Said Is Dead?!

"They'd do well to read Faulkner's tips on writing," he hummed furtively.

"Or any decent book on writing," he chuckled hospitably.

"Said is dead" is some of the worst advice you could give to a beginning writer.

It's true that in poorly-written dialog "said" can appear intrusive. That's because you don't need to attribute every line. For example:


...is pretty dreadful, but not because of "said."


...isn't an improvement.

What would be an improvement would be dropping the tags altogether. Presumably the reader knows that the two characters in the scene are Randy and Jennifer.

Try this:

On one hand, these kids are getting misled towards the popular misconception that the best way to write a story is to eat a thesaurus and then vomit it all up.

On the other hand, the Darwinian in me rejoices. I grew up with English teachers giving me said-book-isms, and then when I got to be a mature specimen, I read some other books, and figured out that said-book-isms don't make good writing. If I can do it, other smart people should be able to -- and the stupid people's manuscripts will just drift below mine in the slush pile.

Bad habits melt away when one reads and writes regularly.

Probably the reason for these lists is that the average kid doesn't read very much and has a tiny vocabulary. At that level, said-book-isms are arguably an improvement.

James D. Macdonald said:

"Said is dead" is some of the worst advice you could give to a beginning writer.

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Sadly, that was the very advice I got when I was first starting out. I did figure out pretty quickly that replacing "said" with the so-called "more interesting" alternatives wasn't an improvement, though.

I have been doing a lot of research online and in books as to how to improve my writing and self-edit myself. I came here three weeks ago thinking my manuscript was almost perfect, however I quickly realized it needs work.

At first I got angry at the contradictions I found online - some sites instructed me that a good way to avoid "telling" was to use better verbs that 'said' in dialogue as well as modifying those verbs with -ly adverbs.
So at first I tried doing that to several pages.

But then I bought some books that I found suggested here throughout various threads and I was told the complete opposite. Two books have said to eliminate adverbs and to rarely change the said - but instead rewrite the dialogue like the example jim mentioned above. So now i am working on editing my manuscript this way.

I understand I received misleading information at first but it is just annoying that the resources that new authors find through google aren't necessarily correct, especially when you are left to your own devices to teach yourself the proper way to do things.

cuteshoes said:

some sites instructed me that a good way to avoid "telling" was to use better verbs that 'said' in dialogue as well as modifying those verbs with -ly adverbs.

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That's just evil.

cuteshoes said:

I understand I received misleading information at first but it is just annoying that the resources that new authors find through google aren't necessarily correct, especially when you are left to your own devices to teach yourself the proper way to do things.

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It's very annoying and frustrating, and it takes time to sort out the misinformation from the good bits.

I think this is one of those areas where you have to seriously consider the source. English teachers might advise you to eliminate "said," but how many of those English teachers are published novelists?

"Said" tends to be an invisible word. I use it 771 times in the novel I'm working on. As readers, we don't even notice it, except in extreme examples like Uncle Jim's up above.

This is totally unrelated but ...

jst5150 said:

This is totally unrelated but ...

B: It's not a motorcycle baby. It's a chopper.
F: Who's chopper is this?
B: It's Said's chopper.
F: Who's Said?
B: Said, dead, baby. Said's dead.
​

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Who's on first base?

Well, less competition for me.

A few things that (some) teachers are hurting the youngsters:

1. use big words -- it shows what great writers you are with such nice vocabulary; always replace a simple word by using a thesaurus
2. said is dead
3. adverbs are your friend
4. only write complete sentences, the longer and more complex, the better
5. do not use contraction
...

No offense to school teachers everywhere, but it's better to read books written by professional writers, and take advice from people who have actually published novels.

Does that mean we'll be seeing more Tom Swifties?

"Get away from that dynamite!" said Tom explosively.

Oh, the horror!

~Nancy

We should make a distinction in what level of writer we're talking about here. It is important from a pedagogical point of view to encourage younger kids (grades K-3) to explore broader word choices in all areas. It's only when students reach high school that the finer points of what we'd consider good writing can be effectively introduced. I just finished working on an elementary writing program for Grade 2-6 and that's pretty much the current philosophy.

"Said is dead" is fine for early primary schoolers. Beyond that, it does become a negative.

JerseyGirl1962 said:

Does that mean we'll be seeing more Tom Swifties?

"Get away from that dynamite!" said Tom explosively.

Oh, the horror!

~Nancy

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"Get away from my Dick!" said Tom, cockily.

pconsidine said:

"Said is dead" is fine for early primary schoolers. Beyond that, it does become a negative.

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I were a teacher, I would say "said is good" but try to broaden your vocabulary in narratives. Description is a good place to start.

Unfortunately, a lot of books geared towards kids use all kinds of fancy dialog tags, so that's what they're seeing as an example. There are a ton of popular books which use endless pages of: declared, announced, scolded, complained, shouted, laughed, giggled, snorted, yelled, cried, retorted, replied, questioned, demanded, stated, and my all time favorite (found in a Nancy Drew book), admonished.

BTW, I leafed through several of my harry potter books and she uses many creative dialogue tags and -ly adverbs to modify "said" when it is used.

maestrowork said:

I were a teacher, I would say "said is good" but try to broaden your vocabulary in narratives. Description is a good place to start.

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True. Nothing should ever be that black and white.

But I still say there's a reason books geared toward a certain level of reader use what we could consider overly descriptive language. I don't know the details, but it would make sense to me if there were a particular developmental stage where that sort of language is much more engaging to children than the more sterile adult type. After all, I dont think kids have the means to perceive things like subtext as well as an adult.

I'm probably going to be the odd one out here. I could also be wrong in this, but it is how I write.

I use said, and adverbs and colorful version of said, but I don't use them every single line. I use them as often as I would use said. Just often enough to remind the reader or let them know who is speaking. The only time I use them every single line is if there are a group of people talking and the dialog is switching between all of them.

I used to overuse adverbs, until someone pointed it out. I still use them more than other writers would like me to use, but I have a hard time limiting them completely. Suddenly was a frequently used word, sometimes used in two adjoining sentences. But my sister saved me from that one.

I don't fully understand the show vs tell and I don't know how to translate it into my writing. I have seen examples of it, but I am the kind of person that needs to see it hand picked from my own writing for the lightbulb to kick on.

I don't fully understand active and passive voice, in past tense, or how to employ it. I have read several things but again, I need examples plucked from my own writing to illustrate the difference and how to fix it, and identify it.
I have read many books, I am sure others here have read more. I write, taking examples from the books I have read and creating my own voice, which differs from book to book. A few of my beta readers have been astonished by the changing voices from book to book, I don't do it on purpose, it just kind of happens.

I feel the biggest thing isn't right and wrong and dos and don'ts but more what you can make work. The more skilled you are, the more you can get by with certain things.

For example, Tom Clancy, I was reading the Cardinal of the Kremlin the other day. On every single character even if they only have one paragraph dedicated to that person's role, he tells the entire life story of that character and why they were there, and why they were doing what they were doing. I don't particularly care for that style, but he gets away with it. I can follow as his consciousness goes off on every little tangent that enters his mind. I find it rather distracting.

Someone pointed out the other day, I can't remember the romance writer, but it was concerning head hopping. I have seen other writers do this as well. It is considered a big no-no but writers still do it, and most readers don't even notice.

I think I have lost my train of thought, but my original thoughts were, I never read how-to or recieved advice of how to write before I actually started, most of what I learned, I have learned by example. It may not be the right way, or the good way, but its my way.

jst5150 said:

This is totally unrelated but ...

B: It's not a motorcycle baby. It's a chopper.

F: Who's chopper is this?
B: It's Said's chopper.
F: Who's Said?
B: Said, dead, baby. Said's dead.

​

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Nicely played...

Flapdoodle said:

"Get away from my Dick!" said Tom, cockily.

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"Yes, it's very draining to me," Dick ejaculated.

pconsidine said:

After all, I dont think kids have the means to perceive things like subtext as well as an adult.

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Now that I can understand. That's why someone like JK Rowling writes with adverbs and dialogue tags because kids don't necessarily understand subtext or if the characters say it "angrily" or "sarcastically" or "sadly." However, I still think that it's better to teach kids the right thing than to teach them the wrong thing and hope they'll unlearn it and get it right in high school.

However, I still think that it's better to teach kids the right thing than to teach them the wrong thing and hope they'll unlearn it and get it right in high school.

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For what it's worth - I never learned about passive voice or show vs tell in any of my high school english classes and I was in honors english. But then again we never studied creative writing, much to my dismay.

We learned how to write for term papers, not for ourselves.

Said

cuteshoes said:

BTW, I leafed through several of my harry potter books and she uses many creative dialogue tags and -ly adverbs to modify "said" when it is used.

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I guess I'm another odd one out in a way. I always use "said," or no attribution at all, for adults, but for kids, I'm not sure "said" was ever alive. Kids generally do not have the sophistication and reading skills adults have, and I think Rowling is dead on in using creative dialogue tags, ly adverbs, etc., when writing for children.

Kids love them, appreciate them, and seem to have a much better understanding of the story when such words are used. Kids also use such words when telling a story, and their eyes seem to light up a bit brighter when someone like Rowling writes the way she does.

Writing for children is not the same as writing for adults, and I believe this is one of the differences. I'm for almost anything that encourages kids to enjoy reading and writing.