Arizona Botches Latest Execution

screenscope said:

Capital punishment is state sanctioned premeditated murder. Amazing it's still allowed.

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I see this argument a lot. It's not "murder" which is a legal term for an illegal killing. Given that every step of the process is done in accordance with state laws, it's not murder.

The argument is akin to "It makes no sense to punish people for killing, by killing." As if it's some form of hypocrisy. Well, it really isn't.

We punish kidnappers by forcibly seizing them and putting them in prison.
We punish thieves by fining them.

That said, I'm with Katie. Let's do away with the DP. I'll let Gov Perry know...

At least you're in a position to have an influential opinion on that at some point. I'm just a lowly old professor with no standing in anything haha.

Honestly, though, I'm guessing that after the California ruling, we might be seeing more cases of courts ruling against the death penalty, which I think would be a step in the right direction.

rugcat said:

If it were my family or a loved one who had been murdered, I wouldn't have any problem with the person responsible dying slowly. Hell, I would much care if they were tortured to death.

But the state has the responsibility to carry out executions efficiently and as humanely as possible.

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Yes on all points.

MarkEsq said:

Me too, mostly. My wife is adamantly against the death penalty, which raises an interesting issue. If she were murdered, I'd kind of feel obliged to ask the state to NOT execute her killer.



Do you mean moral or legal responsibility? Morally, maybe, but I believe that legally it's only required to make sure it's not cruel and unusual, which I don't think is the same thing as making sure executions are carried out "efficiently and as humanely as possible."

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Well, given how rare it actually is these days. I'm pretty sure the death penalty by itself counts as unusual.

It's too bad the companies that make the drugs for lethal injection are kept secret to avoid protests. I'd really like to know the cost of the process. I'd be willing to bet the difference between lethal injection and firing squad is easily several thousand dollars.

I was also going to say that I doubt the cost would be that different between holding somone on death row and holding them for life in prison, but then I found this about the costs of the death penalty.

mccardey said:

If you're going to kill people, I think a bullet is perfectly fine.

Also, cheap.

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I guess hanging would be the best, you can reuse the rope and if done right it snaps the neck. No pain or mess.

I think it's the "if done right" that causes a lot of problems. Hanging can be awful if something goes wrong. Theoretically even a firing squad could be awful if a person isn't hit in the right spot on the first try.

It doesn't matter if you dress it up in the robes of justice, murder is murder...

kaitie said:

I think it's the "if done right" that causes a lot of problems. Hanging can be awful if something goes wrong. Theoretically even a firing squad could be awful if a person isn't hit in the right spot on the first try.

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This, for that matter, why not just hire some guy already serving LWPOP to come in and snap the accused's neck?

And this is also why I suggested a shotgun, as opposed to a firing squad with rifles at twenty feet. Shotgun, close-range, with whichever round assures the most complete demolition of the brain. Messy, yes, but quick, and probably more reliable. Could probably even be mechanized somehow so a human doesn't have to pull the trigger.

I too go back and forth on the death penalty. But, I also see something inherently wrong with a family thinking, "Wow, this guy is dying slowly before my eyes. He's in a LOT of pain. He's suffering tremendously. Wow, am I satisfied."

I mean, I can't even imagine that. It's beyond my understanding. Isn't that the mentality of certain serial killers? To receive satisfaction from watching others in pain? Tortured? Killed?

There's something missing in my head that connects that with "justice."

Maybe I'm broken. Who the heck knows.

CrastersBabies said:

...I mean, I can't even imagine that. It's beyond my understanding. Isn't that the mentality of certain serial killers? To receive satisfaction from watching others in pain? Tortured? Killed ?

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Maybe not so much 'satisfaction', but more of a primitive revenge sort of emotion?

Bizarre to even imagine, to say the least.

MarkEsq said:

I see this argument a lot. It's not "murder" which is a legal term for an illegal killing. Given that every step of the process is done in accordance with state laws, it's not murder.

The argument is akin to "It makes no sense to punish people for killing, by killing." As if it's some form of hypocrisy. Well, it really isn't.

We punish kidnappers by forcibly seizing them and putting them in prison.
We punish thieves by fining them.

That said, I'm with Katie. Let's do away with the DP. I'll let Gov Perry know...

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It is hypocrisy to say, don't kill or we'll kill you. Thieves used to be punished by losing a hand. By your argument, we should go back to that solution. A state law does not mean execution is not murder, it just hides an unpalatable truth behind a handy excuse.

mccardey said:

Yes, but if they're inhumane can't we use other things?

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As MarkEsq says, the Bill of Rights (amendments to the US Constitution) wording is "cruel and unusual." When a judge rules a method of execution "cruel and unusual" then it won't be used. I suppose a judge could rule it "inhumane" but I don't know if that has a specific legal meaning.

People in the US have been saying the death penalty is inhumane, cruel and unusual, and they've been protesting at executions for many decades, but there still doesn't seem to be the political will to get rid of it in the remaining states that have it, nor at the Federal level.

ShaunHorton said:

Exactly. I'm willing to bet most prisons pay a hefty sum for those cocktails, and not just anyone is allowed to come in, stick a needle in the perp's arm either. Those medical professionals probably charge a good amount for doing such an ill-viewed task.

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That's part of the problem here, they have a hard time finding qualified medical personnel willing to do the task. I recall one of these executions was botched by someone who didn't quite get the needle in right.

MarkEsq said:

...
That said, I'm with Katie. Let's do away with the DP. I'll let Gov Perry know...

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Not holding my breath on Texas. Maybe California, as it's costing a fortune and it doesn't seem likely they'll do any more executions anyway.

ShaunHorton said:

Well, given how rare it actually is these days. I'm pretty sure the death penalty by itself counts as unusual.

It's too bad the companies that make the drugs for lethal injection are kept secret to avoid protests. I'd really like to know the cost of the process. I'd be willing to bet the difference between lethal injection and firing squad is easily several thousand dollars.

I was also going to say that I doubt the cost would be that different between holding somone on death row and holding them for life in prison, but then I found this about the costs of the death penalty.

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I saw that link and posted it in another recent thread (or was it this one?). The California figures are shockingly high, especially considering CA hasn't executed anyone in years.

Err....wow. I just looked into my own state's deal with capital punishment and found it thoroughly disheartening. We currently have 9 people on death row, and in 2006, the state bar association did a study on the costs and compensation of trials which include the death penalty.

In short, the state bar association found that lawyers were being under-compensated by the state for their work on such cases.

In other words, lawyers want the death penalty to stay in place in order to milk the state for fees and payments.

God, I would light the world on fire if I could...

benbradley said:

As MarkEsq says, the Bill of Rights (amendments to the US Constitution) wording is "cruel and unusual."

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Perhaps that was a preemptive bar against creativity, as in basting a guy with honey and leaving him next to an anthill.

McCain takes a break from being wrong about everything:

“I believe in the death penalty for certain crimes. But that is not an acceptable way of carrying it out. And people who were responsible should be held responsible,” he said in an interview. “The lethal injection needs to be an indeed lethal injection and not the bollocks-upped situation that just prevailed. That’s torture.”

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Here's an interesting (!) opinion:
Judge argues for return of firing squad executions

In an interview with The Associated Press on Thursday, Chief Judge Alex Kozinski of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said lethal injection was a "dishonest" attempt to disguise the brutal nature of capital punishment.

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http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Judge-argues-for-return-of-firing-squad-executions-5644645.php

Perks said:

Perhaps that was a preemptive bar against creativity, as in basting a guy with honey and leaving him next to an anthill.

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Or against bringing back old 'traditional' methods. 'Hanging, drawing and quartering' was one from Shakespeare's day.

In any case, if there's going to be the death penalty, why the complicated drug cocktails? Admittedly, all I know about drugs is what I see/hear/read in the media, but isn't a massive injection of heroin pretty fatal without treatment?
(Massive being a variable, apparently, depending on whether the person being injected has built up a tolerance.)
If the state uses heroin confiscated from drug dealers, the costs should be reasonable. And if it is as lethal as I've heard it described, (addict dies with the needle still in his arm, etc) then you wouldn't need trained professionals to do it perfectly.

*I'm against the death penalty purely because mistakes can be made. Better that a man should be unjustly convicted and kept imprisoned for 20 years than that he be executed. It's impossible to return to him the wasted years, but at least he has the years to come.
But in theory, if someone has deliberately killed people, under certain circumstances, I have no problem with killing them.

The drug they use now is a widely used general anesthetic, if they can't get that right they won't get any better using a non-anesthetic drug

ShaunHorton said:

Err....wow. I just looked into my own state's deal with capital punishment and found it thoroughly disheartening. We currently have 9 people on death row, and in 2006, the state bar association did a study on the costs and compensation of trials which include the death penalty.

In short, the state bar association found that lawyers were being under-compensated by the state for their work on such cases.

In other words, lawyers want the death penalty to stay in place in order to milk the state for fees and payments.

God, I would light the world on fire if I could...

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Whoa, how do you get to that conclusion? They are undercompensated - they're often public defenders (and prosecutors, obvs.), who are undercompensated as a matter of course.

I don't really know how they'd be milking the state for fees because of the death penalty. They're overworked like hell, all of them, without capital cases. It's hardly like they're sitting around, pining for work to charge for.

clintl said:

If we're going to do this, maybe we should turn the process over to veterinarians. They seem to have this procedure down pretty well.

Actually, the most promising method for a humane way is to use a nitrogen chamber. From what I've read, the person doesn't even realize anything is amiss - he or she just goes to sleep from the lack of oxygen and soon after dies.

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Any doctor can give an anesthetic overdose, the profession just considers it unethical. Veterinarians would likely take the same position in relation to humans--if practicing on humans were not already illegal for them

CrastersBabies said:

I too go back and forth on the death penalty. But, I also see something inherently wrong with a family thinking, "Wow, this guy is dying slowly before my eyes. He's in a LOT of pain. He's suffering tremendously. Wow, am I satisfied."

I mean, I can't even imagine that. It's beyond my understanding. Isn't that the mentality of certain serial killers? To receive satisfaction from watching others in pain? Tortured? Killed?

There's something missing in my head that connects that with "justice."

Maybe I'm broken. Who the heck knows.

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They're distinctly... something.

I'm not going to criticize people in their position for wanting the guy dead, or not caring about what happened to him. I don't think the state should be executing people regardless, but that's not to do with their personal feelings.

However, the whole 'he wasn't suffering - he was sleeping peacefully, smiling and snoring a little!' is just downright fucking bizarre.

cornflake said:

Whoa, how do you get to that conclusion? They are undercompensated - they're often public defenders (and prosecutors, obvs.), who are undercompensated as a matter of course.

I don't really know how they'd be milking the state for fees because of the death penalty. They're overworked like hell, all of them, without capital cases. It's hardly like they're sitting around, pining for work to charge for.

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Maybe it just threw me because when I read the report I was expecting them to suggest the state stop using capital punishment.

Or it could be that in a report about how much capital punishment proceedings already cost the state above the normal criminal case, they would end with a statement akin to "This is not enough."

ShaunHorton said:

Maybe it just threw me because when I read the report I was expecting them to suggest the state stop using capital punishment.

Or it could be that in a report about how much capital punishment proceedings already cost the state above the normal criminal case, they would end with a statement akin to "This is not enough."

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The bar assn. isn't taking that position.

It costs that much because of the numerous appeals, getting a death-qualified jury, hiring experts, etc., not because the lawyers are paid more. The lawyers, often on top of their already insane caseloads, work a ridiculous amount on capital cases.

The lawyers in the Alabama case that started this thread spent the last hour or so of his life frantically writing briefs, faxing them all over creation, and were on the phone arguing with a state supreme or appellate justice (I forget who seemed to consider) or whatever, when the guy died. It's likely they'd spent the previous months doing the same thing, just less frantically and with fewer results.

That's why there are people who do pro bono with the SPLC and other groups, to take these cases, to assist in these cases.

ShaunHorton said:

Exactly. I'm willing to bet most prisons pay a hefty sum for those cocktails, and not just anyone is allowed to come in, stick a needle in the perp's arm either. Those medical professionals probably charge a good amount for doing such an ill-viewed task.

Meanwhile, bullets are cheap, and anyone that truly deserves such a punishment will likely have a line for people to get in for the chance to shoot them.

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In my opinion, if the country is going to kill people, the job of executioner should be filled by conscription. Any individual old enough to vote might get a letter that reads, "On Friday, April 13th of this year you will be at this prison no later than 9PM in order to kill this person at midnight."

If volunteers are used it just allows people who don't have the guts to kill someone, but want to, the opportunity to do so. I'm in favour of the government helping people to achieve their life goals but in this case I'll make an exception.

cornflake said:

However, the whole 'he wasn't suffering - he was sleeping peacefully, smiling and snoring a little!' is just downright fucking bizarre.

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I don't find it that way at all.

Like most murderers and accomplices to murder they're trying to avoid taking a careful look at their behaviour and matching that behaviour with their beliefs. "Thou shalt not kill," is a big part of modern ethics so participating in and taking pleasure in someone's death is going to make people rationalize.

A lot.