F.C.C Votes: Yes on Net Neutrality

Don

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Obviously, Lily Tomlin died in vain. I remember my parents paying $40 a month (in 1971 dollars, which were worth something) to rent a single, shared-line, five-pound bakelite telephone with a dial and a six-foot cord. Note the word "rent." They couldn't even legally own that phone. It was property of the telephone company and had to be returned if they asked for it. If AT&T had been able to maintain their stranglehold on the regulators they had at the time, we'd still be renting corded phones for a fortune. Luckily, upstarts in other industries, essentially unregulated, had different ideas, and AT&T (and their government lapdogs) were slow to catch on.
 

Amadan

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If AT&T had been able to maintain their stranglehold on the regulators they had at the time, we'd still be renting corded phones for a fortune. Luckily, upstarts in other industries, essentially unregulated, had different ideas, and AT&T (and their government lapdogs) were slow to catch on.


That's an... interesting way to describe the government's much-decried-by-libertarians-of-the-day lawsuit that broke up Bell.
 

Don

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That's an... interesting way to describe the government's much-decried-by-libertarians-of-the-day lawsuit that broke up Bell.
Cite? IIRC, both Reason magazine and the CATO institute supported the breakup, just as they supported the deregulation of the airlines that brought affordable air transportation to the masses. Libertarians generally stand on the side of innovation and the breakup of government-created monopolies. Perhaps you've confused libertarians and conservatives again. ;)
That was in what, '82? And it was proceeded by how many years of dominance under government regulation as a public utility?
That's (ETA: the Communications Act of 1934) been pushed down the memory hole along with the supreme's support of Jim Crow laws and the easy-money policies of the "roaring 20s," because government only fixes problems, it never, ever, causes them. It's in the business of supplying crutches, not breaking legs, dontchaknow?
 
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Amadan

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Cite? IIRC, both Reason magazine and the CATO institute supported the breakup, just as they supported the deregulation of the airlines that brought affordable air transportation to the masses. Libertarians generally stand on the side of innovation and the breakup of government-created monopolies.

I don't know what Reason or CATO's positions were, but I've been hearing for years from conservatives and libertarians that the gummint had no business arbitrarily breaking up Bell. Libertarians may be generally against monopolies in theory, but it seems to pain them when one is actually broken up since it involves the government actually using enforcement powers to interfere with private commerce.

That's been pushed down the memory hole along with the supreme's support of Jim Crow laws and the easy-money policies of the "roaring 20s," because government only fixes problems, it never, ever, causes them. It's in the business of supplying crutches, not breaking legs, dontchaknow?

I've never in my life heard anyone seriously espouse the position "the government only fixes problems, it never, ever causes them."
 

Don

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I don't know what Reason or CATO's positions were, but I've been hearing for years from conservatives and libertarians that the gummint had no business arbitrarily breaking up Bell. Libertarians may be generally against monopolies in theory, but it seems to pain them when one is actually broken up since it involves the government actually using enforcement powers to interfere with private commerce.
Again, cite? I don't know a single libertarian pained by the breakup of AT&T, and I'd guess I know a whole hell of a lot more of them than you. The AT&T monopoly, created by government action through the FCC, could only be termed "private" commerce in the broadest of terms. Once again, I'm not aware of a single libertarian voice that would proclaim the AT&T government-created monopoly an example of "private commerce." OTOH, there were any number of conservative spokespersons screaming like stuck pigs over the breakup, and defending the AT&T monopoly as "free enterprise," a mistake only crony crapitolist lackies would make.

Truthfully, you seem to be conflating conservative and libertarian viewpoints to a seriously painful degree. Conservatives and libertarians have widely differing positions concerning crony crapitolism. The Wesley Mouches and Hank Reardons of the world are actually mortal enemies, not BFFs.
 
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nighttimer

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Obviously, Lily Tomlin died in vain.

Lily Tomlin is 75 and still very much alive.

Unless she is dead and AT&T slowed my connection to a complete crawl. :rolleyes
 

Amadan

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Truthfully, you seem to be conflating conservative and libertarian viewpoints to a seriously painful degree. Conservatives and libertarians have widely differing positions concerning crony crapitolism. The Wesley Mouches and Hank Reardons of the world are actually mortal enemies, not BFFs.

Maybe all the people I heard screaming about it over the years were conservatives who only used "libertarian" as a convenient label, then.
 

robeiae

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I'm not sure how it matters, one way or the other, what people were saying about the breakup over thirty years ago.

The point is, ATT benefited mightily from government regulation and oversight of the phone system as a public utility for a long time. The government benefited, as well. The consumer? Not so much.
 

Don

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Net Neutrality: Triumph of the Ruling Class
Here’s what’s really going on. The incumbent rulers of the world’s most exciting technology have decided to lock down the prevailing market conditions to protect themselves against rising upstarts in a fast-changing market. To impose a new rule against throttling content or using the market price system to allocate bandwidth resources protects against innovations that would disrupt the status quo.

What’s being sold as a public fairness and a wonderful favor to consumers is actually a sop to industrial giants who are seeking untrammeled access to your wallet and an end to competitive threats to market power.
...
But how can you sell such a nefarious plan? You get in good with the regulators. You support the idea in general, with some reservations, while tweaking the legislation in your favor. You know full well that this raises the costs to new competitors. When it passes, call it a vote for the “open internet” that will “preserve the right to communicate freely online.”

But when you look closely at the effects, the reality is exactly the opposite. It closes down market competition by generally putting government in charge of deciding who can and cannot play in the market. It erects massive new barriers to entry for upstart firms while hugely subsidizing the largest and most well-heeled content providers.
...
If you look at how all this shakes out, this is really no different from how most every other sector in life has come to be regulated by the state, from food to money to medicine to education. It always shakes out this way, with a sleepy public believing the propaganda, an elite group of insiders manipulating the regulations for their own benefits, a left-wing intelligentsia that is naive enough to believe platitudes about fairness, and a right wing that is mostly ignorant and for sale to the highest bidder.

Great for the one percent: not so hot for the rest of us.
 
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Hoplite

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I saw one blog post in opposition to NN that basically said "well, why should some pimply teen with a blog have the same access to an audience as a major media player such as the Weekly Standard?"

But I think a large portion of the opposition are people who don't realize that the regulations simply make mandatory the way the internet has been operating all along. It's much easier to support the status quo than to oppose it; I suspect most people on both sides think they're supporting the status quo, or at least a smaller change to the status quo than what the other ones say. And some of these people on both sides are right.

That's all the sensible opposition. I don't really worry about the other kind.

:ROFL:


I am in favor of Net Neutrality, but I also think it's more complicated than either side is presenting it - no, we definitely do not want corporations stepping in to "regulate" instead of the government, but the last few decades of "everything is free online" have created a set of false expectations that everything can continue to be free online forever without people getting paid.

I mean, Netflix may hate it that they have to pay extra for preferential data flow (and their customers may hate it that they will pass those costs along), but when streaming Netflix sucks down huge amounts of relative bandwidth, you can't expect the bandwidth providers to just keep treating them the same as AW.

+1 to both.

Net Neutrality: Triumph of the Ruling Class


Great for the one percent: not so hot for the rest of us.

There is no "us vs. the 1%" here. Either way some big corporate giant(s) win, and its a matter of finding the least crappy path for the consumer.

What follows is opinion:
Google, Amazon, Netflix, etc. want net neutrality so they don't have to pay huge fees to ISPs, and thus increase their profits.

ISPs don't want net neutrality so they can charge huge fees to Google, Amazon, Netflix, etc., and thus increase their profits.
 

benbradley

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Cite? IIRC, both Reason magazine and the CATO institute supported the breakup...
Don, it's shocking how many people misunderstand (misunderestimate?) libertarianism. Here Michael Shermer talks about how he no longer uses the label for himself because so many people called him names related to it:
http://www.skepticality.com/arcing-toward-morality/

And then there's this I heard/saw a few weeks ago - I was most shocked at the "military folks protecting you and your neighbor" line, but the rest just confirmed it for me. That (and the do-wop singing) prompted my trying-not-to-get-too-f'ing-political comment:
http://fawm.org/songs/47846/
What I'd like to know, since you're objecting to it being classified as a public utility, is what part of delivering internet service is not like a public utility. Because it sure looks like it has all the features of a public utility to me.
So now our Internet will have the digital equivalent of fluoride added, as well as filtering out all those Bad Things for us? That would be a Good Thing, because I've never had private entities such as the Google search engine or Firefox web browser tell me when a site is infected with malware...

 
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clintl

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So now our Internet will have the digital equivalent of fluoride added, as well as filtering out all those Bad Things for us? That would be a Good Thing, because I've never had private entities such as the Google search engine or Firefox web browser tell me when a site is infected with malware...


No wonder you're getting that message. You've got the entire internet loaded into your browser all at the same time.
 

Don

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The more I dig into this, the more it resembles Harry J. Anslinger's job protection racket that brought us the war on Marijuana. As POTS (plain old telephone service) is dying, broadband is exploding. The FCC's value as a regulatory agency is waning as millions of POTS lines are disconnected every year. They need a new reason to justify their existence, much as ol' Harry needed the demon weed to give him a new job after his job as assistant commissioner in the United States Bureau of Prohibition was derailed by the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] Amendment. His demonization of marijuana worked, and he was appointed the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, where he had adequate funding to go after those evil jazz musicians and people of color who were raping innocent white girls under the influence of the evil weed.

This promises to turn out just as well for the common citizen.
 

Monkey

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Actually, Libertarians strike me far more as "let big business do whatever the fuck it wants" than Conservatives.

Let's look at the party platform, shall we? http://www.lp.org/platform

The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.

This would seem to prohibit the breaking up of monopolies, no?

Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. [...] Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

Basically, from what I've read here and elsewhere, the Libertarian party believes that big businesses should be able to pollute all they want with no government oversight or prevention. Only "free market" remedies, such as boycotts, should be able to be used against polluters. Of course, those remedies are currently available IN ADDITION TO government regulations, and we still have big businesses who do everything in their power to circumvent the restrictions - and do so without real penalty.

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.
Again with no environmental considerations whatsoever. And while no subsidies could sound good, no government say in energy production would very quickly become an issue. Think frakking has caused an uproar? There are even dirtier methods of energy production. When the bottom line is the entire bottom line, people suffer.

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository institutions of all types.

Oh, yes. Let's deregulate banks. THAT'LL go great. This is far, FAR right-wing stuff - much further than your rank and file Tea Partier would take things.

Of course, there's always that argument that mega-corporations wouldn't exist in the libertarian utopia. Except:
We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of entities based on voluntary association.

No minimum wage or worker safety standards or overtime or anything else for workers, either:
Employment and compensation agreements between private employers and employees are outside the scope of government, and these contracts should not be encumbered by government-mandated benefits or social engineering.

No public education:
Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we would restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.

I mean, there's voucher programs, and then there's this. It's farther to the right than the right.

No social safety net beyond private charities and such - which is another thing we already have IN ADDITION to government benefits and job retirement plans, and already doesn't fully cover the needy:
Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.

Farther right than all but the extreme right-wing fringe. What I see here is a libertarian ideal where big corporations can pay whatever pittance they want, require whatever work (dangerous or otherwise) they wish for as long as they wish, can pollute and otherwise degrade the environment, can monopolize education, don't have to offer any sort of benefits or overtime, don't have to negotiate, don't face any ethics violations no matter what they do, can use banking and energy production and contracting practices - among others - that would currently run afoul of all sorts of laws for very good reason, have no size or state-line limits, have nothing preventing them from forming monopolies or price-setting or price-gouging, ect.

In other words, they could do whatever the hell they wanted, pretty much. And if people didn't like it, well, they'd be free to blog about it. They could boycott. Maybe they'd build their own cellphone towers if they didn't like what the cell companies were doing, and use their own land in order to build alternate roads when all the roads near themselves became McTolls.

For instance, when it comes to discrimination:
Government should neither deny nor abridge any individual's human right based upon sex, wealth, ethnicity, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Members of private organizations retain their rights to set whatever standards of association they deem appropriate, and individuals are free to respond with ostracism, boycotts and other free market solutions. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

In other words, discrimination based on any of those things - sex, wealth, ethnicity, creed, age, national origin, and all - that's all fine for any corporation.

And if you don't like it, blog and boycott and stuff. Again, we already have those "free market solutions." But those seem to be the ONLY solutions to corporate power that the Libertarians will accept.
 
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calieber

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Whatever I may think of Don, I'm fairly sure he's not part of, or even on the side of, the Libertarian Party.
 

Synonym

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"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." Ronald Reagan

That pretty much sums up my opinion on this action. Innovation throttled. New venues for the government to tax and attach fees. Any time there is 300 some odd pages of 'rules' for something, and they aren't willing to let the public see it, it probably won't be good.

Just sayin'. Hope I'm wrong.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Actually, Libertarians strike me far more as "let big business do whatever the fuck it wants" than Conservatives.

<snip>

And if you don't like it, blog and boycott and stuff. Again, we already have those "free market solutions." But those seem to be the ONLY solutions to corporate power that the Libertarians will accept.

And yet amongst themselves many Libertarians argue that boycotts are ineffective, leading one to wonder if the proffering of boycotts as the best and only solution permitted to aggrieved people whose rights and dignities are trampled might not be a touch cynical.

Libertarian journalist Scott Shackford analyzed boycotts for reason.com.
oycotts, particularly national ones, are hard to pull off. The success of a boycott is proportional to that business’s dependency on those who are aggrieved. ...

But those lessons are rather lost now. As the recent Chick-fil-A adventures show us, boycotts don’t have the same force when spread across a nation with an increasingly diverse community and an even more diverse marketplace.
Frankly, I don't see why citizens urging their government to take beneficial action in an organized way is wrong action and boycotts are right action. But I am certainly glad we have the option of the former as well as the latter.
 
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Monkey

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Whatever I may think of Don, I'm fairly sure he's not part of, or even on the side of, the Libertarian Party.

Amadan was talking about self-identified libertarians. He did not go into detail about "libertarians who identify as such without supporting the libertarian party." And yet Don came in disagreeing about libertarian thought and saying he probably knew more libertarians than Amadan. I'm assuming he meant self-identifying libertarians - and that most of those people are likely to vote for libertarian candidates. In fact, even though the "big L little l" distinction has been mentioned to the point of tediousness on these boards, I would guess that most people who self-identify as libertarian support libertarian candidates. At any rate, like Amadan, Don made no distinction between "libertarians" and "libertarians who don't agree with the political party."

They were having a bit of a disagreement as to where libertarians stood on the issue of breaking up monopolies, so I referred to the libertarian party platform.
 
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benbradley

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So now we know the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a republican ("and to the republic for which it stands"), and we get to talk about the democrat party as well as the republic party...

"So, Ben, you say you're a human being, where does the Human Being Party stand on the issue of ..."
 

Zoombie

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Why do I think in a few years, we'll be able to re-write the "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" sentence, but only using the various meanings of the word Libertarian?
 

Monkey

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So now we know the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a republican ("and to the republic for which it stands"), and we get to talk about the democrat party as well as the republic party...

"So, Ben, you say you're a human being, where does the Human Being Party stand on the issue of ..."

The Pledge thing is so ridiculous I can only interpret as snark.

We do, indeed, talk about the democrat and republican parties at some length here on these boards. We discuss trends, party platforms, and generally-accepted assumptions (such as Democrats being pro-choice and Republicans being pro-life, even though we acknowledge that not ALL are.) In general, we acknowledge that our favored party, should we have one, does things we don't like and yet is still the party it claims to be and is still our favored party.

As to the last part of your post, again, I can only see it as snark. I'd feel really pedantic pointing out all the ways in which it isn't analogous, so I won't.