Too Old To Write Sex Scenes?

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gothicangel

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Oh, I wasn't critisizing her at all. I completely understand; especially since she's had this great career and can afford to slow down on the writing! The only reason I continue in spite of the demands as a carer is because of need. If I was already a best-selling novelist I (probably!) wouldn't write a word more, trust me! At that age and with that success anyone can choose to change direction or stop completely and it's a bit presumptios for anyone else to tell her not to.

Apologies, I didn't mean to suggest that you were criticising her. :)

It's fair enough if she doesn't want to write sex anymore. I think it's the 'proper writing' that annoys me. I would be really peed off if I was one of her readers though.
 

timewaster

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Why, is there something wrong with writing successful commercial fiction? It does have a hint of snobbery in there.

It doesn't win literary prizes or give you a lot of intellectual kudos - not unlike writing for kids actually.
It is what it is and I don't think anyone who has ever tried it would underestimate its difficulty or the skill of those who do it successfully. I imagine Jilly is rather tired of being sneered at by lit types and feels inclined to prove that yes she can do that other stuff too.
Is it snobbery? Perhaps, but it is also realistic commercial fiction just isn't highly regarded by the lit establishment.
 

KellyAssauer

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Why, is there something wrong with writing successful commercial fiction? It does have a hint of snobbery in there.

There's nothing at all wrong with writing successful commercial fiction.

Is it snobbery? Perhaps, but it is also realistic commercial fiction just isn't highly regarded by the lit establishment.

I don't believe there is a "lit establishment" but, perhaps there is. There are tons of so-called 'literary' books which have sex scenes of some sort. To think that including said sex scene or not including said sex scene is the single determining factor of some ambiguous definition between commercial and so-called 'literary' is ridiculous. The points I thought SonOfgrim made was:

I find sex scene are almost always a rather odd De-tore from the story itself, it doesn't really add anything in or move the plot forward.

This is where I have to agree that having a sex scene just to have a sex scene is a very annoying aside. If you're going to write a story, please stick to what is important to that story.

in some cases they can be appropriate, but unless you've been building to this point, it's just kind of a pointless narrative.

My current WIP has to have some sort of sex act scene, and more than one. It has to be that way. I cannot accurately describe the MC's affliction without going there.

The question for me as a writer is just how descriptive do I need to get? and I've found that I don't have to get very detailed at all. Language is a wonderful thing.

If this novel gets printed, will it be considered "realistic commercial fiction" or only "commercial fiction" or something 'literary?' I have no idea, nor do I really care what the 'label makers' are doing that week...

The only thing I care about is: Does the story work?
Did I do what I needed to do to tell the story?

What I hear from Ms Cooper's interview is the voice of a successful woman writer who might want her next work to be different than her last, and that's she's at a point in her career where she might like to step out of the label she's be given and try something different (and perhaps write something along the lines of Margaret Drabble) and if you can get to the point in your writing career where you can tell the publisher what you are writing next...

then bravo to you!
 

zegota

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I'm gonna have to be a voice of disagreement with the whole "no on-stage sex scene" thing. Obviously you can go too far (assuming you're not writing erotica), but a well-done, tasteful sex scene (or hell, even not tasteful if the story calls for it) is no different than a well done fight scene or action scene.

Yes, much of the time the actual sex isn't important, and you can cut away (though the same is generally true of fight scenes, and people rarely cut away from those). But sometimes the emotions the characters are feeling in the moment ARE important, and I find it offensive when people close the curtains, so to speak, just to avoid offending anyone's sensibilities.
 

Sarah Madara

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One of the joys of reading for me is getting to know characters and their relationships on a level far beyond how well I get to know most real people. Sex, written well, reveals character. To always stop at the bedroom door just because it seems "proper" is foolish, IMO.

Now, letting your mother read it is a whole other issue...
 

muravyets

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I agree with zegota. Character development is essential to a story as well, and sex is very revealing of character. If an integral relationship develops sexually, then the characters' sexuality -- how they do sex, deal with sex, etc. -- will also be integral. If knowing them that intimately is important, then we should not shy away from it, in my opinion.

But then, to be quite honest, I really don't have a problem with a little gratuitous sex, so long as it's in proper proportion. I mean, sure, cake is delicious without icing, but do we really think icing detracts from cake? I suppose some people do, but seriously now. ;)

Moderation in all things -- including moderation. So say I.
 

muravyets

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One of the joys of reading for me is getting to know characters and their relationships on a level far beyond how well I get to know most real people. Sex, written well, reveals character. To always stop at the bedroom door just because it seems "proper" is foolish, IMO.

Now, letting your mother read it is a whole other issue...
I don't mind mom reading my sex scenes. She's just not allowed to critique them. ;)
 

muravyets

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I don't write erotica, so I don't really do detailed descriptions or staging of sex scenes. But my WIP's MCs are both dealing with trust and intimacy issues, and I think sexuality is the best way to express that part of their story. In addition, they are up against a vampire Big Bad, who harms people in very intimate ways and warps relationships of trust. There is sexual imagery in the bad/violent acts in the story, which I think would be powerfully countered by the MCs' sexual experiences and connection.

So, even though my main plot is "break the curse, save the town," to gloss over sex scenes would, I believe, drain the life out of my vampire story. ;)

I'm only planning one sex scene (along with several scenes of attraction and sexual impulses as well as sexual menace), and I don't plan on being super-graphic about every act my couple will engage in together, but I do hope the final version will be noticeably "hot."
 

gothicangel

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timewaster;6078189 It doesn't win literary prizes or give you a lot of intellectual kudos - not unlike writing for kids actually. It is what it is and I don't think anyone who has ever tried it would underestimate its difficulty or the skill of those who do it successfully. I imagine Jilly is rather tired of being sneered at by lit types and feels inclined to prove that yes she can do that other stuff too. Is it snobbery? Perhaps said:
I write crime fiction, have successfully published poetry with a small press and studying for a MA in Classics. So anyone who wants to say that my books are as intelligent or nuanced as literary fiction better be prepared to get their butt kicked into next week.
 

dangerousbill

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I don't mind mom reading my sex scenes. She's just not allowed to critique them. ;)

The one problem with getting crits of erotica is that even experienced critters quickly get involved in the correctness and even the moral aspects of the acts described, and forget about pov, grammar, word choice, style, etc. The sort of "you'd never catch me doing something like that" response.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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I understand the impulse to want to switch things up a bit after decades of being known as the go-to writer for a certain kind of book. (I have encountered people using "a Jilly Cooper scene" or "a Jilly Cooper book" as shorthand, so.)

My hope for her is that she finds a way to wholeheartedly celebrate her past accomplishments while trying something new. One of the things I always loved about Barbara Cartland was her continuing delight in writing the fluffy romance with which her name was synonymous.
 

Libbie

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If I ever get to the point where I no longer think raunchy sex is appropriate (mark the if), I will know I am officially Old.
 

KellyAssauer

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*backs silently against wall, slips out of thread unnoticed*
 

aruna

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I don't believe there is a "lit establishment" but, perhaps there is. There are tons of so-called 'literary' books which have sex scenes of some sort. To think that including said sex scene or not including said sex scene is the single determining factor of some ambiguous definition between commercial and so-called 'literary' is ridiculous. The points I thought SonOfgrim made was:




!
Right now I'm reading The Buddha of Suburbia which has a lot of very graphic sex. The book won the WHitbread prize a few years back and was highly praised by such icons as Salman Rushdie. So: literary. Lots of literary novels have sex scenes, especially so in the last couple of years.

One of the joys of reading for me is getting to know characters and their relationships on a level far beyond how well I get to know most real people. Sex, written well, reveals character. To always stop at the bedroom door just because it seems "proper" is foolish, IMO.

Now, letting your mother read it is a whole other issue...

But that suggests you have to witness a person having sex in order to know them. I have to confess I've never witnessed anybody having sex, nor have nay desire to do so, and yet I feel I know many people very well indeed! For me, it's exactly the same in books. I don't have to "watch" a character having sex in order to feel I know them intimitely or identify with them completely. Just as I'm not interested in my friends having sex, so I'm not interested in characters doing "it". Other aspects of thier lives interest me far more.


If I ever get to the point where I no longer think raunchy sex is appropriate (mark the if), I will know I am officially Old.


Oh. Well, I've never wanted to read raunchy sex so I guess I'm permanently old, and always have been! ;)
 
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aruna

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I understand the impulse to want to switch things up a bit after decades of being known as the go-to writer for a certain kind of book. (I have encountered people using "a Jilly Cooper scene" or "a Jilly Cooper book" as shorthand, so.)

My hope for her is that she finds a way to wholeheartedly celebrate her past accomplishments while trying something new..

Exactly. Switching to an entrely new kind of writing is always an exciting challenge. It will be interesting to see if her fans follow her, or if she gets a whole new set of fans! It sounds to me as if she felt stuck in a particular writing rut and just wants to get out. Good luck to her I say.
 

kuwisdelu

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If she just feels like writing something else, that's fine and great.

But the implication that there's something "improper" about sex scenes is just stupid. It's not like literary fiction doesn't have any sex scenes.
 

aruna

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But the implication that there's something "improper" about sex scenes is just stupid. It's not like literary fiction doesn't have any sex scenes.


But that's not what she said at all. The original quote is this:

When you get older you suddenly realise you don't have long left. You've got to get going. I've always wanted to read all the books in the world but I won't ever be able to. It's frightening because I've always thought I'm going to live for ever, and I'm not. I'd like to write a good book, a proper good book. My mother always admired Margaret Drabble…
She didn't at all say that there's something improper about sex scenes or that literary fiction didn't have sex scenes. In fact, the interview wasn't about sex at all, but about who she is as a writer. The Daily Mail, in its typical sensationalist way, put sex in the headlines and linked it to the "proper books" remark but that's not what she said at all. The interview is much more about where she is now herself and how that will reflect in her writing. I understand her to be saying she doesn't feel she herself has yet written a good, proper book, and that's because she''s too colloquial, not too sexy.

She says this about her writing:

Q: do you think you're a good writer? A: No, I think I'm a reasonable writer. Although Alan Clark [the diarist and former Tory MP] once said I wrote like an angel, the sweetheart, but I'm much too colloquial. I call Sampson [a mean-spirited male character in Jump!] a shit on the first page. Perhaps I shouldn't have done that… I'm not a real writer because I get drunk at parties when I should be observing things.
She's tired of what she's written to date. She's caring for a husband with Parkinson's. She's getting older. She's getting more serious about life.

I imagine that "bonkbusters" don't fit in with this older self.

I read Riders about a hundred years ago, and I remember liking it a lot. A real pageturner, very funny to boot, lighthearted and just good fun. But I can well imagine that it's not in keeping with who she is now. And she is perfectly entitled to criticize her own work and want to write something more serious, which she calls "good and proper".
 
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Sarah Madara

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But that suggests you have to witness a person having sex in order to know them. I have to confess I've never witnessed anybody having sex, nor have nay desire to do so, and yet I feel I know many people very well indeed! For me, it's exactly the same in books. I don't have to "watch" a character having sex in order to feel I know them intimitely or identify with them completely. Just as I'm not interested in my friends having sex, so I'm not interested in characters doing "it". Other aspects of thier lives interest me far more.

That wasn't what I meant at all. I don't feel the need to know the details of my friends' sex lives in order to know them better. I read a lot of romance, which certainly biases me because the book is about the relationship. A good sex scene isn't about "watching" the characters having sex. It's about understanding how the characters relate to each other physically, how their personalities play out in the bedroom, what the dynamics of the relationship are. It isn't necessary any more than any other detail is necessary.

You could write a whole book in which you never describe two characters sharing a meal, or in which they never have an argument, or they never kiss. But all those things do help reveal who they are, round them out as people, and help the reader relate to them. Sex is just another aspect - one that happens to be private in real life, but no less important to who people are, IMO.

She's tired of what she's written to date. She's caring for a husband with Parkinson's. She's getting older. She's getting more serious about life.

I agree. I think she just wants to write something more serious, and we've jumped on the sex scenes without taking it in context.
 

Libbie

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Obviously it depends on how much the story centers around sex. Sex is a very real and important part of human experience, so it's fair to expect that many stories will focus strongly on sexuality. There are also lots of other important parts of human experience, so it's fair to expect that one can find stories that don't have much (or anything) to do with sex.

Some stories are about the sexual experience -- and I'm not only referring to erotica or even romance here. It's cool if the author wants to switch focus to non-sex stories. She should go with that impulse. I just hope it works out well for her after a long career of sex tales. It probably will, but you know how fans can be sometimes.
 

aruna

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That wasn't what I meant at all. I don't feel the need to know the details of my friends' sex lives in order to know them better. I read a lot of romance, which certainly biases me because the book is about the relationship. A good sex scene isn't about "watching" the characters having sex. It's about understanding how the characters relate to each other physically, how their personalities play out in the bedroom, what the dynamics of the relationship are. It isn't necessary any more than any other detail is necessary.

.

OTOH, a couple NOT having sex, or even kissing, can be the most tension building. delicious part of a story! I for one think that Pride and Prejudice would not have had half its appeal if Miss Bennet had had sex with Mr Darcy... you can understand about relationships, FEEL them, in so many ways.
 

muravyets

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When it comes to comparing good books that contain sex and good books that don't contain sex, I think we end up running in circles. It's been said over and over in lots of threads -- content should suit and serve the story. So to say that Pride and Prejudice doesn't need explicit sex scenes doesn't say anything at all about other books.

ETA: I, for one, am not going to compare Austen to, say, DH Lawrence on the basis of which is more effective dramatically -- his explicit use of sex or her implicit use of it.

ETA2: Anyway, we all know that Elizabeth and Darcy get it on like minks. They just start after the end of the story about how they got over themselves enough to get into each other. ;)
 
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zegota

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OTOH, a couple NOT having sex, or even kissing, can be the most tension building. delicious part of a story! I for one think that Pride and Prejudice would not have had half its appeal if Miss Bennet had had sex with Mr Darcy... you can understand about relationships, FEEL them, in so many ways.

To take this argument to an extreme, seeing a character NOT speak, NOT act can build just as much tension as dialogue or action.

I don't think that anyone's arguing that books MUST include sex to paint a full picture of a character. But it's a tool that can be used, and I believe there are times, in certain stories, for certain characters, where exploring that without cutting away because it's more 'proper' is the best choice for the story. That's all I've been trying to argue.

You say Pride and Prejudice would not have been improved by explicit sex, and I agree. But I also look at a work like Lady Chatterley's Lover, and I see that the sex was absolutely necessary there.


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muravyets; said:
ETA: I, for one, am not going to compare Austen to, say, DH Lawrence on the basis of which is more effective dramatically -- his explicit use of sex or her implicit use of it.

Hey! Way to make me look like an idiot! ;-)
 

aruna

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When it comes to comparing good books that contain sex and good books that don't contain sex, I think we end up running in circles. It's been said over and over in lots of threads -- content should suit and serve the story. So to say that Pride and Prejudice doesn't need explicit sex scenes doesn't say anything at all about other books.

I wasn't trying to compare. Just giving an example of how much a character and his/her relationship can get under your skin even if they hardly even touch.

ETA but we're moving away from the point, which is that JC didn't say she was too old to write sex, or that it isn't proper. She just finds it more difficult now. Her reason is tiredness, not age. The lady is 74, after all; I think she has the right to write slower books!
 
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muravyets

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Actually, I took her comment to mean she wanted to write better or in a more literary or artistic style, not necessarily more chastely, though that may very well follow from changing the focus of her stories.

But I guess my point was of course very effective character revelation can be done without a sex scene. I don't think anybody in the thread said otherwise. But that doesn't change the fact that a person's sex life can be a major indicator of personality and psychological traits. There are certain emotional effects that can be best revealed through sex. Sometimes, they're not even about the characters, but about the overall mood or emotional atmosphere of a story. In such cases, even a graphic sex scene will not be gratuitous.
 

Jonathan Dalar

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I find sex scene are almost always a rather odd De-tore from the story itself, it doesn't really add anything in or move the plot forward. in some cases they can be appropriate, but unless you've been building to this point, it's just kind of a pointless narrative. That said, no you are never to old for a sex scene. just use your imagination.

I don't care for sex scenes myself. I don't write them if I don't have to, and they're really not that hard to avoid in SF/H/F genres.

I have written them though. In one book in particular, I felt it was best to go ahead and get into it just a little. Just enough to evoke a certain feeling from the reader. Just enough to create the emotion I was going for in the scene. It was important for the book, and had to be in there.

Like anything else, such as violence or gore, you put in what gives you the desired effect. If glossing over it is fine, you can do that. If you have to get a little deeper into the weeds, so to speak, well, you just gotta roll up your sleeves and wade in.

I just don't get why some people, mostly critics, seem to think that only literary books are 'real' books, and that commercial fiction success isn't as good as literary success.

I've heard writers say it sometimes too. It's sad. A good book is a good book.


I think that's the case. Many genres get stereotyped into categories that are nothing more than "guilty pleasures", romance and erotic fiction probably the most of all. I've seen it with other genres as well, especially the more "commercial" fiction.

Pretty much every genre out there except for literary fiction gets the stigma of being "not serious work" or "written for money". Literary fiction has the stereotype of being snobbish and pretentious, and with some merit. People speak about it as though it's the only real thing with written work. It's written because it's original, or avant guarde, or from the mind of some kind of defiant hipster genius. It's put up on a pedestal and worshiped like some holy grail of the literary world.

Truth is, most of the famous classics wrote their stuff as just a great story, in an age where their work was considered pulp fiction. We've just put their stuff up on that pedestal and labeled it literary long enough for it to have stuck.

This seems like a case of her needing to complete her bucket list, but it's a list which may have precipitated from that thought that her stuff was just pulp fiction for the masses and wasn't "good enough" to stand by literary fiction as an equal. If so, that's sad, for it just perpetuates that mindset.
 
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