' in nonfiction is making a judgment call on how it was said, but you may still need to get more across than mere 'said' can convey.

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Making a judgement call in non-fiction sounds like it can open the writer up to a lot of criticism if they aren't careful. I'd be more inclined to use 'said' than ever. I've read books based off medical cases where they describe the patient's symptoms and how they're feeling, and then if the person says anything, that background conveys how the words are being said. I can't think of any articles I've read recently in newspapers where people are quoted with anything other than said.

I could see it making sense if a person has a really unique voice, like some people have problems with their vocal chords and sound hoarse all the time, it might work there.

This was all very helpful. Thank you! I fell victim to the issue of using said too many times. Of course, I tend to have many scenes involving more than two characters and argue a lot. I've tried to be creative about how to do it without using "said" so much and still make it clear who's talking, but its not been easy.

I also use alternate tags because of POV. If I'm writing from someone's perspective, I like to use alternate tags to show either the POV character's impression of or opinion/emotional response to how someone says something. I'll try to minimize it, though.

Coconut said:

Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like that's a good technique for that type of situation. The other technique that comes to mind is italicizing a word to emphasize that the intonation should be interpreted in a particular way. "I don't think you should do that" vs "I don't think you should do that".

I think italicizing is better than veering away from 'said'.

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And yet I've seen this quote attributed to Self-editing for Fiction Writers:

Also, since generations of hacks have used italics to punch up otherwise weak dialogue ("I have just about had it up to here with your get-rich-quick-schemes!"), frequent italics have come to signal weak writing. So you should never resort to them unless they are the only practical choice."

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Show me a piece of advice, and I'll show you someone claiming you should never do it. It's a wonder we're sane.

Haha, that's great. I do agree that frequent italics is bad on the eyes. I think it's ok once every 2000 words or so.

heza said:

And yet I've seen this quote attributed to Self-editing for Fiction Writers:

Show me a piece of advice, and I'll show you someone claiming you should never do it. It's a wonder we're sane.

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Writers aren't exactly known for being sane.

Just remember this important rule: Everyone must write the same! Our work is not done until we can program computers to write stories (and every story looks like it was written by a computer that was following every rule).

Roxxsmom said:

Writers aren't exactly known for being sane.

Just remember this important rule: Everyone must write the same! Our work is not done until we can program computers to write stories (and every story looks like it was written by a computer that was following every rule).

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Too late!

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/08/2...er-program-that-automatically-writes-fiction/

Oh, and this:

http://www.insidescience.org/content/computer-algorithm-seeks-crack-code-fiction-bestsellers/1530

Coconut said:

Making a judgement call in non-fiction sounds like it can open the writer up to a lot of criticism if they aren't careful. I'd be more inclined to use 'said' than ever.

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Exactly my point. In nonfiction, describing speech (vs. just stating it was said) can slip over into editorializing.

Fortunately I write fiction, so I can have any opinion of my characters' dialog that I wish.

When I was young, I had a favourite writer who seemed to be allergic to the word "said." 20 years later, I still remember this fact about his writing. I don't think it improved his writing, but rather drew attention to the tags rather than the dialogue itself. Anything that has ever been used as a dialogue tag...he used it. Including "ejaculated." Which is funnier to me now than it was at the time.

I don't want people to remember my writing for its dialogue tags. But I don't completely avoid tags other than "said." They have their uses.

Usher said:

I've never understood the argument that you can't snarl, bark, hiss, bleat a word etc because most readers understood what is meant and it creates an image.

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Characters barking and whinnying their dialogue certainly do create an image, for me. Often, this image is of an animal who can speak.

This may or may not take me out of the story, depending on how good it is. It's just how I function as a reader.

LJD said:

Including "ejaculated." Which is funnier to me now than it was at the time.

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I have a new goal for my next MS: find a way to use this un-ironically.

Well, I sometimes use "whispered" and "shouted" instead of "said". These words make tone different and it's important when you want to highlight emotions in the dialogue.