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Protecting Yourself and Your WIP

Rockweaver

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thanks for the feedback Jeff020 :) i may have had a slight panic reaction. while i feel that i am still a good distance from being ready to head to beta i try to plan in advance so i can be prepared.

thanks for the feedback.
s
 

cbenoi1

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> i have seen that a NDA would be an insult.

Depends on the person receiving it.

Please note that an NDA template plucked from the web is worth zilch, legally speaking. You'd need a lawyer to draft you one for your needs and lawyers ain't cheap. Better spend that money on SASE envelopes and query letters instead.

If you're still not convinced, think of it another way: What's the market value of an unpublished, unedited work and how much money are You - the author - willing to spend to have an NDA crafted by a lawyer and have it enforced with a beta reader who could be anywhere on the planet?

-cb
 

haunted

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A writer can their work copyrighted through the online www.copyright.gov website. Even if you only have 2 or three chapters you can then add to the work later with the "pre-registration" option. To be able to prove the work is yours if someone does try to steal and sell it, as a poster mentioned happened to them.
 
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Old Hack

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I believe a writer should get their work copyrighted through the online copyright.gov website-$35 for the online version. Even if you only have 2 or three chapters you can then add to the work later. Plus you can add your outline etc to show the work progress. To be able to prove the work is yours if someone does try to steal and sell it, as a poster mentioned happened to them. This is done in the music business all the time, so I don't know why authors wouldn't want to do the same. yes, as soon as you write it, it's copyrighted, but you can't prove that unless you have an actual copyright filed and can prove that by the date it was filed. I've always done it in music and still do now in writing books...

Haunted, this is really bad advice, I'm afraid.

Copyright exists in your work the moment you create it, and you don't need to register that copyright to protect your work if you keep your early drafts and working notes, however they're produced, as they will prove what's required.

Registering your copyright can cause problems if you find a trade publishing deal later, as they could assume your work has been published already if they find your previously-registered book; and it won't necessarily help you prove that you created the work: you'll still need those early drafts to show that. All the registration does is change the amounts you can win if the case goes to Court, and as you can register it at any time, you really don't need to do this as you write your book.
 

Terie

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Even if you only have 2 or three chapters you can then add to the work later.

In addition to what Old Hack said, this part is factually incorrect. If the registered work is changed in substance (which essentially means more than fixing a few typos), it must be re-registered, for which the registration fee must be paid again. You can't keep adding new chapters and rewriting material without re-registering.

As a matter of fact, here's the pertinent bit from the US Copyright Office's FAQ:

US Copyright Office FAQ said:
How much do I have to change in my own work to make a new claim of copyright?

You may make a new claim in your work if the changes are substantial and creative, something more than just editorial changes or minor changes. This would qualify as a new derivative work. For instance, simply making spelling corrections throughout a work does not warrant a new registration, but adding an additional chapter would. See Circular 14, Copyright Registration for Derivative Works, for further information.

Seriously, get to know actual copyright law before giving out advice on the subject. The fact that you're making factually incorrect statements about things that are extremely easy to check shows that you know a lot less than you think and shouldn't be advising others.
 
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haunted

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Old Hack--Hmmm, that could present a problem I guess. It hasn't been one for me yet, but who knows. In music publishing, when a publisher wants to sign a song of mine, (which are usually copyrighted in multiple groups of songs to be more cost effective) you simply sign the contract with "PAU#####, TITLE, song # 6 of 10." Which identifies the exact song being signed.

Terie-there is also (in the online version at copyright.gov) a "pre-registration" which allows you to add to ongoing works, but would also show/fix the date at which the work was first started...and the $35 fee for any online copyright is much cheaper than the mail in version as well...
 

haunted

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I thought I had credited the copyright office with the below info-but I will post the link to read about preregistration for yourself.

This is a way to copyright your work, fix it in time so you have proof when it was submitted.If you become aware of an infringement by someone of your book, (such as a beta reader) you must file for full copyright within 1 month afterwards. Seems like a great idea to me. To read all about this yourself, go to www.copyright.gov

"Preregistration is a new procedure in the Copyright Office for certain classes of works that the Register of Copyrights has determined have a history of pre-release infringement."
 
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Savant

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I don't know if it has been mentioned or asked. But would mailing a copy of your manuscript to yourself hold up in a court of law?
 

Old Hack

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That's poor man's copyright and no, it has no legal standing.
 

Old Hack

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I thought I had credited the copyright office with the below info-but I will post the link to read about preregistration for yourself.

This is a way to copyright your work, fix it in time so you have proof when it was submitted.If you become aware of an infringement by someone of your book, (such as a beta reader) you must file for full copyright within 1 month afterwards. Seems like a great idea to me. To read all about this yourself, go to www.copyright.gov

"Preregistration is a new procedure in the Copyright Office for certain classes of works that the Register of Copyrights has determined have a history of pre-release infringement."

Haunted, when you're asked by a mod to cite your sources and edit your post so that it contains no more than a sentence or two of the quoted material in order to correspond with the principles of fair use, don't cut a few lines off the post, leave it mostly intact, and think that that will do.

If you can't respect the work and copyright of others, your time here is limited. I hope that's clear.

I've edited your post for you. Don't make me have to do this again.
 

haunted

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Sorry!

I'm terribly sorry-I thought I had fixed it well enough. I totally respect copyright-I have a hundred of my own. Mea culpa
 

Brenda G. Potash

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What everyone else said.

I'm paranoid about sending my stories, but someone has to read them!

Very true, I can't just be your mom, lol. No but, yeah always protect yourself even if you trust the person, this is your baby you've worked on for god-knows how long.

But I agree, it is rare for someone's work to be stole straight out, but it can happen.
 
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lindas

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Thank you this post has been enlightening. I am at the stage where I think I need a beta reader, actually I should have had one before I started sending my manuscript to agents! Anyway thanks for the helpful hints.
 

DAv

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Regarding copyright in the UK, how do I get my work fixed in that regard?
 

Old Hack

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You don't need to.

Copyright exists in works from the instant they're created. We don't have a registration system here. It's extremely unlikely that you'll need to prove that you own the copyright but if you do, your early drafts and revisions should do it.

What ever you do, don't bother posting a copy of the work to yourself, or paying a copyright protection service to hold copies for you. There's no need, it's not effective, and it's a waste of money.
 

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As Old Hack says, DO keep drafts, especially hardcopy versions with your edit notes on them. Keep copies of correspondence regarding submissions, etc. as well.
 

Victor Clairmont

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You don't need to.

Copyright exists in works from the instant they're created. We don't have a registration system here. It's extremely unlikely that you'll need to prove that you own the copyright but if you do, your early drafts and revisions should do it.

What ever you do, don't bother posting a copy of the work to yourself, or paying a copyright protection service to hold copies for you. There's no need, it's not effective, and it's a waste of money.

I actually copyrighted my manuscript after I finished it and did three revisions on it. Problem is I would have to re-register it anyways since I've changed it up again! So yeah wasted a little money there, but I am happy to know how easy the process is for future reference if I ever need it again!

But I've kept all my drafts from start to finish. So I would not be worried even without the copyright.
 

T M Grout

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FWIW, I'm the person you all know ("Howdy!") whose work was stolen and sold by an online critique person I'd known for a couple of years.

I just want to say it does happen. Rare, yes, but not never.

Maryn, who did get legal advice, thanks
Wow! I'm really sorry to hear that :(

T
 

DAv

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Rather forgot about this thread, thanks to those who replied for the information. I'm almost ready to self-publish this novel on Kindle and was coming to the copyright page. I'm writing under an assumed name, so what sort of information would need to be on said page before finishing the project?
 

Old Hack

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Look at books published by reputable trade publishers. See what they put there.
 

TuckerMcCallahan

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BETAs and NDAs

I've read through this thread with some interest, as I'm in need of a new Beta or two and I, like Maryn, am one of those people whose work has actually been swiped and published. I've made it an obsessive habit to use NDA's with anyone who reads my complete unpublished manuscripts, and that's included a few family members. Call me Fox Mulder, but I'm one paranoid bastard. I feel like I have to be; it was a good friend who abused my good graces and published work I wrote without so much as a thank you much less a credit.

I'm not sure why anyone would find a NDA insulting. We're all - supposedly - working, professional writers. We sign contracts to publish our work all the time. I happen to also be an editor, so I sign editing agreements and contracts as well. NDA's are just one more necessary contract in our business, documents that protect our intellectual properties prior to publication. Because let's be honest. A copyright is good, but that's an author's claim that the work is their own. A Non-disclosure agreement is somebody signing their name and saying, okay, I promise I won't steal your work or share it with anybody until it's available for purchase. There's definite benefits to having both in hand should trouble arise.

This is of course just my opinion, and it's based on my personal experience, which wasn't good. But as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, how much is your unpublished work worth? I don't know about you, but my unpublished works are priceless to me. They represent hours, days, weeks, & years of research, writing, revision, and editing. They are my dreams for the future. So they're certainly worth the $50 it cost me to have an attorney draw up a transferable NDA.

Just my two cents. Plus the attorney's fees.

~ Tux
 

heza

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I've read through this thread with some interest, as I'm in need of a new Beta or two and I, like Maryn, am one of those people whose work has actually been swiped and published. I've made it an obsessive habit to use NDA's with anyone who reads my complete unpublished manuscripts, and that's included a few family members. Call me Fox Mulder, but I'm one paranoid bastard. I feel like I have to be; it was a good friend who abused my good graces and published work I wrote without so much as a thank you much less a credit.

Did you send a C&D to the friend who published your work? Did you file a lawsuit? You have a copyright on your work as soon as you put it in tangible form, and your draft history, review email history, basically any other documentation you have that you wrote it and sent it to someone for review will prove you are the copyright holder. So you can follow up on someone violating your copyright, but you have to follow up. You have to follow up if someone violates an NDA, as well. An NDA is worthless if you don't enforce it. And, frankly, I think "friends" who are willing to violate my copyright to begin with are probably willing to violate my NDA.

Personally, I find NDAs offensive and troublesome. Basically, I sign NDAs in the course of my employment because that's part of the cost of doing business. I sign NDAs that allow me to do the work I get paid to do. And that's key—I'm getting paid. If someone wants to pay me to review a manuscript—i.e., if it's a business arrangement—I'm not offended by signing an NDA. If someone wants me to do them a favor and take on the cumbersome task of reviewing a full novel, then I don't also want to read and sign a bunch of legal agreements. I already know not to violate someone else's copyright, and that legal protection is inherent to the process.
 

TuckerMcCallahan

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Did you send a C&D to the friend who published your work? Did you file a lawsuit? You have a copyright on your work as soon as you put it in tangible form, and your draft history, review email history, basically any other documentation you have that you wrote it and sent it to someone for review will prove you are the copyright holder. So you can follow up on someone violating your copyright, but you have to follow up. You have to follow up if someone violates an NDA, as well. An NDA is worthless if you don't enforce it. And, frankly, I think "friends" who are willing to violate my copyright to begin with are probably willing to violate my NDA.

I did consult with my attorney, who was kind enough to go through my mound of correspondence, email, notes, and drafts without billing me for the time it took, since I was freaking furious at the time and not thinking clearly.

This is something you all need to consider in terms of copyright law. If somebody takes your work and slaps it down inside their work, then registers the U.S. copyright, you have a battle proving that you wrote those pieces. The court has to determine what percentage of the work belongs to which author. And generally that's not handled in court but in arbitration. Long story short? It would've cost me far more money than I ever would've recouped in either damages or royalties to sue and end up in arbitration. I chalked it up to a learning experience and invested in a good NDA. Which, if I'd had and my "friend" had violated would've been far easier to take to court. An NDA is a contract and breach of contract is recognized in every court in the world.

Bottom line? Copyright law is messy, complicated, & expensive. Contract law is commonplace.

I do totally understand where you're coming from as far as working and not wanting to sign a contract for something you don't consider a job. But I've been a working editor for 20-odd years. Generally, anybody I work with in a Beta arrangement ends up getting basic edits, because I do it automatically as I read. It's habit. Am I paying my Beta? No. But they're getting a very valuable service in trade, one that's worth signing an NDA, particularly when I have no problem signing one for them if they want.

I may be a jerk, but I'm a *fair* jerk. :D

~ Tux