What is Considered 'Good' Writing Anyway?

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Ruv Draba

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Good fictional writing depends on your story and your target reader. Your readers will call your writing 'good' if it presents a new and interesting story in an approaching, compelling and enjoyable way.

That won't mean the same thing for every story, or every group of target readers. Your writing may not be called good if you're presenting the wrong story or writing for readers you don't much understand or care for.
 

Perks

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Good is what you like. Which isn't even in the same zipcode as saying that what you don't care for is bad.
 

KingM

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In addition to the other excellent comments on this thread, I think it's critical to respect what you are writing. If you think romance writing sucks and so you think you can toss off a romance novel and sell it with little trouble, you are bound to be disabused of this notion. You can only write well when you respect and even love the material.

It's true that some people are skilled enough, or have enough of a track record that they can go through the motions and still achieve commercial success, but this still doesn't mean that hack work is any good.

I'd say this applies doubly to literary fiction. I don't see how you would find success as a literary writer when you don't respect the genre and you don't appreciate/understand the masters of the field.

In the end, if you don't respect and love literary fiction, wouldn't you be better off writing something that you do respect and love?
 

RobJ

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That's why I don't enter writing contests anymore. It's too subjective to actually mean anything, whether I win or lose (mostly lose).
Yeah, I agree, competitions are subjective. Still, I wouldn't say they're meaningless. The better stories tend to stand the most chance of winning, and how many there are will depend on the quality the competition attracts.

I got a third place in my first competition some years ago. The judge's comments were published after the winners were announced, and going by those it's possible that out of just over a hundred entries I was up against maybe as few as a dozen other stories for a place. The rest were all discounted for the many reasons given in the judge's comments, including such things as not following the rules, lack of originality of idea/theme.

Still, I've known a couple of people who've had significant success in large numbers of competitions, so they were doing something right.
 

Cranky

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If you would have taken a moment to see the date on the post I made when I asked people to be gentle, I had never joined a forum like this before and it was my first contribution to SYW . I had no idea what the attitude was nor what kind of reception I'd get. If you will note, after that post, I dropped the 'be gentle' part mostly because of the fairly good reception my work got.

Also, not feeling motivated at one particular time is absolutely no indication of how hard someone works. Some writers feel compelled to write everyday. I don't because whenever I try to write when I don't feel the urge or the spark, I'm never satisfied. Also I mentioned that I had other non-writing issues I was dealing with at the time so my remark certainly doesn't say much about 'why my subs were rejected'. A foolish comment like that indicates someone making a judgement about me and my work when they are truly ignorant - in every sense -of both.

Read my submissions in SYW. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I have had excellent feedback and comments. I am proud of my efforts especially in light of the fact that I'm working with very little to nil chances of any sort of recognition. I may go to my grave without having a single word I've written ever being published but it certainly does not stop me from working my hardest and writing the very best that I can.

The inference that I am lazy and just sitting around scribbling on a note pad whenever the fancy hits me and then expecting to submit stories to The Atlantic Monthly that are going to win me a Pulitzer is ridiculous in the extreme.

I'll be a bit blunt here and ask you, Mark, what it is that you are hoping to establish by asking the question in your OP. Because, quite honestly, there are plenty of other writers (and readers) who think that Hemingway is shite, etc. So, you aren't alone in your tastes. Mark that column, then.

If it's to establish that literary magazines have the bias you believe they do, then I think several other posters have also answered that by stating that they in fact, do. What is also true, I'm betting, is that if a story were submitted to them by a writer who didn't have those vaunted letters after their names, but the story itself was truly excellent and (this is the important part) to *their* tastes and editorial aims, they'd buy it in a nanosecond, no matter the author's lack of qualifications.

If you're looking for validation, it appears you've found it in the feedback you've gotten from the SYW denizens. That fact, combined with the above, really ought to be enough to encourage you to keep writing, and keep trying, and keep submitting. The question you're really facing, near as I can tell, is if you're submitting the right work to the right places. Perhaps your writing (I haven't read any of your excerpts in SYW as of yet) is more mainstream or contemporary than it is literary. Submitting to literary magazines, then, wouldn't net you the response you are hoping for.

Research your markets, fine tune your stories to the best of your ability, and that is really all that you can do. You can't dictate taste, so it's best to tailor your submissions to the places that most closely dovetail to your work.

A little less defensiveness would probably go a long way around here and in the submissions process, too.
 

Mark Welsh

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A very good reply, Cranky. Thank you. I feel much better now (and less defensive).

The pressure builds up every once in a while and has to be blown off. It's good for the constitution.

Thanks again.
 

Cranky

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Well, Dog knows I've been there and done that before myself, so I'm glad you're feeling better.

And you're welcome. :)
 

RobJ

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If you would have taken a moment to see the date on the post I made when I asked people to be gentle, I had never joined a forum like this before and it was my first contribution to SYW . I had no idea what the attitude was nor what kind of reception I'd get. If you will note, after that post, I dropped the 'be gentle' part mostly because of the fairly good reception my work got.

Also, not feeling motivated at one particular time is absolutely no indication of how hard someone works. Some writers feel compelled to write everyday. I don't because whenever I try to write when I don't feel the urge or the spark, I'm never satisfied. Also I mentioned that I had other non-writing issues I was dealing with at the time so my remark certainly doesn't say much about 'why my subs were rejected'. A foolish comment like that indicates someone making a judgement about me and my work when they are truly ignorant - in every sense -of both.
Unfortunately for you, Mark, the 'be gentle' post is still there, so anyone looking at your posting history will still see it. As is the post you made when, as you admitted, you couldn't be bothered to make the effort to fix it before posting, expecting others to point out the problems:

I was going through some old MS word files and came across a story I had done some time ago and that I had submitted to Glimmer Train. Of course they rejected it but, looking it over after so long a time, I still like it. I can see, though, that the plot does need some fixing and the story itself more clarity and tightening. At this point I really don't feel like making the effort so, until I get motivated, I've decided to post an excerpt that struck me as kind of nice.
So I don't think the comments made are ignorant. You still sound to me like you're making excuses. But, again, I wish you luck. Who knows, maybe your next sub will be a hit. The only way you'll know is by polishing your work and sending it out.
 

Sevvy

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but the story itself was truly excellent and (this is the important part) to *their* tastes and editorial aims, they'd buy it in a nanosecond, no matter the author's lack of qualifications.

Great point! I think this goes for markets of any genre. Editors have their own tastes, and they choose stories that they like and want to publish.
 

Cranky

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Great point! I think this goes for markets of any genre. Editors have their own tastes, and they choose stories that they like and want to publish.

Yep. Which is why it is a *really* good idea to buy and read several copies of any magazine you're submitting to. (General "you" here, btw) It's pretty much the only way I can think of to get an idea of what an editor (or editorial team) is looking for in their submissions without knowing them personally or from the statement you sometimes see on places like Duotrope. It's more illuminating (at least for me) than the more general submission guidelines you see.

Forgot to mention that part, Sevvy, so thanks for giving me an opening to be a bigmouth again. :D
 
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KellyAssauer

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There are so many amazing threads here at AW, and this one here is really interesting! So in an effort to be helpful I'd like to insert the following link:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141801

This takes you to the thread: What's Your 5 favorite books of all time? which might not sound like an answer to this 'question of good writing'... but it might steer people in the direction of other AW members with the same tastes in writing & reading, and perhaps some assistance in where best to submit your stories.

It's been several years since I first posted anything to SYW here, and I doubt that any of those first posts were good enough to consider submitting. I hope my writing has evolved since and the crits seem to suggest that. It was a long and difficult journey trying to find the voice I needed to allow this story to tell itself! It took a lot of experimentation, patience, and listening on my part, and I have AW to thank for that! But as to the question of good writing? I'm can't answer that. I've read Voltaire's Candide one too many times! ;)
.
 

maestrowork

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Who would you name as an example of good writing?

I can't imagine considering Hemingway and Catch-22 outright bad writing. You don't have to like it, but surely you see what they were going for and how hard that is to do?

There.

No literary writer worth their salt is going to find Hemingway or Catch-22 mundane and badly written even if they don't like it. There's a big difference between not liking something and thinking it's just crap, and that's called "attitude."
 

blacbird

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Stop concentrating on these people and concentrate on people that have succeeded without MFA after their name. They did it, I can do it, you can do it. Thing is to do it

In addition to Joseph Heller, writers who never got an MFA include:

John Steinbeck
William Faulkner
Ernest Hemingway
Carson McCullers
Jack Kerouac
Allen Ginsburg
Richard Brautigan
Philip K. Dick
Ray Bradbury
Tony Hillerman
Pete Dexter
Cormac McCarthy
Kurt Vonnegut
Carolyn Chute
Stephen King
Dean Koontz
Norman Mailer
Gore Vidal
John Updike
Barbara Kingsolver
. . .

If you want further proof, consider this: I have an M.F.A. from the most prestigious writer's program in the nation (Iowa), where my advisor was John Irving, and another major instructor was Raymond Carver. Also attended classes with John Cheever and Anthony Burgess.

And I haven't managed to get jackshit published.
 

backslashbaby

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I don't understand where you get the idea I'm 'expecting others to point out the problems'. Where do you see that? As I explained and as you quoted yourself, I posted it because 'I thought it was nice'. I did not infer in any way that I'm posting this because I'm too lazy to fix it and expect others to do my work for me.

You are implying, once again, that I'm saying things I haven't said and if don't think that is ignorant, you better go get a dictionary.

In SYW? Nah, if you just like it, blog it or something. SYW is where you ask for critiques by nature of the forum. I don't believe we have a Show and Tell, although that would be fun :)
 

Polenth

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The fact that many responses infer or state outright that I'm just 'making excuses' or that I'm 'bitter' or that the points I tried to make 'say alot about me' or the fact that I don't always feel like polishing and fixing my work is some weird sort of indication 'why my subs are always rejected' and that I'm just waiting around for 'others to fix up my work' are quite astonishing in their presumptuousness and downright arrogance. I also get the feeling, looking over this thread as a whole that when one person goes on the attack, weaker personalities like to jump on board to partake as well and that is something I've encountered on other boards so I certainly shouldn't be surprised.

I had hopes for Absolute Write but I see I'm sadly mistaken. For what it's worth, have a nice day. I'm never coming back. You can find somebody else to gang up on.

Markets send you form rejections, so it's because they only take MFA writers. People criticise your approach, but it can't be true because they worded it rudely. People agree with other people's comments, so they're just people with weak personalities. People suggest cutting out the backstory and starting at the start of the story, but they're formula writers so you can ignore it.

It seems that whenever you get feedback, you discount it. Not everyone is going to be right... but they're not all wrong either.

The question to think on is why you asked for feedback in the first place. Was it to hear what you wanted to hear, or to hear what you needed to hear to get published? If it's the former, write for fun and don't post your work to critique forums. If it's the latter, you do need to start considering that sometimes other people are right. Taking your ball and going home is not going to help you improve.
 

RobJ

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Hi Mark,

Let me start by saying that I understand your frustration. Many of us have experienced it. We're just like you, we've developed a love of writing and that's why we're here.

There's no reason why you should feel that you don't belong her, or shouldn't feel welcome, and despite the frustration you're feeling right now there's no reason why you shouldn't continue to post here and get support with your writing, if you wish to.

I hope you continue to post your work because your frustration is a sign of your desire to progress, and if you don't overcome the hump we're seeing here in this thread, you're only likely to have to address it some place else. At some point, when enough people are suggesting that there's a problem, you have to consider that they may be right (and granted, they're not always).

If the method of delivery is what's concerning you, don't let that stop you from being here. Take it up with the individuals concerned through PM, politely, or take it to the forum staff if you think that's necessary. Sometimes people do get it wrong, and most of us are grown up enough to stand back and see it if a moderator tells us so. I think everyone here is trying to offer you beneficial advice, but I can see how some of the posts in the thread might upset you. I don't think that's our intention. It's not mine.

I don't understand where you get the idea I'm 'expecting others to point out the problems'. Where do you see that? As I explained and as you quoted yourself, I posted it because 'I thought it was nice'. I did not infer in any way that I'm posting this because I'm too lazy to fix it and expect others to do my work for me.
I got the idea that you expected others to point out the problems because you posted it in SYW for critique. Nothing more than that.

As expressed earlier, you get the most benefit from critiques if you polish your work as much as you can before submitting. The standard of work submitted for critique isn't always polished, that's a fact of life, and yours isn't notably poorer than anyone else's, so you're not being singled out in that sense.

Advising you to polish before posting is an honest attempt to help you. Some people are indeed lazy and post work that they could have fixed better themselves before posting, and some post rough work simply because they don't appreciate the need to polish before posting.

You are implying, once again, that I'm saying things I haven't said and if don't think that is ignorant, you better go get a dictionary.
I'm not implying much, to be honest. I thought my points were fairly clearly stated, but you know how it is, things don't always come across clearly in a forum post so there's always plenty of room for misunderstanding. Such misunderstandings are often resolved quite easily, but sometimes they are a source of contention, unfortunately.

I had hopes for Absolute Write but I see I'm sadly mistaken. For what it's worth, have a nice day. I'm never coming back. You can find somebody else to gang up on.
I'm sorry to hear that, Mark, and hope that you do come back to the thread, take on board what people have tried to say and stick around, because I have no doubt that if you do stick around the people here will give you the support and encouragement you're looking for.

It would certainly be unfair to judge AW based on my posts, and it's mine you've been quoting in reply. There are many people here who are prepared to help you, and if for some reason you don't like my comments you can always simply ignore them.

I do understand your frustration in this thread, and I'm sorry if you felt you were being attacked. That happens. It wasn't my intention to attack you. I apologise for any upset that my posts may have caused you, and hope you'll see past that and continue to post here.

If you do decide not to return, then good luck with your writing anyway.
 

seun

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Seeing as I said this:

If this is literally what the OP said, then I don't think we need to look any further as to why his subs aren't working.

Then I have to assume that this is aimed at me:

or the fact that I don't always feel like polishing and fixing my work is some weird sort of indication 'why my subs are always rejected'

If it's worth anything (and as the OP seems to have flounced, I'm not sure if it is), I stand by my point. If a writer doesn't have the interest to produce work to the best of their abilities, then why should they expect publishers to accept their work?

For any writer, it comes down to this: treat your work and intended audience with the respect both deserve. If you don't, then you're just wasting your time.
 

Monkey

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I don't understand where you get the idea I'm 'expecting others to point out the problems'. Where do you see that? As I explained and as you quoted yourself, I posted it because 'I thought it was nice'. I did not infer in any way that I'm posting this because I'm too lazy to fix it and expect others to do my work for me.

Ah. A misunderstanding, stemming from different expectations from the SYW board.

SYW is a forum for constructive criticism. The whole point is that you post in order to get feedback, that you can then use to improve the piece.

If you post there, the assumption is that you want others to look over your work and make suggestions so that it will be better when you rewrite it.

Most of the rest of this is just a flounce (and without even using the provided tempates :( ), but I will say this:posters here might not agree with you, and they aren't always beacons of sweetness and light, but professionalism doesn't require either of those things. Neither does respect. If anyone acts unprofessionally or disrespectfully, by all means, hit the little triangle-shaped "report post" button. I didn't do that on this thread because I didn't see any of that here.

What I saw was people disagreeing with some of what was written in the OP, but understanding the frustration of being a writer whose work was just rejected--again. We get that. Of all the places on the www, the people here get that.

That's why I hope Mark will reconsider and stick around.
 

quicklime

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Perhaps my view of this board and all of its members was somewhat idealistic but I see that this is not so. Of course this was pure naivety on my part and I should have known better. I do not need anyone's good will but I do expect people to treat me the way I treat others which I never seem to realize is not very smart.

.


you have a rather selective memory for the guy who came in ripping Hemingway and Catch-22, as well as most lit magazines, and then went on to rag on members who got a fairly understandable impression of you from SYW and from the OP in this thread.

Everyone rants, some just man up later and others struggle mightily to keep passing the buck. Right now, it's all of us, all our fault, and none yours....you'd clearly rather play victim.

*digs out crisp new dollar to hand along
 

Polenth

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I would however, like to add, that I still find inferences about me by people who don't know me to be completely uncalled for. I, myself, live by a set of rules that dictate I do not criticize anyone I do not personally know nor do I judge people in any way. Any criticisms I have offered to anyone on this board have only been constructive with no negative implications whatsoever. I realize people who are innately creative can also be sensitive, sometimes exceptionally so. I struggle with this and when I am confronted with what I personally feel are ignorant and insensitive comments, I react as would anyone.

Perhaps my view of this board and all of its members was somewhat idealistic but I see that this is not so. Of course this was pure naivety on my part and I should have known better. I do not need anyone's good will but I do expect people to treat me the way I treat others which I never seem to realize is not very smart.

Bolding mine, as it shows you're being more than a little selective. You were judgmental and insulting to people. Constructive comments don’t include calling someone foolish and ignorant for thinking you posted to a critique forum in order to get critiques. Some people responded in turn, treating you as you treated others.

People do understand why you're being defensive. What we're trying to tell you is it's a very bad idea. If you can't get past the defensiveness, you're very unlikely to get published and you won't get anything out of the threads here.
 

anydayshirley

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You have to consider the idea that when you submit a story, you are supposed to be catering to the tastes of strangers. And most of these strangers, who are individuals with diverse backgrounds, tend to have somewhat of an educational background. Just because your writing was rejected doesn't mean your writing isn't good. And just because your writing is good doesn't mean you won't be rejected. Also, bitterness will never help. Just keep doing what you're doing.

The reason MFAs tend to see favoritism isn't just because of their degrees. Think about it---these people have gone through years of frustrating schooling in order to become better writers. While you may believe getting an MFA can't make you a better writer, remember that to do so means that you've made a commitment to writing. They're not where they are because of their degrees, most of them have degrees because that's where they were led by their talent and wish to be better writers.

Oy, it's late/early.
 

ccv707

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Only compare your writing to your own writing, otherwise your aim is to be someone else, but you should, as an individual artist, focus on speaking (or writing) your stories in your own voice, in your own way, however that is.

As others have already pointed out, calling anything in the world "good" is subjective, because that realization is based on an individual perspective. In my own opinion, "good" writing involves being honest with your storytelling and doing so with purpose.

As a writer, you should want to write a story that means something. This isn’t to say that it has to be “important” or deal with “serious” issues, because there are great works of literature that are breezy affairs that genuinely entertain us and warm our insides. A book, to mean something, must make the reader give a damn. Whether they care enough to laugh or swoon or cry or get pissed off, the story and the characters need to matter. This involves, I believe, dealing with the subject of life and death. Once again, this doesn’t mean people have to talk about life and death in the story, or anything of that nature, but here, in the real world, every action we take is tied to our life and our eventual death. Because we’re aware of our mortality, what we do here in this world matters that much more--if we were immortal, would it be as important that I spent five years working on a single book, or would it simply be another thing I did in the endless passing of time? Our memories feel so much more meaningful because we know there was a time and place we experienced them, and it’s gone now, and soon enough we’ll join it. To do this with our story, we must write it in such a way that the actions and choices the characters make feel like they matter to the themselves and the other characters around them, to make it feel just as real as this world is. That’s life and death. Not being born and growing old and withering away. It’s being here and now, and feeling the sensation of the wind on your skin, the taste of another’s lips, the smell of a flower, the sound of the ocean waves, the orange horizon as the sun sets. If we can create this with our words, then maybe we’ve done the bare minimum of creating something worth our time, worth your time, worth being created.

As well, writing a story that matters goes toward that honesty I mentioned before--honesty with the characters, honesty with their lives, honesty with the reader who’s capable of knowing when a character and story is lying to them, and if a character is lying, then the writer is lying. This honesty comes not from the goodness or nobility of any person in the story, but the truthfulness in which these fictional lives are constructed and presented. Many characters may lie, blatantly in fact, but this is always for a reason. Do they have something to gain? Do they not trust who they’re speaking with? Are they a pathological liar? A character who would lie in a given circumstance should lie. This is honesty. To make this character do what they would never actually do themselves is dishonesty--they’re lying to me, and in turn, you, the writer, are lying, and the trust you’ve built up is gone. People are internally conflicted, always struggling against their elements, each other, themselves, but they are always undeniably unique. To be honest is to allow your characters to breathe on their own while you help guide them along their path, not yours. The writer’s agenda is not always the character’s agenda, and vice-versa. We like to think of ourselves as heroic, compassionate beings, but how many of us are without flaws? Even heroes make mistakes. Big ones. Horrible ones. So too do our characters. Unless, of course, there’s a definite--and good--reason to make the character flawless. Anything else would be a lie.

Anyway, that's what I consider good. And, despite what I’ve just finished saying, I don't believe there are true rules to writing. You create out of nothing. I suppose that's good enough of an achievement.
 
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LaceWing

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Thank you, ccv. That was nice. Italo Calvino had put me in the mood, and I was ready to hear something just like this.
 

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I read this a few years ago on Elizabeth Gilbert's website and it obviously struck a chord, because I still remember it:
“I have a friend who’s an Italian filmmaker of great artistic sensibility. After years of struggling to get his films made, he sent an anguished letter to his hero, the brilliant (and perhaps half-insane) German filmmaker Werner Herzog. My friend complained about how difficult it is these days to be an independent filmmaker, how hard it is to find government arts grants, how the audiences have all been ruined by Hollywood and how the world has lost its taste…etc, etc. Herzog wrote back a personal letter to my friend that essentially ran along these lines: “Quit your complaining. It’s not the world’s fault that you wanted to be an artist. It’s not the world’s job to enjoy the films you make, and it’s certainly not the world’s obligation to pay for your dreams. Nobody wants to hear it. Steal a camera if you have to, but stop whining and get back to work.” I repeat those words back to myself whenever I start to feel resentful, entitled, competitive or unappreciated with regard to my writing…”
I don't think anyone's questioning anyone else's right to vent and feel frustrated once in a while, but there are certainly more and less productive ways to deal with those feelings...
 

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Having had all my short stories rejected by a number of 'literary' journals and periodicals, I can never seem to understand what the industry criteria is for acceptance and publication.

I say this because the stories I've read that have been accepted by the above don't impress me much at all either in terms of content or style. None that I've seen and read break new ground or have any kind of novel or interesting 'edge' yet such stories win contests, receive accolades.....Why? Is it because the authors already have a 'reputation' or respected position in society? Almost always, if I read the blurb in italics at the end of successful submissions (the little paragraphs that give some information about the authors in question), they almost always describe them as MFA's with majors or minors in Creative Writing. Does that automatically qualify them for publication?

Recently I was at the library reading a collection of short stories by Ernest Hemingway and most of them were, in a word, terrible with bland writing and mundane subject matter (fishing in a stream, hiking through the woods etc.) but were still considered literary 'classics'. Even 'Catch-22' was 'Catch Zero' for me it was so badly written. I bet if I put an excerpt up here and pretended it was something new that I wrote, AW reviewers would tear it to shreds - not knowing who actually wrote it. I'd also bet that if you strip away the blurbs about an author's 'credentials' or their MFA designations and re-submit their work somewhere else, it would surely end up right in the wastebasket (along with stories by people like me).

I think the question many in my position ask is 'Why is my writing considered crap if I don't have a 'reputation' or the letters MFA after my name? Why should these credentials even matter at all? And, when all is said and done, shouldn't the actual story be what really counts?'
Every writing contest I know of or have entered has had a rule that you can't put your name anywhere on the entry (only on the entry form) or else you have to use a fake name on the entry. This is to ensure that the name a person has does not influence the judges and that the work is judged solely on its merits.
However I certainly understand your frustrations with understanding what is considered "good" writing in the literary genre. I have a Masters in English Literature. I have only entered two literary writing contests neither of which I placed in. I have however placed as a finalist in two romance writing contest and come third in another all in the "super sexy" categories. I suspect that the reason the winners all seem to have MFAs is because those people DO know what is expected and not because the judges know they have MFAs when marking their contest entries. It's just not the done thing to look at the names of contestants when judging.
 
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