Those ideas sound like a lot of fun! It can't hurt to go back and look at it, as you might find some ideas that are worth saving.
Superhero YA?
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Those ideas sound like a lot of fun! It can't hurt to go back and look at it, as you might find some ideas that are worth saving.
With the success of The Avengers (bigger box office than Harry Potter!) I think that Superhero YA is a potentially highly successful genre. If you can make it appeal to a male and female audience, bonus points.
I think now's a great time to query an agent who mentions loving Avengers (assuming your novel is polished and ready)
No. You're countering your own argument here. How can you claim that comic book fans aren't receptive to new characters and then turn around and admit that Runaways got a relaunch because of the groundswell of word of mouth on the TPB? Yes, I'm aware that Marvel cancelled the book initially because of sales....anything new takes time to find its footing, and Marvel and DC are notorious for axing any book below a certain sales threshold. But the fact that it came back due to fan support completely invalidates your whole premise. And yes, I absolutely can blame the writers for its failing as a series after Vaughn left. Sure, Whedon's a fantastic writer and hugely popular....but his six issue run was plagued by delays. It took almost two years to release six issues. By the time his run ended, the book had lost most of its steady readers and never gained them back through Immomen's and Moore's equally unsteady (and short) time on the title. When you have a relatively new product, you can't afford frequent and unpredicted delays, and that again, has nothing to do with the characters.
Yes, a lot of these books have been cancelled. But they've all COME BACK. That's my point. The publishers control what they publish, fans have nothing to do with that....except through word of mouth, requests, fan support. At the end of the day, these major publishers are only concerned with their bottom line. They push what sells, and what's marketable, and what they think can succeed. If they cancel something, its because they think its not working. If they bring it back, its because they've been given reason to believe it CAN work, in the proper setting. My point has never been about sales, or cancellations, or what publishers do. It has always been....fans like these characters. Fans are not hostile to them just because they're new.
Anyway, as Sage said earlier, its kinda a moot point. Superheroes does NOT equal comic books. The fact that comic books have pretty much held a monopoly on them for decades isn't due to something inherent in the genre. The proof is out there. Look at the Avengers monster box office success this weekend alone. A highly successful comicbook is one that moves a couple hundred thousand copies in a month. Even at the peak of comic book popularity in the nineties, the bestselling issue X-Men Vol. 2 #1 sold about a million copies. This weekend, Avengers opened with over 200 million dollars in ticket sales. That's literally MILLIONS of people who have never picked up a comic book in their life, who saw the movie, loved the movie, told their friends and will probably buy the DVD or go see it again. Mainstream audiences like superheroes. There is absolutely a readership for non comic book superheroes.....many people have no interest in comic books because they don't like the format, they think they're for kids, because all the continuity and backstory is confusing, because they don't know where to start. Etc, etc.
And I'm sorry, but I or these other people tried it and it didn't work will never ever be an argument for why an entire subgenre of books are a hard sell. Publishing is an industry of infinite variables. There could be any number of reasons prior superhero projects didn't take off. None of them have any bearing on new or further attempts.
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I actually agree with most of what you've written, but I did want to clarify one thing: from the responses I got editors are being cautious because they don't believe superhero novels can sell. In fact, that was pretty much the resounding theme of my submissions. Granted, mine isn't YA and that might fare better, but I guess the problem right now is that the superhero books that are out aren't selling particularly well, which is making it harder for others who are trying.
I'm sure I don't have the whole picture here, but from what I've heard from my agent and the feedback we received, editors don't think people buy books about superheroes. I'm sure considering the number of people writing them right now, someone somewhere is going to change that, but it's not likely to be an easy sell, and I do imagine it's going to take an editor being willing to take a risk and then that risk selling tons of copies to change this.
Personally, I think they're full of it and my book would of course have been a runaway bestseller, but I don't get to make that call.
I think the problem with using the Avengers as a reason why Superhero books might sell is that the Avengers was successful primarily because it was very very very visual. Pretty people, awesome fight scenes, great, charismatic actors, fast paced rapid fire dialogue that moves across the screen and heroes that have been established for years in comic books (it took about two-three years to establish them for movie goers). Reading a book about super heroes is just not the same experience as watching a well-executed 200 million dollar movie about superheroes. So people loving these movies doesn't necessarily mean that it'll translate into a desire to read superhero YA fiction...
If someone were to use the Avengers hype to their advantage, then ideally they should have been subbed years ago for release this summer...who knows how people will feel about it in two years (though I'm sure there'll be sequels).
All in all I do think it's more complicated. But I can say that I've never really been super interested in reading superhero books...again, for me it works more as a visual genre.
If someone were to use the Avengers hype to their advantage, then ideally they should have been subbed years ago for release this summer...who knows how people will feel about it in two years (though I'm sure there'll be sequels).
All in all I do think it's more complicated. But I can say that I've never really been super interested in reading superhero books...again, for me it works more as a visual genre.
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The bit about timing is what occurred to me as well. Even if the Avengers does great right now, who knows if they'll be popular in two years when a book would come out?
I do admit, writing a cool superhero story without the visual element is difficult. I focused more on characters and not really cool fight scenes. The plotting and story has to be done differently to accommodate the form, and that's not always easy.
I do admit, writing a cool superhero story without the visual element is difficult. I focused more on characters and not really cool fight scenes. The plotting and story has to be done differently to accommodate the form, and that's not always easy.
I should clarify....my stance in this thread has always been that I don't buy that superhero novels are a hard sell because readers are resistant to it. Editors/publishers thinking their risky is another story entirely, but I do believe that's a case of seeing some superhero novels underperform and extrapolating from there that the issue is the subgenre, rather than the specific books just not finding their readership. I strongly believe there's a lot of YA readers who'd be more than receptive to a strong, original, well executed superhero novel....we just haven't found the right breakout novel yet.
And Roly, that's an interesting point about superheroes belonging to a more visual medium. I'm not sure I totally agree though, because MDSchafer did have a good point.....there is a TON of popular YA about superpowered teens. Superpowered teens are essentially a YA trope in and of themselves, and there's not much difference from them and traditional superheroes as far as themes, visuals, etc go. Plenty of YA (and prose novels in general) have gone on to be action packed, extremely visual movies. It seems to be the idea of superHEROES, with the gimmicks and the codenames and the costumes that editors shy away from specifically....and again, that seems to be centered around the idea that superheroes 'belong' to the movie and comic book mediums. That they can't work in another medium. But something worth noting is that the current trend of superhero movies didn't really start until the X-Men movie in 2000. Before that there were a bare handful of superhero movies....the Superman and Batman movies essentially, that performed to varying degrees of success, but were considered outliers, exceptions to the rule. Before 2000, it was generally understood that for the most part superheroes 'belonged' to the comic book medium, that they didn't really work well on the big screen. Superman and Batman were the exception because of their tremendous popularity....every kid knew who they were, whether they read comics or not.....but fifteen years ago, not a single person would ever believe that characters like Iron Man, Thor and Captain America could be box office draws in their own right.
They were wrong about movies, it just took the right successes to demonstrate that. I say its the same with novels.
And Roly, that's an interesting point about superheroes belonging to a more visual medium. I'm not sure I totally agree though, because MDSchafer did have a good point.....there is a TON of popular YA about superpowered teens. Superpowered teens are essentially a YA trope in and of themselves, and there's not much difference from them and traditional superheroes as far as themes, visuals, etc go. Plenty of YA (and prose novels in general) have gone on to be action packed, extremely visual movies. It seems to be the idea of superHEROES, with the gimmicks and the codenames and the costumes that editors shy away from specifically....and again, that seems to be centered around the idea that superheroes 'belong' to the movie and comic book mediums. That they can't work in another medium. But something worth noting is that the current trend of superhero movies didn't really start until the X-Men movie in 2000. Before that there were a bare handful of superhero movies....the Superman and Batman movies essentially, that performed to varying degrees of success, but were considered outliers, exceptions to the rule. Before 2000, it was generally understood that for the most part superheroes 'belonged' to the comic book medium, that they didn't really work well on the big screen. Superman and Batman were the exception because of their tremendous popularity....every kid knew who they were, whether they read comics or not.....but fifteen years ago, not a single person would ever believe that characters like Iron Man, Thor and Captain America could be box office draws in their own right.
They were wrong about movies, it just took the right successes to demonstrate that. I say its the same with novels.
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I'm a huge fan of comic book superhereos (DC, though, not Marvel) and I haven't seen The Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, The Avengers, Captain America, or any of the various material popping up around it.
I think it's fair to say that the moving going audience isn't the same as the comic book audience, which isn't the same as the YA book reading audience. One is comprised of a variety of people, one is mostly male, and the other is mostly female. There's some overlap, sure, but I doubt that superheroes will translate to novels because they're mostly visual and very serial. You can't write a full length novel a month with consistent quality the way you can write/draw a comic book. It's different qualities that attract different audiences.
I mean, if you compare the new DC line of comics to any popular Dystopian YA with powers, you're not going to find many similarities in the content.
1) Superhero comics, with the exception of Static and Spiderman (well, not always) and Young Justice and The Teen Titans and (maybe) X-Men, focus on adults, with adult problems. Even YJ and TT have frequent adult crossovers, and most of the time, they don't really behave like teens. They infrequently focus on problems that older teens would have, and the characters do age past adolescence.
2) There's almost always a romance in any popular YA book. Superhero comics do have romance, but not to the extent of pop YA. Yes, Kid Devil/Slade's Daughter and Superboy/Wonder Girl were an interesting sidetrack to YJ/TT, but they weren't as important as the main plot.
3) Again, the timeline in which comics are published. Once per month, sometimes, bi-weekly.
4) A lot of comics go darker than pop YA, depending on the writer. Novels don't have the freedom that comics do with getting a different writer/artist each week. And, frankly, that's part of what make superhero comics interesting for me. I like reading early Frank Miller, laughing at his latter attempts, reading Grant Morrison's Superman, and comparing Jim Lee's art to the late Mike Turner's.
That being said, it could work, but if you're trying to go traditional superhero in novel form, it's going to very difficult. Teen superheroes have a lot to work around, and most will probably end up with something like that god-awful Sky High bullshit. I've tried writing teen superhereos various times, but it just seems cheesy giving them names and costumes in text. I've always reverted it back to science-fantasy.
ETA: thinking about it, you do have MJ/Peter, Superman/Lois, Batman/various girls, but that depends on the issue, universe, etc. The thing I like about sh comics is the variety, the alterna-universes, and the retcon availablity. The publishing industry doesn't really have the freedom to just end a book series the way DC/Marvel can cancel a book if it isn't making money. Nor can they cross over characters as easily. For me, comics aren't really about the individual characters, so much as the universe they all exist in. And, because publishers probably aren't willing to give writers that much freedom, I don't see superhero novels gaining that much success. You've got DCU, but you don't see S&SU.
I think it's fair to say that the moving going audience isn't the same as the comic book audience, which isn't the same as the YA book reading audience. One is comprised of a variety of people, one is mostly male, and the other is mostly female. There's some overlap, sure, but I doubt that superheroes will translate to novels because they're mostly visual and very serial. You can't write a full length novel a month with consistent quality the way you can write/draw a comic book. It's different qualities that attract different audiences.
I mean, if you compare the new DC line of comics to any popular Dystopian YA with powers, you're not going to find many similarities in the content.
1) Superhero comics, with the exception of Static and Spiderman (well, not always) and Young Justice and The Teen Titans and (maybe) X-Men, focus on adults, with adult problems. Even YJ and TT have frequent adult crossovers, and most of the time, they don't really behave like teens. They infrequently focus on problems that older teens would have, and the characters do age past adolescence.
2) There's almost always a romance in any popular YA book. Superhero comics do have romance, but not to the extent of pop YA. Yes, Kid Devil/Slade's Daughter and Superboy/Wonder Girl were an interesting sidetrack to YJ/TT, but they weren't as important as the main plot.
3) Again, the timeline in which comics are published. Once per month, sometimes, bi-weekly.
4) A lot of comics go darker than pop YA, depending on the writer. Novels don't have the freedom that comics do with getting a different writer/artist each week. And, frankly, that's part of what make superhero comics interesting for me. I like reading early Frank Miller, laughing at his latter attempts, reading Grant Morrison's Superman, and comparing Jim Lee's art to the late Mike Turner's.
That being said, it could work, but if you're trying to go traditional superhero in novel form, it's going to very difficult. Teen superheroes have a lot to work around, and most will probably end up with something like that god-awful Sky High bullshit. I've tried writing teen superhereos various times, but it just seems cheesy giving them names and costumes in text. I've always reverted it back to science-fantasy.
ETA: thinking about it, you do have MJ/Peter, Superman/Lois, Batman/various girls, but that depends on the issue, universe, etc. The thing I like about sh comics is the variety, the alterna-universes, and the retcon availablity. The publishing industry doesn't really have the freedom to just end a book series the way DC/Marvel can cancel a book if it isn't making money. Nor can they cross over characters as easily. For me, comics aren't really about the individual characters, so much as the universe they all exist in. And, because publishers probably aren't willing to give writers that much freedom, I don't see superhero novels gaining that much success. You've got DCU, but you don't see S&SU.
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Comic books come out once a month. But movies don't, and there are already several successful superhero movies (from comic books, even) out there. It shows that a superhero's adventure does not have to be told in a once-a-month format to appeal to an audience. Why would a novel not have the same freedom to tell a single story about a superhero?
As mentioned in tbf's post, the comic-book-reading audience is not going to be the same as most YA novels' audience, but that doesn't mean that YA readers wouldn't want to read superhero novels. They just wouldn't want to read it in comic book form.
However, I think I've said upthread--or at least in about twenty billion recent threads we've had on trends--that superheroes are not an easy sell. Many agents who would take on a superhero book already have a client writing one. That means that they don't think they can't sell them at all. It just means that they don't think the market's going to open up to superheroes in such a way that it'd be worth having more than one client writing about them.
As mentioned in tbf's post, the comic-book-reading audience is not going to be the same as most YA novels' audience, but that doesn't mean that YA readers wouldn't want to read superhero novels. They just wouldn't want to read it in comic book form.
However, I think I've said upthread--or at least in about twenty billion recent threads we've had on trends--that superheroes are not an easy sell. Many agents who would take on a superhero book already have a client writing one. That means that they don't think they can't sell them at all. It just means that they don't think the market's going to open up to superheroes in such a way that it'd be worth having more than one client writing about them.
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How does that work for the viewers who never read or watched the huge pre-existing universe? What's making the movies for them?
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Bloodfiend--what makes superheroes popular? I can tell you what appeals to me about certain characters. Batman is interesting because of the dichotomy between his real life and the fake one. He's a superhero whose secret identity is Bruce Wayne, not Batman. That alone is telling, but the fact that he's incredibly intelligent, has given over his life to the superhero elements, and tends to be on the paranoid side, are all what makes him fascinating to me. What is it about those elements that couldn't be done well in a novel?
Similarly, I love Spiderman. He's my favorite in general. I love his sense of humor and the fact that a lot of the bad things that happen do so because he's Spiderman. There's always that question of whether or not he's saving people or harming people. And the whole watching him be pushed harder and harder and seeing how he reacts to that element as well.
I've talked to my other friends who enjoy comic books as well, and the reasons that we love particular characters and stories is for the character and the depth. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "I like Batman because he has the best fight scenes." Cool visuals and art are icing on the cake for me.
Similarly, I love Spiderman. He's my favorite in general. I love his sense of humor and the fact that a lot of the bad things that happen do so because he's Spiderman. There's always that question of whether or not he's saving people or harming people. And the whole watching him be pushed harder and harder and seeing how he reacts to that element as well.
I've talked to my other friends who enjoy comic books as well, and the reasons that we love particular characters and stories is for the character and the depth. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "I like Batman because he has the best fight scenes." Cool visuals and art are icing on the cake for me.
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In fact, a lot of times I think the people who do follow the stories in comic book form tend to be frustrated by movies. It seems like the long-term fans dislike changes that are made when it's changed to movie format, but the casual viewer who has only a general idea (if that) of the story are more satisfied because they don't notice the differences.
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They still know who The Hulk is. Because it's the HULK. Or BATMAN. They're more than just a singular title. They're a brand. They're a name. They're Halloween costumes. Unless you're getting into more niche stuff like Vertigo's line, or Kick-Ass, pretty much everyone has heard of either Iron Man, Thor, or Captain America if they're American. I can't see the movies getting the same draw if it was Copper Man, Loki (well, maybe, because that would be kick-ass), or Captain Canada. That's part of why John Carter failed, IMO.
Of course, Hancock is an exception, but who remembers his costume? I think the draw to that was more black anti-hero with Will Smith riding on his fame wave, rather than just Hancock!
But who knows? I could be wrong. The next big thing could be Stargirl: The Trilogy. Except, well not Stargirl, because that name is already taken.
ETA:
Kaitie: I suppose I'd have to see it to believe it. Those themes work well in novels, yes, but could the story of Batman work well on paper? Could you read Arkham Asylum without the art, and without knowing Batman's history? I couldn't. But I'm a visual person, and I don't like reading comic books with endless thought bubbles that intrude upon the art. That's what I hate about a lot of Jeph Loeb's stuff. The art can hold the story without the words. And I guess it depends on what kind of superhero you're talking about. I'm really just talking about the popular titles that could translate to YA. Spiderman gets out of HS. Young Justice and Teen Titans (the old ones) are really the only titles that could be YA, right now. And a lot of the volumes for TT V3 is just visual fighting, which, tbh, isn't all that interesting for me read.
It could be done, but for me, it wouldn't be the same type of superhero that I'm used to thinking about. Batman isn't just the personality, he's also the costume, and the coloring style, and the pantheon of villains behind him.
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It might just be a taste thing, then. I think novels make an awesome new way of exploring superhero stories mostly because of the differences in medium. And the people who read mine seemed to like it in spite of the lack of visuals (man I would love to do a website for it one day, though. I have the whole comic-book style layout in my head and it'd be awesome).
Obviously a lot of people think similarly to you, though. Personally, I enjoy it and I know other people who do as well, but I have no idea if I'm the norm or in the minority. You're right that part of Batman is the costume, but I visualize pretty well and so if an author gives a good description I can imagine things pretty well. Doesn't lend well to flashy fight scenes, but I still think it can work as long as authors recognize the limitations and strengths of various forms and accommodate accordingly.
Obviously a lot of people think similarly to you, though. Personally, I enjoy it and I know other people who do as well, but I have no idea if I'm the norm or in the minority. You're right that part of Batman is the costume, but I visualize pretty well and so if an author gives a good description I can imagine things pretty well. Doesn't lend well to flashy fight scenes, but I still think it can work as long as authors recognize the limitations and strengths of various forms and accommodate accordingly.
To the OP's question:
I think it's definitely unexplored and might be worth a try, but I also feel like superhero YA would be a pretty niche market. I might be wrong on that, but I personally wouldn't read a superhero book and don't know many who would. Obviously, some people will read that type of book, but I'm not sure the market is very big.
And if we're talking about The Avengers... I don't care for superheros. Frankly, they bore me. But in a movie with the comedy infusion, good acting, and action, I'll be interested. In a movie. In a book? Probably not.
Just my take, anyway, and since I know next to nothing about superhero YA, I might be wrong.
I think it's definitely unexplored and might be worth a try, but I also feel like superhero YA would be a pretty niche market. I might be wrong on that, but I personally wouldn't read a superhero book and don't know many who would. Obviously, some people will read that type of book, but I'm not sure the market is very big.
And if we're talking about The Avengers... I don't care for superheros. Frankly, they bore me. But in a movie with the comedy infusion, good acting, and action, I'll be interested. In a movie. In a book? Probably not.
Just my take, anyway, and since I know next to nothing about superhero YA, I might be wrong.
So it seems like costumes and such are a real turn off? That kinda makes me rethink the Magical girlish outfits my boys get. Or is it just Marvel/DC type of outfits?
In an interesting bit of timing, Victoria Schwab (author of the YA 'The Near Witch') just sold an adult novel to Tor. Her description of the book made me think of this thread, so I thought it'd definitely be of interest to the discussion. On her blog, she had this to say about it:
The official deal announcement and more about the book are in her full post here.
The official deal announcement and more about the book are in her full post here.
Just saw this on Publisher's Marketplace:
Harper Children's from Alloy?! They must be expecting this to be big.
Harper Children's from Alloy?! They must be expecting this to be big.
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I've been working on superhero YA stories for years, actually. I have about seven books started, one finished and in beta reading, one in first-draft revision.
I've also been influenced by Sailor Moon. ^_^ One of my stories came directly from a dream I had about Sailor Mercury.
I have about seven books started, one finished and in beta reading, one in first-draft revision.I've also been influenced by Sailor Moon. ^_^ One of my stories came directly from a dream I had about Sailor Mercury.
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Over the weekend I discovered Wearing the Cape by Marion G. Harmon, a upper YA superhero series that's self-published. It's really good. Two books out, third one in the works.
Thought this thread would be a good place to mention it. Some of you would enjoy it, I'm sure.
Thought this thread would be a good place to mention it. Some of you would enjoy it, I'm sure.
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I've never heard of Sara Shandler or Joelle Hobeika, but they're from Alloy Entertainment, which is a book packager, so they aren't really agents. Book packagers assess the market and come up with story ideas they think will fill a gap and become a big hit, then hire a writer to write it, then sell it to publishers. Gossip Girl, The Luxe, Pretty Little Liars... all series that came from Alloy.
Reviving this thread because I wanted to know if there've been any changes in the past couple of years in terms of the superhero YA market.
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