Non-MFA Debuts?

Status
Not open for further replies.

HNaro

Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
34
Reaction score
2
Location
New York
It seems like every book I've read that's been published in the last 20 years is by someone with an MFA. If they don't have the MFA, a little digging finds they have some connection (i.e. having Joyce Carol Oates as an undergrad mentor, or working in publishing to begin with). This requisite does not affect my reading experience. But as somebody going through the query process, I'm looking for success stories of other authors who have made it sans MFA. Can anybody point me towards some examples?
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
It seems like every book I've read that's been published in the last 20 years is by someone with an MFA. If they don't have the MFA, a little digging finds they have some connection (i.e. having Joyce Carol Oates as an undergrad mentor, or working in publishing to begin with). This requisite does not affect my reading experience. But as somebody going through the query process, I'm looking for success stories of other authors who have made it sans MFA. Can anybody point me towards some examples?

I don't know what you've been reading, but I'd wager they're more rare than not. Also, this matters not. A good book, good query and hard work will get most people further than an MFA pretty much any time, imo. You asked for examples, however, so here you are. I got the info from everyone's Wiki pages, save the very well-known, so I can't actually vouch for the info but hey.

I don't believe JK Rowling has an MFA. I'm really, really sure S. Meyer does not.

I just went and pulled the NYT bestsellers of the past decade. I know John Grisham doesn't have an MFA, and wasn't connected to anyone, same for Dan Brown. Stephen King did not, Nelson Demille did not. Neil Gaiman started as a journalist, but didn't have any high class book connections I can see.

Patricia Cornwell has a BA in English, that's as far as she went. Jhumpa Lahiri has an MFA, an MA in Comparative Lit. and a Ph.D in Renaissance Studies.

Neither Stieg Larsson nor Jonathan Franzen got MFAs. Gillian Flynn has a Master's degree in journalism. Maeve Binchy has a bachelor's in history.

Obviously, btw, I'm skipping a lot of people, both for obviousness' sake (Glenn Beck, etc.) and because a lot of people are in the same sort of genre, and there's just a long list of names, most of whom I'd wager don't have an MFA but don't feel like looking, heh. The list I'm looking at, though there are several of the same thing available, is here, btw.

If I look at Salon's list of the best books of the last decade, Michael Chabon does have an MFA, Colson Whitehead does not, nor does Franzen, above. Jonathan Lethem does not. Susanna Clarke does not but worked editing cookbooks for S&S? Kelly Link and Kazuo Ishiguro do. Mary Gaitskill does not. Susan Choi does, Zadie Smith does not, nor does Dave Eggers, kind of obviously. I'm bored of wikiing people now, heh.

If we just take Salon's list, and count Clarke, that's five of 11 (top 10 fiction plus Eggers) with an MFA or a job in publishing or such. If we look at the Times, the percentage with drops way, way, way down.
 
Last edited:

HNaro

Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
34
Reaction score
2
Location
New York
Thank you for that search, Cornflake. I should've clarified within my post that I was referring to lit-fiction. I didn't realize Zadie Smith did not have an MFA. I also came across this today on Huffington Post featuring upcoming debuts. There's only six fiction featured, but two of them are non-MFA/apparent outsiders.

I hear you when you say it's a moot point and I also generally buy into the notion that the cream rises to the top. But I wanted to be made aware of examples. We're pretty aware of the state of the diminishing publishing industry, hence the increased risks imposed by taking on new authors. The information you provided has been affirming.
 

girlyswot

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
389
Location
Cambridge
Website
myromancereviews.wordpress.com
Zadie Smith is British. It would be much rarer for a British novelist to have a Masters degree, mostly I think because it's much rarer for any profession to require a Masters in the UK (MBA is maybe a relatively recent exception to that). And if they do, it won't be an MFA, but more likely an MA, maybe in Creative Writing.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
Thank you for that search, Cornflake. I should've clarified within my post that I was referring to lit-fiction. I didn't realize Zadie Smith did not have an MFA. I also came across this today on Huffington Post featuring upcoming debuts. There's only six fiction featured, but two of them are non-MFA/apparent outsiders.

I hear you when you say it's a moot point and I also generally buy into the notion that the cream rises to the top. But I wanted to be made aware of examples. We're pretty aware of the state of the diminishing publishing industry, hence the increased risks imposed by taking on new authors. The information you provided has been affirming.

We who? What increased risks of taking on new authors? Dude, this all kind of smacks of listening to a certain, deeply uninformed segment of the Internets.

Agents don't give a rat's ass if you have an MFA - for some, it's a distinct turn-off to mention such a thing in a query.
 

HNaro

Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
34
Reaction score
2
Location
New York
Thank you for the information, girlyswot! Do you know if the MA in CW has become more of a trend in the last decade or so?

Cornflake:
The risk of investing resources in an unproven commodity increases when markets contract. This is true of any industry.

I’ll reiterate that I was looking for examples to affirm a point that I think we both agreed on, which is that an MFA does not make or break a deal with an agent.

You’re second statement is interesting though. You are reaching by saying it’s a turn-off to mention one has an MFA (unless by “some” you mean “an extreme minority”). Agents might be turned off if one uses their degree as a selling point in place of a great book. Can you provide any examples to support your statement?
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
Go ask the agents. I don't think I'm reaching. I'm sure some don't or wouldn't care if someone mentioned they had an MFA, some may be impressed, and some will be turned off.
 

girlyswot

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
389
Location
Cambridge
Website
myromancereviews.wordpress.com
Thank you for the information, girlyswot! Do you know if the MA in CW has become more of a trend in the last decade or so?

No idea. There's at least one very prestigious course that's been around much longer than that. But in general I just don't think we have the same culture of Masters degrees being an entry point for careers, with a few specialist exceptions.
 

girlyswot

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
389
Location
Cambridge
Website
myromancereviews.wordpress.com
Thank you for the information, girlyswot! Do you know if the MA in CW has become more of a trend in the last decade or so?

No idea. There's at least one very prestigious course that's been around much longer than that. But in general I just don't think we have the same culture of Masters degrees being an entry point for careers, with a few specialist exceptions. This is partly because our undergraduate degrees are usually much more specialised than their US equivalents.
 

Eliza azilE

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
80
Reaction score
10
Go ask the agents. I don't think I'm reaching. I'm sure some don't or wouldn't care if someone mentioned they had an MFA, some may be impressed, and some will be turned off.

MFA Grad: "Hello. I just spent two years intensely studying my craft. I'd like to show you this piece I--"

Agent: "Take it outside, smarty pants."
 

djunamod

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
179
Reaction score
5
Location
West Texas
One thing that I read a while back is that some publishers/agents are wary of MFAs because they tend to produce cookie-cutter fiction of a certain type (aka, of the New Yorker variety) rather than encourage unique voices to emerge. Now, I'm perfectly willing to believe that that view is outdated.

I did one year in a PhD in Creative Writing program at a distinctly unknown program and I recall that the class on novel writing that I took had only 3 of us who were actual CW majors. The rest of the people were majoring in other things and were enrolled mainly for fun. Most of them were into genre fiction (mostly fantasy and sci-fi) and their writing reflected a very different style than what the 3 of us were doing.

Now, I totally had no problem with this, even though I'm not a reader of genre fiction. But one of my classmates had a real issue with it. He insisted that they didn't belong in a graduate-level writing class because they were writing in what he considered a lower quality (his opinion, remember - not mine) and that the university had only allowed them in because they needed the money.

I totally didn't agree with this. I ended up leaving the program (mainly because I had already been 2 years tied to my MA program and I felt like I needed to get out and work and find my own way in writing. I don't regret that decision, but I'm sure that many people have benefitted from MFA and CW programs.

Djuna
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Agents and editors don't care if you have an MA in creative writing, copywriting, joined up writing, or anything else.

They don't care if you know someone in publishing, or if you've never even been inside a bookshop.

All they care about is whether you've written a saleable book or not.

Plenty of debut novelists, in all genres, have MAs. Plenty do not. If you want to take an MA, take one. If you don't, don't. But don't expect it to make you more publishable, or more talented.
 

CrastersBabies

Burninator!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
5,641
Reaction score
666
Location
USA
One thing that I read a while back is that some publishers/agents are wary of MFAs because they tend to produce cookie-cutter fiction of a certain type (aka, of the New Yorker variety) rather than encourage unique voices to emerge. Now, I'm perfectly willing to believe that that view is outdated.

I did one year in a PhD in Creative Writing program at a distinctly unknown program and I recall that the class on novel writing that I took had only 3 of us who were actual CW majors. The rest of the people were majoring in other things and were enrolled mainly for fun. Most of them were into genre fiction (mostly fantasy and sci-fi) and their writing reflected a very different style than what the 3 of us were doing.

Now, I totally had no problem with this, even though I'm not a reader of genre fiction. But one of my classmates had a real issue with it. He insisted that they didn't belong in a graduate-level writing class because they were writing in what he considered a lower quality (his opinion, remember - not mine) and that the university had only allowed them in because they needed the money.

I totally didn't agree with this. I ended up leaving the program (mainly because I had already been 2 years tied to my MA program and I felt like I needed to get out and work and find my own way in writing. I don't regret that decision, but I'm sure that many people have benefitted from MFA and CW programs.

Djuna

They either cultivate genre snobbery in higher education, or, they attract it. During my MFA, half the group went all-in on genre hatred. While I never turned genre in myself (I write epic fantasy now), others did: horror, suspense, science-fiction, speculative fiction. And it was light. Super light. It wasn't the in-your-face type of genre.

And it was well written.

During one session, half the class talked ABOUT the genre for 20 minutes of the writer's workshop time. Not anything constructive, but, "Well, this is genre, right?" kind of responses.

During another session, the teacher (followed by three of her lackeys) all but said, "I just don't know what to do with this. I just don't know. What is this? I can't critique this."

I have my theories...
1. Most faculty don't know how to teach plot and how to address it. I was told, "Don't worry about that, focus on characterization and internalization."
2. Most faculty feel inadequate and ignorant about genre conventions. It's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, imho. "Oh no, science fiction. I can't do this." When in truth, you critique it like you would any other story.
3. Reputation. If they got a reputation that they were genre-friendly, they would be looked down upon by their colleagues. Academia has massive amounts of bullshit politics within departments.

When I taught creative writing, I had a few creative writing snobs in my classes that would complain about people writing genre. I always gave them the same response: "If you can't figure out how to critique something that you THINK is lesser, then you're in the wrong major." One student complained about me to the dean, said that he didn't become a creative writing major to read "fairy and zombie stories." The dean asked me about it. I gave a solid argument as to why I allow genre in my classroom (most students weren't creative writing majors and took the class "for fun." Imagine that? Creative writing for fun.) And that good writing was good writing. It transcended genre and should transcend genre. She listened to me for 5 minutes and said, "Okay, if you have any other issues with this guy, let me know. Everything sounds in order."

People who really do have an issue like the ones you mentioned (from your classmates), are either really young still (20s) or have emotional/mental maturity problems. And thinking back, the people in my MFA program who had issues were the young 20-somethings who hadn't developed their own method of critical thinking. They need someone who is in a mentor position to tell them what to think. One exception was a woman in her early 30s who was trying desperately to fit in with the younger group and who was a parrot for everything the instructor said/thought.

I have never met someone who is mature, thoughtful, and confident in their writing do the, "Oooo, stinky genre" (I-smelled-a-fart-expression).

People need to stop worrying about what everyone else is writing and focus on themselves. If they refuse to help another classmate because they don't "get it," or "want to," then yay for them for playing the "take my ball and go home" game.

On the other spectrum are people who think literary fiction is lame and have to gripe (constantly) about it. It's really the other side of the same coin. Grow up and move on. Don't read it if you don't like it, but don't make it some crusade to take a metaphorical dump all over the other--and in the process insulting millions of fans/readers. Accept that we all have different tastes and aesthetics. It's not that hard. Trust me.
 
Last edited:

gettingby

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
2,748
Reaction score
170
One thing that I read a while back is that some publishers/agents are wary of MFAs because they tend to produce cookie-cutter fiction of a certain type (aka, of the New Yorker variety) rather than encourage unique voices to emerge. Now, I'm perfectly willing to believe that that view is outdated.
Djuna

Since when are New Yorker stories cookie cutter?
 

gingerwoman

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
228
Agents and editors don't care if you have an MA in creative writing, copywriting, joined up writing, or anything else.
.
Yes it's very unfortunate that they don't, since I have a Masters Degree in English Literature, it would be nice if it was good for something.
 
Last edited:

gingerwoman

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
228
1. Most faculty don't know how to teach plot and how to address it. I was told, "Don't worry about that, focus on characterization and internalization."
.
Funny because I see agents saying all the time "we will look at literary fiction if it has a strong plot."

" One student complained about me to the dean, said that he didn't become a creative writing major to read "fairy and zombie stories." The dean asked me about it. I gave a solid argument as to why I allow genre in my classroom (most students weren't creative writing majors and took the class "for fun." Imagine that? Creative writing for fun.)
.
That didn't need to be the answer because the well written zombie and fairy stories might have a serious chance of ...you know.... earning money.

3. Reputation. If they got a reputation that they were genre-friendly, they would be looked down upon by their colleagues. Academia has massive amounts of bullshit politics within departments.
.
I'm guessing this is the number one reason. My parents were both university professors. (not in writing or English though.)


On the other spectrum are people who think literary fiction is lame and have to gripe (constantly) about it. It's really the other side of the same coin. Grow up and move on. Don't read it if you don't like it, but don't make it some crusade to take a metaphorical dump all over the other--and in the process insulting millions of fans/readers. Accept that we all have different tastes and aesthetics. It's not that hard. Trust me.
.

Interesting how Donald Maass says books that last a really long time on the NYT best seller lists often have the qualities of both strong literary and strong genre fiction to them in one.
 
Last edited:

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,478
Reaction score
268
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
... Donald Maass says books that last a really long time on the NYT best seller lists often have the qualities of both strong literary and strong genre fiction to them in one.

I've been reading widely for some six decades. It seems to me that in that time literary and genre fiction have grown closer, cross-pollinating each other. It's a rare literary fiction writer who hasn't borrowed genre techniques and content. And a rare genre writer who hasn't at least subliminally been affected by techniques and content of lit fic.

To be specific. Perhaps at one time literary fiction was mostly character centered, and genre fiction mostly plot heavy. But is that true today? Or is that distinction a stereotype that was never true?
 

DennisB

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
397
Reaction score
22
Location
Frankfort, Indiana
I've often wondered why agents require a resume at all. One of the best sellers of all time, The True Believer, was written by a longshoreman and former migrant worker, Eric Hoffer.
If you've got a good read, what does it matter what your background is?
 

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
1,963
Reaction score
242
Location
New York
Website
www.barbararogan.com
I've been reading widely for some six decades. It seems to me that in that time literary and genre fiction have grown closer, cross-pollinating each other. It's a rare literary fiction writer who hasn't borrowed genre techniques and content. And a rare genre writer who hasn't at least subliminally been affected by techniques and content of lit fic.

To be specific. Perhaps at one time literary fiction was mostly character centered, and genre fiction mostly plot heavy. But is that true today? Or is that distinction a stereotype that was never true?

I doubt it was ever true. Some of the best writers of the day worked in genres: Raymond Chandler, Dashiell Hammett, James Cain, to name just a few.

I just blogged about this topic, if anyone's interested. My conclusion is that there is no dichotomy between genre and literary writers, which is not to say that all writers are the same. Rather there is a continuum that is determined not by genre but by the quality of the writing.
 

alexaherself

Wordsmith and shoechick
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
5,874
Reaction score
418
If you've got a good read, what does it matter what your background is?

There can be things in your background that are legitimately relevant to both agents' and publishers' willingness to take you on, as a writer.

An agent, in particular, is typically taking on a person as a client, not just a manuscript. That's why things like previous writing experience are relevant, together with anything else from your background which shows (for example) proven abilities to take on large-scale projects, complete them on time, and so on.

I'm not suggesting that an MFA (or MA in writing) specifically is necessarily going to be seen as an asset by the average agent - and from what I've seen agents saying I wouldn't think it will be at all - but one only has to look at how agents are advising writers to approach them to see that there are many instances where aspects of the writer's background can be highly relevant.
 

djunamod

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
179
Reaction score
5
Location
West Texas
Since when are New Yorker stories cookie cutter?

Sorry, wrong analogy :D. I meant fiction that is "navel gazing", more about language and character without a plot or a story. That's not the New Yorker, you're right about that.

Djuna
 

cmi0616

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
1,802
Reaction score
141
Location
In the aeroplane over the sea
I'd agree that it seems to be increasingly the case that a lot of literary fiction is being produced by people with MFAs.

Off the top of my head, contemporary writers that don't have an MFA? Zadie Smith, Jonathan Franzen, Gary Shtyengart, and Meg Wolitzer.

However, if being "connected" to a university disqualifies them, than I think most writers today wouldn't fit. A lot of writers become professors for the stable income such work provides. Also, if one is interested in becoming a creative writing professor, it would seem these days that an MFA is almost mandatory, barring a hugely successful debut.
 

whiporee

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
563
Reaction score
77
Location
8700 foot above sea level, 1500 miles from the oce
Website
www.abeachday.com
I don't think it's MFAs. I think it's Iowa.

If you get in at Iowa, chances are you'll get an agent. Iowa makes it easier to get your short stories published, which helps your chances at an editor looking at your collection of short stories which were all approved by the other Iowans and are therefore considered "good." So I do think there is a lot of nepotism/networking going on with participants in the IWW.

But I don't think an MFA from other schools matters much. Maybe a couple others, but the biggie is Iowa.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.