Eddie Ray Routh Found Guilty

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Cyia

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I don't think this verdict will surprise anyone.

The man maintained that he was suffering from PTSD, and PTSD =/= scumbag.
 

DadofSnorf

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I don't think this verdict will surprise anyone.

The man maintained that he was suffering from PTSD, and PTSD =/= scumbag.

I'm aware of what he maintained, and I'm aware the PTSD != scumbag. I'm in the Navy, and I know a few people with it. I've also had my bouts with it to a degree. He had issues, including with drugs and alcohol. He wasn't in a combat role, which doesn't mean he couldn't have PTSD, but even the guys I know who have been in combat and suffer from it are self-aware enough to not kill two people.
 
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Haggis

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I don't think this verdict will surprise anyone.

The man maintained that he was suffering from PTSD, and PTSD =/= scumbag.
PTSD =/= scumbag but murder does. I know too little about this case to try to make a judgement one way or another, but apparently it's been made in court. I'm sure it's not over yet.
 

DadofSnorf

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PTSD =/= scumbag but murder does.

Exactly. Very succinct.

I know too little about this case to try to make a judgement one way or another, but apparently it's been made in court. I'm sure it's not over yet.

I admit that I have a bias being in the Navy. But a murderer is a murderer. The fact is that he shot two innocent people for no reason. That's enough in my book to be a scumbag.

And you're right. It probably isn't over.
 

Haggis

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Exactly. Very succinct.



I admit that I have a bias being in the Navy. But a murderer is a murderer. The fact is that he shot two innocent people for no reason. That's enough in my book to be a scumbag.

And you're right. It probably isn't over.
Let me be a little bit clearer. A killer is not always a murderer. My inclination was to believe that PTSD played a major role in this shooting. My understanding is that Routh suffered from PTSD. The degree to which that played a part in the killing is the question. It seems as though the court has answered that with their verdict, but I'm sure there will be appeals.
 

DadofSnorf

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Let me be a little bit clearer. A killer is not always a murderer. My inclination was to believe that PTSD played a major role in this shooting. My understanding is that Routh suffered from PTSD. The degree to which that played a part in the killing is the question. It seems as though the court has answered that with their verdict, but I'm sure there will be appeals.

Oh, I agree 100% that killing and murder aren't the same. I just believe that whatever PTSD he suffered from did not play the role he claims. Just my opinion based on what I've seen.
 
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CrastersBabies

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I just think that many people question due process and jury objectivity in a state that widely considers Kyle a hero.

I'm still kind of surprised that they tried him in Texas.
 

DadofSnorf

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I just think that many people question due process and jury objectivity in a state that widely considers Kyle a hero.

I'm still kind of surprised that they tried him in Texas.

Yeah. I can see that coming up on appeal. But, the fact that he shot Kyle five times in the back and once in the head, and shot Littlefield in the hand, face, and head, then ran from the police... And, he told his family members that he was aware of what he was doing when he did it.

Kind of hard to dispute that.
 

cornflake

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Not that I like Fox, but here it is anyway:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/2...rican-sniper-killing-trial/?intcmp=latestnews

That's way better than winning an Oscar.

ETA: In case you haven't been following it, Eddie Ray Routh is the scumbag who murdered Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield.

So a scumbag was convicted of killing a really terrible scumbag. There just aren't enough shrugs in the world.

I just think that many people question due process and jury objectivity in a state that widely considers Kyle a hero.

I'm still kind of surprised that they tried him in Texas.

He was never coming close to a NGRI verdict in Texas, god knows, but it is a remarkably hard sell anyplace, and his statements made it nearly impossible in most states.
 

CrastersBabies

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Yeah, I told my husband this evening that there was no way he'd get an insanity plea through. In Texas. For killing a man who called Routh "nuts."

I had three guys sitting behind me in the theater when I saw the movie (it was extra credit for a film class, else I wouldn't have gone). They were talking before the film about being from Texas.

And throughout the film, they were clapping hard and saying things like, "Kill that M*F* sand-N***er, KYLE. KILL HIM! Goddamned ARABS. F*** them. TAKE HIM OUT."

And the scene with the kid, they cheered.

I'm sure the defense found a few jury members, but I can only imagine that some of the above-mentioned types might have also made it on the jury.
 

DadofSnorf

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I had three guys sitting behind me in the theater when I saw the movie (it was extra credit for a film class, else I wouldn't have gone). They were talking before the film about being from Texas.

And throughout the film, they were clapping hard and saying things like, "Kill that M*F* sand-N***er, KYLE. KILL HIM! Goddamned ARABS. F*** them. TAKE HIM OUT."

And the scene with the kid, they cheered.

Interesting, because I had the exact opposite experience. And I saw it with all military guys or family members.
 

Cyia

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Let me be a little bit clearer. A killer is not always a murderer. My inclination was to believe that PTSD played a major role in this shooting. My understanding is that Routh suffered from PTSD. The degree to which that played a part in the killing is the question. It seems as though the court has answered that with their verdict, but I'm sure there will be appeals.


My answer was more flip, but this is more in line with what I was thinking. PTSD does some scary, scary things. Drugs do some scary, scary things. A combination of the two is basically the formula for emotional napalm. It doesn't excuse what he did by any means, but it might explain it, and I think that's the point that a lot of people will disagree on. Depending on your stance on a particular issue, seeking an explanation can seem like trying to excuse the behavior, even when it's not.
 

rugcat

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The fact is that he shot two innocent people for no reason.
But that's the thing.

If he had gotten into a heated argument with them, or a physical altercation, or any number of other things then yes he'd be a scumbag. But the real question is why in gods name did he do it? They were friends of his. What possible reason could he have had?

The insanity defense was never going to fly, but it seems pretty clear that he was not right in the head.
 

blacbird

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The insanity defense was never going to fly, but it seems pretty clear that he was not right in the head.

Which can be said about most violent criminals. "Innocent by reason of insanity" is a particularly high legal standard which very very very seldom works as a criminal defense. A high percentage of convicted felons are, by psychiatric standards, mentally ill. But the simple fact of mental illness does not provide an excuse for violent criminal acts. Nor should it. If it did, we'd have people like David Berkowitz and Ted Kaczynski and Jared Loughner and Ted Bundy running around loose in public.

caw
 

CrastersBabies

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Yeah, mentioning talking to "the wolf" and the "man in the sky" telling him to do things. He's not right in the head.

At the very least, I hope this all sheds some light on how we treat and care about our veterans. And what the repercussions might be.
 

cornflake

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Which can be said about most violent criminals. "Innocent by reason of insanity" is a particularly high legal standard which very very very seldom works as a criminal defense. A high percentage of convicted felons are, by psychiatric standards, mentally ill. But the simple fact of mental illness does not provide an excuse for violent criminal acts. Nor should it. If it did, we'd have people like David Berkowitz and Ted Kaczynski and Jared Loughner and Ted Bundy running around loose in public.

caw

Just a couple nitpicky things for the sake of picking nits.

The insanity defense is, by it's nature, an affirmative defense. There's not innocent by reason of insanity - it's guilty by reason of insanity.

As for mental illness providing an excuse, generally no, because most states use a two-prong standard for insanity, but there have been other standards employed.

Also, getting an insanity verdict doesn't necessarily mean the person would be running around. A 'temporary insanity' defense will generally put someone out quickly, but guilty by reason of insanity does mean the person isn't going to prison, but it doesn't mean the person just goes free. John Hinckley is mostly free at the moment, but he's still not totally so and he was pretty well locked down for a couple of decades. The people you named are very different as well.

I don't generally disagree with your points, just, like I said, nitpicking because, well...
 

DadofSnorf

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My answer was more flip, but this is more in line with what I was thinking. PTSD does some scary, scary things. Drugs do some scary, scary things. A combination of the two is basically the formula for emotional napalm. It doesn't excuse what he did by any means, but it might explain it, and I think that's the point that a lot of people will disagree on. Depending on your stance on a particular issue, seeking an explanation can seem like trying to excuse the behavior, even when it's not.

Yeah, PTSD can do some scary things. It's a shitty situation for everyone, but he admitted to knowing what he was doing and knowing it was wrong. Hard to argue with that.

But that's the thing.

If he had gotten into a heated argument with them, or a physical altercation, or any number of other things then yes he'd be a scumbag. But the real question is why in gods name did he do it? They were friends of his. What possible reason could he have had?

He wasn't friends with them. He was going to see them for their program to help out veterans. He shot them because they wouldn't talk to him in the truck on the way to the range. Really? A while ago, I would have said that yes, he must be insane. But given the number of shootings recently over stupid things like girls not giving punk kids attention, I really don't know. I think the guy probably was on edge because of whatever mental issues he was dealing with, and that just made it more likely for him to snap. But he knew what he did was wrong.

I don't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry that it happened. He did a horrible thing and took away a husband and father from his family (not sure if the other guy had a family, but I'm assuming he had parents), and in turn took away his own life and put his own family through this.

Maybe I'm being flip too. But that's a scumbag in my book.

I don't, particularly; you called him a scumbag, that's why I did.

I must have misunderstood. I thought you called Kyle and Littlefield scumbags, and I wasn't sure why.

I had some other stuff here, but I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt rather than leap to conclusions.
 
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DadofSnorf

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Yeah, mentioning talking to "the wolf" and the "man in the sky" telling him to do things. He's not right in the head.

At the very least, I hope this all sheds some light on how we treat and care about our veterans. And what the repercussions might be.

I had a friend at my last command who was suicidal and suffered from PTSD, and our former chaplain told her to suck it up. A few people told me personally that they were told to "suck it up" or to "stop being a baby."

Even in the military, there is a huge range of understanding.
 

cornflake

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Yeah, PTSD can do some scary things. It's a shitty situation for everyone, but he admitted to knowing what he was doing and knowing it was wrong. Hard to argue with that.


He wasn't friends with them. He was going to see them for their program to help out veterans. He shot them because they wouldn't talk to him in the truck on the way to the range. Really? A while ago, I would have said that yes, he must be insane. But given the number of shootings recently over stupid things like girls not giving punk kids attention, I really don't know. I think the guy probably was on edge because of whatever mental issues he was dealing with, and that just made it more likely for him to snap. But he knew what he did was wrong.

I don't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry that it happened. He did a horrible thing and took away a husband and father from his family (not sure if the other guy had a family, but I'm assuming he had parents), and in turn took away his own life and put his own family through this.

Maybe I'm being flip too. But that's a scumbag in my book.

I must have misunderstood. I thought you called Kyle and Littlefield scumbags, and I wasn't sure why.

I had some other stuff here, but I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt rather than leap to conclusions.

Oh, I thought you were asking about Routh. I did indeed call Kyle a scumbag. He was a lying, loony, racist, jackhole, to put it nicely, from everything I've read and heard about and from him.

Your thing about taking a father and husband from his family - how many people did Kyle do that to (and so proudly)? Or say he did, as god only knows what he actually did, given how much he lied that we know about.

As I said originally, basically, shrug. I can't begin to get myself to care someone killed Chris Kyle. The guy did; I don't think he'd have gotten a NGRI anyplace... :Shrug:
 

rugcat

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He wasn't friends with them. He was going to see them for their program to help out veterans. He shot them because they wouldn't talk to him in the truck on the way to the range. Really? A while ago, I would have said that yes, he must be insane. But given the number of shootings recently over stupid things like girls not giving punk kids attention, I really don't know. I think the guy probably was on edge because of whatever mental issues he was dealing with, and that just made it more likely for him to snap. But he knew what he did was wrong.
I'm not saying he was not responsible for what he did. But he'd been in VA hospital several times and apparently was diagnosed as psychotic. I really don't see him as the same as some teenager who kills someone over a real or imagined slight. I think this guy had long-standing serious mental issues.
blacbird said:
Which can be said about most violent criminals.
I tend to agree with this. Aside from the famous cases like that of people like Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer there are criminals who will rob someone, then shoot them in the head just because they feel like it, and go out for pizza afterwords with a total lack of remorse or even interest. How can that be a normal person?

I think this is why some religions, like the Catholic Church, believe in the concept of evil. There's something missing about what makes people human in these people.

But I think they're different than people who are totally screwed up in the head, whether they are technically insane or not. Routh seems to me to be more mentally disturbed then vicious, calculating, or devoid of remorse.

Of course, trying to figure out exactly what was in his mind is completely irrelevant to his victims.
 

veinglory

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I never heard of any rational motive being suggested for what he did ias a legitimate alternative to the claim he was delusional. A passing fit of pique to shooting in front of witnesses?
 
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