Mentor Archetype
- Thread starter MarkQuinn
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Part of going from mentor to equal is realizing that, no matter how wise the mentor is, he is still fallible and we are all individual and different.
It doesn't lessen the mentors skills or ability, but rather his approach.
It doesn't lessen the mentors skills or ability, but rather his approach.
RikWriter
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Bah. Stole my point.
I actually like it when the MC calls the mentor out on his crap every once in a while., when called for It shows that the MC is capable of making the right decision on her own.
it'd be an interesting contrast to whatever is pushing your character to throw caution to the wind and jump into the pool head first.
No, and I'm totally in agreement with the Dumbledore comment.
Another good one is Obi-Wan, who while not wrong, intentionally misleads the reader and Luke into believing his father is dead. If Obi-Wan can be remembered fondly after that, any mentor can certainly be forgiven for giving bad advice.
Another good one is Obi-Wan, who while not wrong, intentionally misleads the reader and Luke into believing his father is dead. If Obi-Wan can be remembered fondly after that, any mentor can certainly be forgiven for giving bad advice.
I think a perfect mentor is boring. The threat of the mentor being wrong (even intentional misleading) is a lot more interesting for the reader.
Of course the mentor can be wrong. The mentor can also have ulterior motives. The mentor can double as an antagonist. Or the mentor can be a bumbling fool.
A mentor can be whatever serves the needs of the story and provides the most interest and conflict.
There is always the twist to the twist 
In the short term, the mentor's advice may cause more problems than the gung ho approach, but down the line they may prove right in giving time to think things through and allowing the character to realize that while the gung ho approach wins the battle, the caution wins the war. Probably because of a hard to see consequence to the victory.
Of course, the character goes gung ho, wins, sticks his/her tongue at the mentor and then struggles to win the war ... most likely at great cost.
In the short term, the mentor's advice may cause more problems than the gung ho approach, but down the line they may prove right in giving time to think things through and allowing the character to realize that while the gung ho approach wins the battle, the caution wins the war. Probably because of a hard to see consequence to the victory.Of course, the character goes gung ho, wins, sticks his/her tongue at the mentor and then struggles to win the war ... most likely at great cost.
I think what makes a mentor a mentor is that:
* they've trained / studied more;
* learnt to teach others and
* they have more life experience.
I can think of mentors at work at experience is their primary claim to the title because that naturally brings with it a level of knowledge. Likely they've made many mistakes and learnt from it.
But I don't think any of that makes them infallible
When dealing with anew and unfamiliar situation, they will apply their knowledge and experience in their approach to it, which may or may not be appropriate.
For example, look at the Revolutionary Wars or WW1 where it was the younger commanders with less experience but more effective ideas that got the results. Some of the best allied generals of WW1 were not career military men, but came from engineering backgrounds. (e.g. Sir John Monash).
* they've trained / studied more;
* learnt to teach others and
* they have more life experience.
I can think of mentors at work at experience is their primary claim to the title because that naturally brings with it a level of knowledge. Likely they've made many mistakes and learnt from it.
But I don't think any of that makes them infallible
When dealing with anew and unfamiliar situation, they will apply their knowledge and experience in their approach to it, which may or may not be appropriate.
For example, look at the Revolutionary Wars or WW1 where it was the younger commanders with less experience but more effective ideas that got the results. Some of the best allied generals of WW1 were not career military men, but came from engineering backgrounds. (e.g. Sir John Monash).
I think so. By which I mean I did this. My mentor is generally wise, but kind of inept around the issues my protagonist faces. The people we look up to have their own learning curves. That might include unwittingly screwing their progeny over sometimes. Absolutely okay to show that in fiction.
That sounds like the premise for an awesome story, personally. I don't see anything wrong with a mentor giving bad advice, as long as there's some payoff in some way.
It was actually part of what I was going for in my story. The character is so broken, he's kind of gone a little bit off the wall. however, it ends up being his relationship to the heroes that redeems him in the end.
I think your idea takes a pretty psychological or ethical point of reference that could be pretty damn interesting.
I think your idea takes a pretty psychological or ethical point of reference that could be pretty damn interesting.
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There's some real danger in sticking too closely to archetypes--or what we think they are. That is, to find ourselves creating characters with no more personality than an unsalted potato.
(Sequel: why doesn't the agent/editor/reader like my character?)
When you try to create an authentic character, it's best to be looking at what's plausible for that character--not his or her archetype. As in, does he have a habit of this sort of thing? Is he cautious to his own detriment? Does he....? etc., etc. Give us a mentor, not a "mentor."
Remember, archetypes were made to be subverted.
(Sequel: why doesn't the agent/editor/reader like my character?)
When you try to create an authentic character, it's best to be looking at what's plausible for that character--not his or her archetype. As in, does he have a habit of this sort of thing? Is he cautious to his own detriment? Does he....? etc., etc. Give us a mentor, not a "mentor."
Remember, archetypes were made to be subverted.
People are wrong all the time.
Ergo, if you are writing about a person, yes a mentor can be wrong. They can (and should!) have their own hangups (maybe the last time they mentored someone they didn't advise caution and it all went pear shaped) and fears and biases and agendas and strengths and weaknesses.
It's not about "what would a mentor do" it's about "what would this person do"
Ergo, if you are writing about a person, yes a mentor can be wrong. They can (and should!) have their own hangups (maybe the last time they mentored someone they didn't advise caution and it all went pear shaped) and fears and biases and agendas and strengths and weaknesses.
It's not about "what would a mentor do" it's about "what would this person do"
Dammit. I have no more examples to contribute to this thread. Totally ninja'd
Although I had a revelation the other day while I was talking to my mum about my novel. We were talking about the fact that I have to kill a character I like, and she said not to do it if it serves no purpose, like when Rowling offed Dumbledore. So I explained that she HAD to get rid of dumbledore, because the hero has to step out of the mentor's shadow before the final showdown. If Dumbledore had still been alive, the victory wouldn't have belonged solely to Harry, because Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to stand back and not help him.
There are lots of examples of the hero either losing or outgrowing the mentor before the climax. It is a watershed in the hero's journey, the moment when he knows a) he is on his own, and has to step up, and b) he doesn't NEED his mentor anymore.
Sometimes the moment the hero realises the mentor is wrong is the moment he realises he has become the person he needs to be.
Do salted potatoes have more personality? Just curious.
It happens all the time in Buddy cop films - How familiar does this sound?
Young Cop: "Let's get in there, quick!"
Old Cop: "You crazy? You don't know how many guys are in there or..."
YC: "But he'll get away"
OC: "But you'll get yourself killed!"
YC: *pauses* "...Fine. Just hand me that thing on the floor."
OC Bends down. YC bashes him on the back, incapacitating him. YC then kicks down door, shoots up warehouse/mansion/docks/mechanics and kills all the bad guy's goons, chases down the Mr Big (generally over rooftops or a junkyard), nearly catches him but confronts Mr Big's right hand man(normally some eastern european giant who you can punch in the face and he only smiles), gets his ass kicked and is saved at the last minute by OC. This has the effect of teaching the YC that action isn't always the solution, and teaching the OC that risk can bring about benefits AND removing an obstacle during the final showdown with Mr Big where YC and OC will temper their extreme personalities with a moderate aspect of their partners immpetuousness/wisdom, ensuring victory......
......So yeah - in that genre in particular, the "mentor" is often wrong and flawed himself.
Young Cop: "Let's get in there, quick!"
Old Cop: "You crazy? You don't know how many guys are in there or..."
YC: "But he'll get away"
OC: "But you'll get yourself killed!"
YC: *pauses* "...Fine. Just hand me that thing on the floor."
OC Bends down. YC bashes him on the back, incapacitating him. YC then kicks down door, shoots up warehouse/mansion/docks/mechanics and kills all the bad guy's goons, chases down the Mr Big (generally over rooftops or a junkyard), nearly catches him but confronts Mr Big's right hand man(normally some eastern european giant who you can punch in the face and he only smiles), gets his ass kicked and is saved at the last minute by OC. This has the effect of teaching the YC that action isn't always the solution, and teaching the OC that risk can bring about benefits AND removing an obstacle during the final showdown with Mr Big where YC and OC will temper their extreme personalities with a moderate aspect of their partners immpetuousness/wisdom, ensuring victory......
......So yeah - in that genre in particular, the "mentor" is often wrong and flawed himself.
Do salted potatoes have more personality? Just curious.
They're socially successful. Of course, it takes ketchup and Italian seasoning to really get a party going.
*not derailing, really, I'm not*
Eh, mentor types are boring to me, imo, unless they're someone like Gandalf, who is going through all the same things that the people he guides are.
Not only can, should. You SHOULD make the Mentor wrong. Maybe even sinisterly so. But if you do, and if the mentor is wrong, it has to mean something. You can't just go flip an archetype just BECAUSE (well you can, but it's not nearly as powerful as if you do it for a reason).
I mean, in Harry Potter we KNOW that Dumbledore is right.. somehow.. we know he will be right in the end because.. well.. that's his archetype. If Harry was to find out that he was wrong, it would have had a real impact on the story. In a lot of ways, it would have been the point of the story. Doing something like that has to fit into the theme of the character's journey and really of the truth of the whole world.
Tall order, I know
I mean, in Harry Potter we KNOW that Dumbledore is right.. somehow.. we know he will be right in the end because.. well.. that's his archetype. If Harry was to find out that he was wrong, it would have had a real impact on the story. In a lot of ways, it would have been the point of the story. Doing something like that has to fit into the theme of the character's journey and really of the truth of the whole world.
Tall order, I know
Anything goes.
Basically.
But this is really impossible to answer without reading your novel first.
Basically.
But this is really impossible to answer without reading your novel first.
Absolutely, I think the mentor can be incorrect. In fact, I feel it makes them a better mentor. At some point, all the good and the "right" advice becomes suspicious from a mentor and you begin to wonder if he's done EVERYTHING there is to do.
Having a gap in his knowledge doesn't lessen his ability as a mentor (of course it limits the things he can give advice on or, at least, good advice), all it does is just lets the reader know that he's human. Errors happen to even the most brilliant of people.
Lee in East of Eden by Steinbeck was wrong a couple of times, as well as Samuel Hamilton.
Gandalf was wrong sometimes.
Hell, even Aslan was wrong once or twice.
Perfection is impossible, even in fiction. So why not for the mentor, too?
Having a gap in his knowledge doesn't lessen his ability as a mentor (of course it limits the things he can give advice on or, at least, good advice), all it does is just lets the reader know that he's human. Errors happen to even the most brilliant of people.
Lee in East of Eden by Steinbeck was wrong a couple of times, as well as Samuel Hamilton.
Gandalf was wrong sometimes.
Hell, even Aslan was wrong once or twice.
Perfection is impossible, even in fiction. So why not for the mentor, too?
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