M/M and sex

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thethinker42

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I picked up this piece of advice somewhere in my readings about M/M versus F/F. Don't know if it helps or is accurate, but here you go:

Men, on average, are the ones most attracted to F/F and men don't read as much as women do. So, you'll see more F/F in visual pornography than between the covers of a book.

Women, on the other hand, are most attracted to M/M and since women are far more likely to enjoy their pornography in a book, that's why it is there and not so much on the tv screen.

There you have it. If I can remember from where I gleaned this "knowledge" I'll post the link, too.

I've talked to a number of readers who -- like me -- enjoy M/M romances because it doesn't have the inherent misogyny that sometimes shows up in hetero romances. (i.e., where the man is always the powerful one, the woman is a doormat, etc) With two men, the playing field is level, and any power/inequality issues stem from something OTHER than gender.

Basically, as a reader told me not long ago, "I want to read a LOVE STORY, not a story that tries to tell me that love is a woman who's too stupid to live and the abusive asshole she somehow managed to tame."

It's not all about pornography. There's a reason it's M/M *romance*. And believe me, I've had MANY reviews from people either complaining about too much sex or praising the fact that there's more story than sex in a book. Readers -- male or female -- want a story. Especially in the last couple of years, there's been a lot of demand for more story and less sex. So, I think whittling it down to porn preferences oversimplifies it and ignores the fact that people read romance for...you know...romance.
 

thethinker42

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It's very charming, and the perfect antidote to lots of M/M 'insta-lust' exotic romance I've read.

What's wrong with insta-lust? People DO get hot for each other quickly. Sexual tension is awesome, don't get me wrong, but I don't see what the problem is with insta-lust. Insta-LOVE, yes. Insta-lust? That's about as realistic as it gets, IMHO.
 

brainstorm77

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Gerri Hill writes f/f and has a good reputation as an author

I personally have not read her books, but I know others who have. I've heard nothing but good things.
 
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amergina

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I read and write everything: M/M, M/F, F/F, various menage and gender combos...I'm open to any romantic grouping, as long as it appears authentic.

I'm reading an urban fantasy ARC right now, from a mainstream publisher's digital imprint, featuring a M/M sweet romance. In the midst of action, horror, humor, great settings and brilliant side characters, the two leads only kiss. The serial tension can't even start until the younger man realizes he's not asexual, but demisexual to his partner. It's very charming, and the perfect antidote to lots of M/M 'insta-lust' exotic romance I've read.

There's nothing wrong with insta-lust romances. Nothing at all. (I write them, FWIW.)

It might not be your preference, but I don't see why one type of book needs to be an "anti-dote" for another.

People would get cranky if I called literature the anti-dote for genre fiction. (or vice versa)
 

thethinker42

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There's nothing wrong with insta-lust romances. Nothing at all. (I write them, FWIW.)

It might not be your preference, but I don't see why one type of book needs to be an "anti-dote" for another.

People would get cranky if I called literature the anti-dote for genre fiction. (or vice versa)

Exactly. M/M is not superior to F/F, sweet is not superior to erotic, literary is not superior to genre, etc. Implying that one makes a good palate cleanser for the other is kind of... insulting.
 

brainstorm77

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There's nothing wrong with insta-lust romances. Nothing at all. (I write them, FWIW.)

It might not be your preference, but I don't see why one type of book needs to be an "anti-dote" for another.

People would get cranky if I called literature the anti-dote for genre fiction. (or vice versa)

I totally agree. I have a whole series dedicated to it. :)
 

thethinker42

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Now if we could just get the retailers to not default to putting M/M into the "Erotica" category even if it has nothing saucier than a snog in it. :mad:

OMG. This. 1,000 times, this.

And some publishers too. I was LIVID when one of my books was labeled by the publisher as "gay erotic fiction." As in, labeled right there on the spine of the book.

Uh. No. It was TRANSGENDER SCIFI. With TWO sex scenes.
 

Filigree

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Hey, my debut was built on M/M insta-lust and destiny. Nothing wrong with it at all. It's simply a trope like any other, which can be written well or poorly.

My point - linking back to the search for M/M sweet romance - is that a lot of readers (and publishers) are looking for that, too. They're looking for more story woven into the sex. (I'm getting this from multiple publisher webcasts, comments from editors and agents, writer anecdotes, and reader input.)

As the genre 'grows up' and reaches more mainstream publishers and readers, less-explicit romances can be seen as somehow more palatable in public. I don't have a problem with heat levels. I actually came to M/M erotic romance because I was tired of fade-to-black scenes in the SF&F genre. But I can understand moving in the other direction.
 

thethinker42

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Moving in different directions and expanding are fine.

"Anti-dote" implies something significantly more negative than "it's nice to vary things a bit."
 

Filigree

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True, and I'll admit it was a poor choice of word. Mea culpa. I certainly didn't mean to insult any of the superb writers I know. (In order to follow RYFW, I won't name the authors and publishers who did prompt my initial observation.)

I'm another reader hoping that publishers and platforms *stop* slamming all M/M stories into the erotic section of their catalog.
 

Latina Bunny

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ARe has heat ratings on their books that might be useful - you could go for the ones with fewer flames. http://www.allromanceebooks.com/

I don't always agree with them, to be honest, but it's a start at least.

Ah, that's worth a look. Thank you. :)

This thread is very reassuring. It's good to know that there is an audience for sweeter/lower heat levels. :D

Hey, a couple of m/m publishers have also added some heat levels: ManLove Romance and Riptide Publishing now have categories for the heat levels. :) I thought I saw Dreamspinner putting an "Erotic Romance" label on those stories that are more on the steamy side. I think?

Just to add, I have nothing against higher heat levels. Heck, some of my fav authors and stories happened to be erotic romances. Some of of them are even inst-lust/insta-love! (I actually don't mind insta-love/insta-lust. I actually like that trope, if it's well-written.) This is because I had bought several m/m from back when m/m was still new and growing--and many of them happened to be erotic.

I still enjoy them, but my preference is for sweeter stuff, especially since I have come from a background of sweeter slash fanfiction and (sweeter) YA LGBT stories. It's a simple preference thing, like enjoying certain tropes, for example.

I just want more variety in my romances that I can enjoy. It's why I enjoyed M/M /slash romances: They give me a different experience than what most M/F romances provides. (For similar reasons that writers like Lauren/L.A. Witt gave earlier.)
 
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brainstorm77

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OMG. This. 1,000 times, this.

And some publishers too. I was LIVID when one of my books was labeled by the publisher as "gay erotic fiction." As in, labeled right there on the spine of the book.

Uh. No. It was TRANSGENDER SCIFI. With TWO sex scenes.

I know for a fact that Amazon has transgender categories. I've purchased a couple of books there including biographies, and a couple of fiction books.

Publishers need to be aware that there is a difference.
 

KimJo

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I have a story with MLR that was part of their "Anti-Valentine" theme call earlier this year. There's no sex whatsoever in it. Barely even a kiss.

I think with the "insta-lust" thing... Overlooking the word "antidote" for the moment, there are some M/M (and some other pairings, for that matter) books in which the authors seem to use insta-lust as a shortcut for getting the characters together. Instead of it reading as authentic, genuine sexual attraction, it reads as the author sitting there saying "Okay, these two have to end up in a relationship and I have limited word count... ooh, I know, they can have sex and go from there!"

Insta-lust unquestionably exists, and it can lead to a long-term romantic relationship. Just ask the man I met at a barbecue six years ago, who took me to a hotel that night...and is now my husband. But as Filigree said, with *any* trope there are good and poor ways to write it, and unfortunately, insta-lust too often falls into the poorly written category.
 

brainstorm77

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True, and I'll admit it was a poor choice of word. Mea culpa. I certainly didn't mean to insult any of the superb writers I know. (In order to follow RYFW, I won't name the authors and publishers who did prompt my initial observation.)

I'm another reader hoping that publishers and platforms *stop* slamming all M/M stories into the erotic section of their catalog.

I am a reader of m/m as well as a writer. I got to say that common sense helps my book buying a lot too. If I want a m/m that's sex free or relatively less erotic, I'm not going to buy from certain publishers who are very open about the high levels of sensuality/erotica they offer.

There are also blurbs to go buy and heat ratings. I'd like to think there is room for everything under the spectrum.
 

brainstorm77

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I have a story with MLR that was part of their "Anti-Valentine" theme call earlier this year. There's no sex whatsoever in it. Barely even a kiss.

I think with the "insta-lust" thing... Overlooking the word "antidote" for the moment, there are some M/M (and some other pairings, for that matter) books in which the authors seem to use insta-lust as a shortcut for getting the characters together. Instead of it reading as authentic, genuine sexual attraction, it reads as the author sitting there saying "Okay, these two have to end up in a relationship and I have limited word count... ooh, I know, they can have sex and go from there!"

Insta-lust unquestionably exists, and it can lead to a long-term romantic relationship. Just ask the man I met at a barbecue six years ago, who took me to a hotel that night...and is now my husband. But as Filigree said, with *any* trope there are good and poor ways to write it, and unfortunately, insta-lust too often falls into the poorly written category.

But that's the thing. Nobody can dictate what or how well another person writes. That isn't going to change. That's when readers step in and exercise their buying power. There are tons of shitty books out there that have rave reviews in the m/m community that I think suck. But others think it's the best book ever. There are authors who are getting huge sales, I read their books and wonder if I am missing something? Yet, they must have something that gets them the sales & reviews.

I'm a little biased because I am a fan of insta-lust. I like reading about the initial strong sexual attraction that two people sometimes have when they first meet.
 
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firedrake

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I like insta-lust, especially if there's no way the two characters can satisfy that lust right away. UST is so much fun to read and write.

I write m/m and the only sex scenes I write are those that advance the plot. I'm pretty sure that most of my fellow m/m authors are the same. The sex only goes in where it's needed. Having said that, I have found that the more books I write, the less inclined I feel to write naughty bits. I'm more interested in writing compelling characters, and I have a tremendous amount of fun writing male characters.
 

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Having said that, I have found that the more books I write, the less inclined I feel to write naughty bits. I'm more interested in writing compelling characters, and I have a tremendous amount of fun writing male characters.

I've noticed that shift myself! I never really LIKED writing sex scenes, so I'm not sure why I did it - whether I thought the story demanded them or just that I was trying to please the audience - but I've definitely cut back on them as I've gone along.

I do get the "don't read this if you're looking for a lot of sex in your story" comments, but... whatever. I may never LIKE a comment that starts with "don't read this," but I can't deny that it's pretty accurate advice!
 

brainstorm77

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You'll never please everyone no matter what you write.
 

thethinker42

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I know for a fact that Amazon has transgender categories. I've purchased a couple of books there including biographies, and a couple of fiction books.

Publishers need to be aware that there is a difference.

They do. I still don't know why my publisher did that.
 

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I was reading the submission guidelines for one publisher today and noticed something weird:

A level four heat level was described as stories with a high amount of erotic content, a strong focus on sexual tension, and/or "homoerotic" themes. I re-read it and, yep, apparently a story with same-sex sex scenes is automatically a level four heat level. Bizarre. What about m/m and f/f stories without sex, or with very little?

Wish I could remember who it was. I felt like maybe it was Siren, but I just checked and it's not.
 
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brainstorm77

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I write for Siren and their guidelines are very specific. They know exactly what their readership wants and expects. I love working with them.
 

Viridian

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Ah, I don't mean the guidelines said "stories with homoerotic sex scenes should be at least heat level four", I mean the guidelines categorized stories with homoerotic content as being heat level four automatically.

Still have not found what publisher it was. Oh well.
 

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Several publishers used to like same-sex alongside various kinks as an 'extra spicy' sex category. I think most have since seen the inherent inequality and weirdness of that and quietly phased it out.
 

Filigree

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I hope so. I can't recall which pub it was, but someone I researched two years ago had what appeared to be automatic assignment to 'high heat' or 'kinky' for any M/M book - even when the blurbs and reviews indicated a more mild story.

That's one reason why I'm glad that some of the Big Five's digital imprints are stepping up to include all levels of M/M romance plots in their offerings. I feel like my lighter stuff has more options now than 1) query an established erotic romance house which prefers really explicit stories or 2) self-pub on Amazon and risk my story being canned for unknown reasons.
 

brainstorm77

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I'm glad none of my publishers label m/m like that.
 
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