The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Sassenach · Apr 14, 2005

If you've never been involved with a cult or cult-like group, you're probably going to find it difficult to understand the behavior of some PA'ers.

As a survivor of est [my baby boomer compadres will recognize that name], I know that it takes time to extricate oneself from an organization that one has put a piece of one's heart into.

It's not rational, I know. It doesn't make sense. You may see the scam clearly--for scamees/victims--it may take time.

Richard · Apr 14, 2005

Gena, nobody thought it was about you. Calm down.

Just think if you could get ten authors together in a room, all with different ideas of how things should work. Writers, by definition, have something to say...and many can be very opinionated (and stubborn)

Yes. Which is why I'm not a member of any writing groups. I always end up wanting to prove the pen's superiority with the sword - and I use a fountain pen, not a biro, so I'm in a better position than most in that respect! Avast, ye scurvy present-tensers...

T42 · Apr 14, 2005

Sassenach said:
If you've never been involved with a cult or cult-like group, you're probably going to find it difficult to understand the behavior of some PA'ers.

As a survivor of est [my baby boomer compadres will recognize that name], I know that it takes time to extricate oneself from an organization that one has put a piece of one's heart into.

It's not rational, I know. It doesn't make sense. You may see the scam clearly--for scamees/victims--it may take time.

I'm just thankful that they banned me so quickly from the boards. I could still be stuck in POD land

James D. Macdonald · Apr 14, 2005

MsRasputina said:
Forgive me for butting in, but I just had to delurk for a sec ... was the book actually printed and sold like that!? That's horrible.

Yeah, I have a copy right here.

SeanDSchaffer · Apr 14, 2005

Mem, I don't normally disagree with you, but...

T42 said:
These people are going to defend PA until they have gotten a belly full and to allow them to come to a thread at AW and do this is not right in my opinion. Let them state an opinion and then move on. By allowing what happened yesterday, we are inviting harassment from every Pa author that wants to come over and do this. (Don’t think this whole thing wasn't being watched)

I have to disagree with you here. I don't mean to offend, but even though it's very hard to deal with people doing this all the time, I know of a few PA authors -- as well as authors from elsewhere -- who came over here fighting, much like happened yesterday, but eventually became upstanding members of this online community. They got what they had to say off their chest, and once that was done, their minds opened up to what was being said. I know it's difficult -- trust me, I've been in so many long-winded arguments over on the PA boards, it's downright ridiculous -- but if there's not a place where people can do this, I think the attitudes over on the PA boards that everybody here hates them and is closed-minded, will only be reinforced. If I may be so bold, I don't think I've ever known you, Mem, to want that attitude reinforced. It was a hard day to handle for all of us, but I've observed the individual in question all through the night and I'm finding her attitude to be changing and herself to be mellowing out quite a bit.

I hope you understand, Mem, this is in no way discounting what you've experienced. Having been the victim of numerous Guestbook Slammers over the last few months -- all because of my publisher -- I know how hard it is to go to a place I love and worry what I'm going to read there. I'd actually gotten to the point where I had to remove my guestbook entirely -- before I took my entire site down for other reasons -- because of the stress it was causing me.

But if these people aren't given a place to try to push their point, they'll go back to PA and boast, "Those people over there are so closed-minded," and other such things. It'll just reinforce everything they've been told by PA.

Please forgive me if what I've posted bothers you in any way, it's hard to read it after yesterday I know. But please try to think how you'd feel if after being banned at PA and being ridiculed there, you came over here, tried to get something off your chest, and got in trouble for it. I personally don't think you'd look at this site the same way as you do now.

You're a good friend, Mem. It's an honor and privilege to share this board with you. I hope you'll forgive me if I sound calloused or anything like that, because that's not my intent.

:Hug2:

astonwest · Apr 14, 2005

Richard said:
Yes. Which is why I'm not a member of any writing groups...

*looks around*
Yes, you are...

MsRasputina · Apr 14, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Yeah, I have a copy right here.

Oh, my. I've heard the stories but have yet to see an actual PA book "in the flesh," so to speak. That's really appalling.

Richard · Apr 14, 2005

Yes, you are...

Pffft. I'm a secret PA plant. Like a ficus, maybe. Here to bring you down from the inside when you're....not....expecting....

....oh darn.

Sheryl Nantus · Apr 14, 2005

MsRasputina said:
Oh, my. I've heard the stories but have yet to see an actual PA book "in the flesh," so to speak. That's really appalling.

yep... and the sad part that while there may and have been good books out there from PublishAmerica, no one will ever read them BECAUSE of the immediate association with bad editing/no editing. This author worked hard to create something wonderful and got screwed over in the end and the company doesn't CARE.

mention PublishAmerica to anyone in the industry and they shudder and pat you on the head while clucking their tongues in sympathy. That's not where any writer should be.

T42 · Apr 14, 2005

SeanDSchaffer said:
I have to disagree with you here. I don't mean to offend, but even though it's very hard to deal with people doing this all the time,

Sean, I am not offended at all by what you are saying. You are right in your thinking and it is true that these people need a place to vent where they won't get banned for speaking out. (and I have seen the attitude change too) That is why I felt safe writing what I did. I just have a hard time listening to it and know that I should just walk away when I feel this way but then being the snoopy ol' hippie that I am, my curiosity get's the best of me and I want to know what's being said. Then, I get mad for what's being said. Then I put the person on ignore and hurry back to take them off ignore...Wow, what a vicious cycle. :Shrug:

{{{HUGS}}}

bluwinteryfox · Apr 14, 2005

The lunacy of yesterday

:Lecture:

I want to say a few words about the lunacy :crazy:

that occurred yesterday for several hours. I know that we as artists have a tendency of being high strung, some more than others. As writing artists, we use our words to express ourselves, which is fine and dandy. When we forget our common sense or even logic and just rely on our emotions, well then things become all messed up, the muck of yesterday happens. :Headbang:

Now to keep on task, PA stinks. The three stooges do not care about anyone but themselves. They are a trio of con artists.

I posted a while ago suggesting people not post while high on emotions. I think that’s what happened, emotions were on over drive yesterday. Ed tried, three or was it four times, to tell us to stop responding. Yet nobody listened to him. What would have happened if Victoria shut the thread down for 24 hours?

Who would that have benefitted? Not us, not some person who had a question about PA and wanted to ask a question. It would have helped PA.

So please, if a post causes your temperature to rise or your emotions to spin out of control, take a deep breath. Walk away from your computer, get off-line, do the BIC thing uncle Jim suggests. Wait a while and see if you still feel the same.

Back on task. PA stinks. They lie and they did not edit my manuscript. They only want to line their pockets and not those of their authors.

T42 · Apr 14, 2005

tinasamuels said:
And thank you for the red reputation mark. Coming from you its a complement.

Speaking in which, I have been trying to give out some of the good rep points since last night and they said I have given out too many already. They said try again in 24 hours. Well, I'm pretty sure that it's been 24 hours since I got the first message. I need my powers back...pleaseeeeee :Hail:

I'm having withdrawls.......

SeanDSchaffer · Apr 14, 2005

T42 said:
Sean, I am not offended at all by what you are saying. You are right in your thinking and it is true that these people need a place to vent where they won't get banned for speaking out. (and I have seen the attitude change too) That is why I felt safe writing what I did. I just have a hard time listening to it and know that I should just walk away when I feel this way but then being the snoopy ol' hippie that I am, my curiosity get's the best of me and I want to know what's being said. Then, I get mad for what's being said. Then I put the person on ignore and hurry back to take them off ignore...Wow, what a vicious cycle. {{{HUGS}}}

Thanks for understanding, Mem. I think we all get that way sometimes. We're only human.
:kiss:

Now, about PA...

I mentioned to a newbie about the cover of my PA book. Has anyone seen it yet? If so, do you agree with me that their covers aren't exactly up to industry standards?

Oh? You already agree with me on that point? Never mind!

ResearchGuy · Apr 14, 2005

MsRasputina said:
Oh, my. I've heard the stories but have yet to see an actual PA book "in the flesh," so to speak. That's really appalling.

I have seen a couple from several feet away, and actually opened one long enough at a writers group meeting to flip through and scan a few paragraphs of wooden prose. (Not the sort of thing that anyone would buy in a bookstore, given the myriad of other and less expensive choices.) Unfortunately, there seems to be no place one can go to examine PA books (excluding such one-off encounters) and to develop a real feel for what those eleven thousand happy authors are producing.

--Ken

Ed Williams · Apr 14, 2005

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make...

....and I wish to offend no one, but when someone comes in here and expresses an unpopular opinion, it should be answered and then that should be it. It shouldn't be answered and answered and answered yet again. When we do that, what we are doing is allowing the person with the negative viewpoint to set the direction of the thread. Personally, if Victoria had shut down this thread last night I would have applauded her. Why? It wasn't a thread anymore, it was one person battling several, with the same bombs being tossed back and forth over and over again. Folks, when we participate in something like that, guess what happens? PA wins......

T42 · Apr 14, 2005

SeanDSchaffer said:
Now, about PA...

I mentioned to a newbie about the cover of my PA book. Has anyone seen it yet? If so, do you agree with me that their covers aren't exactly up to industry standards?

Oh? You already agree with me on that point? Never mind!

T42 · Apr 14, 2005

Ed Williams said:
.... Why? It wasn't a thread anymore, it was one person battling several, with the same bombs being tossed back and forth over and over again. Folks, when we participate in something like that, guess what happens? PA wins......

That is all I was trying to say....

cwgranny · Apr 14, 2005

I am a bit bewildered by the whole lengthy gena thread. She's hardly the first person to really really like PA while early in the process. Why should she be mad at them? They havent' done anything to her yet. Sure, some of us were never screwed by PA and we wouldn't deal with them because of what they've done to others -- But the rest of the world isn't required to live by my (or anyone else's) moral compass. Plus, Gena hasn't witnessed the abuse of other folks whom she cares about -- it's not that startling that she doesn't get up in arms over the offenses of folks she doesn't even know. A vague, "Gosh, I'm sorry that you got hurt" is really not that unusual a response to something that happened to total strangers.

Gena is also not the first person to come on here and explain how the PA method WILL WORK FOR them because THEY have thought this all out and THEY are different and THEY have thought this all out. And she is far far from the first PA author to have a lawyer look at the contract and say, "Sure, looks fine to me -- you should see music contracts, now they're horror shows!"

Yes, we don't agree with her. Yes, not agreeing with someone (by definition) means you think the person is wrong. Yes, no one likes to be told they are wrong about something where they have a BIG HONKING investment -- um, that's understandable. Yes, we've seen this story before and we know how it's going to end...but goodness, we can let the lady live out her own version of it. We can't snatch her out of the fire, folks, she's already signed, sealed and delivered. If you want her to join in the "snatch others from the fire" brigade, you're simply going to have to give her time to get there.

After all, Diana has done quite a bit to try to save others from walking her road but when she first started on it, she TOTALLY believed that PA was the right publisher for her book and that her promotional efforts were going to work and that her PA story would have a happy happy ending. If she had come here then, she might have scrapped with a person or two herself.

Let Gena live out her own PA story. We can simply not rise up even if we feel baited...after all, you were only baited if you choose to be so.

gran

M. Story · Apr 14, 2005

XThe NavigatorX said:
Check it out.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2260.htm

She's going to 'expose' their books.

It's just wonderful that PA now has so many authors they're considered a demographic by the worst sort of scammers: those who prey on the already-scammed.

This person sent me an e-mail with the same wording. I labeled it "spam" and reported it to my ISP. She also sent it to many others who have posted on the PA boards as indicated by the many other names listed at the top of the message.

Marlene

T42 · Apr 14, 2005

M. Story said:
This person sent me an e-mail with the same wording. I labeled it "spam" and reported it to my ISP. She also sent it to many others who have posted on the PA boards as indicated by the many other names listed at the top of the message.

Marlene

Well I wish her lot's of luck getting a PA book in bookstores!

Jeff · Apr 14, 2005

Why? It wasn't a thread anymore, it was one person battling several, with the same bombs being tossed back and forth over and over again. Folks, when we participate in something like that, guess what happens? PA wins......

I'm a veteran of many flame wars, from the days of local BBSs up through USEnet and the pay services. In the end, the flames don't really accomplish anything (although they sure do feel good when you are typing them, which is why people keep being involved in them).

In terms of flame wars, this was but a tiny sizzle, to be sure.

In hindsight, we probably should have moved over to the TAKE IT OUTSIDE board. Maybe when the moderators get a chance to catch their breath, that section of the thread will be moved.

I agree with you though, Ed. What happened yesterrday really does not do anyone important any good at all.

===========================

Nash: "This is my BOOMSTICK!!"

WhisperingBard · Apr 14, 2005

Pffft. I'm a secret PA plant. Like a ficus, maybe. Here to bring you down from the inside when you're....not....expecting....

....oh darn.

Does this mean you'll have to turn over a new leaf, Richard?

M. Story · Apr 14, 2005

changling said:
Hi Marlene, you can now get your I'm with the Banned tee-shirt. Shame how they treated you. Once they get the money, they don't care about you, or their product anymore.

Kas,Chang-ling,Ken

Hi Kas, It's great to see you here. I always enjoyed reading your posts on the PA board, and I'm sure you're a great contributer to this one, too.

A banned tee-shirt! I will have to buy one as I'm elated that I'm banned from the PA boards and would like to flaunt it.

If people ask about it when I wear it to future book events, I'll be happy to explain the whole sordid mess as to why I was banned.

About your book purchase...OUCH! 150 books! YIKES!

You spent 3x what I did for my 50 books! (Gosh, I'm a math whiz. Who knew?

) A triple whammy for you, but hey, if you learned something--it's worth it, right?

Yeah, I'm not so sure, either. ha!

About all we can do is warn others not to make the same mistakes we did, and pray that they'll listen.

On that note....have a wonderful, productive day.
I wish the same to all the PA lurkers and invite them over to share their questions and concerns here.

Marlene

victoriastrauss · Apr 14, 2005

MartyKay said:
On Lee Goldberg's Blog, there is this nice post (from a couple of days ago):
http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2005/04/bancroft_press_.html
that has a lovely list of Vanity Presses and Approach With Caution publishers...

Guess who's number three on the Vanity Press list?

In his "Approach with Caution" list are several full-time vanity presses: Brundage, Blackie & Co, Pegasus Elliot McKenzie, Washington House, and VMI.

There's one that's a front for editing services: Neshui.

There's one that makes its living off of reading fees: Imperium Proviso (whose books don't even have ISBN numbers).

There's one that is hiding from creditors and hundreds of angry authors behind a threat to declare bankruptcy: Creative Arts Books.

There's one that, among many other things, has been the focus of copyright infringement complaints (one author won a judgment): Oak Tree Press.

Not so much "Approach with Caution" publishers as "Avoid at all Costs" publishers.

I think it's wonderful when people get involved with the fight against dishonest publishers and literary agents. I get annoyed when those people present themselves as scam experts, without adequate experience or access to documentation.

But hey. I've only been doing this for eight years. What do I know?

- Victoria

James D. Macdonald · Apr 14, 2005

M. Story said:
This person sent me an e-mail with the same wording. I labeled it "spam" and reported it to my ISP.

At first I wondered how an obvious spammer/scammer got onto the PA boards ... then I remembered exactly how easy it is to sell a book to PA and get a password.

If I wanted to start reading and posting on their private boards I could probably get in by this time next week.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

5 W's & an H

13th Triskaidekaphobe

Herb Lady

Your Genial Uncle

SeanDSchaffer

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

13th Triskaidekaphobe

Holding out for a Superhero...

Herb Lady

fun's my middle name

Herb Lady

SeanDSchaffer

Resident Curmudgeon

Herb Lady

Herb Lady

Pollyanna with n attitude

Herb Lady

Quixote without a cause

Wary...and weary

Pollyanna with n attitude

Writer Beware Goddess

Your Genial Uncle