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What if your Beta experience did not go as planned?

JackieS

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Oh, man, I am going through the same thing. I sent out my book to a bunch of people and not one of them has given me any feedback. I would welcome anything, even just an "I'm sorry I didn't get to this and I don't think I ever will." If it's bad, tell me so I can fix it. I am going through such a self loathing writer phase right now.
 

Punk28

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I started out with having my former teachers (as in English and Creative Writing teachers) as my beta readers. They helped me along from The Unknown Sibling to The Door in the Mist then they all decided to drop out right after I had completed the first four chapters of The Shadowed One. I struggled in getting The Shadowed One completed, I went through 2 friends who said that they'd love to beta read what I was writing (both said that they couldn't because either a) they had no time to read what I was sending them or b) my chapters were too long). The Shadowed One was a hard story to write, I did most of the beta reading myself (it was a hairy job, to tell you the truth. I did and still do like what I wrote in that story, just didn't like having to put further chapters on hold to self-beta what I had previously written).

I have no beta reader for my current WIP, I'm honestly looking for one
 
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WriteMinded

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I started out with having my former teachers (as in English and Creative Writing teachers) as my beta readers. They helped me along from The Unknown Sibling to The Door in the Mist then they all decided to drop out right after I had completed the first four chapters of The Shadowed One. I struggled in getting The Shadowed One completed, I went through 2 friends who said that they'd love to beta read what I was writing (both said that they couldn't because either a) they had no time to read what I was sending them or b) my chapters were too long). The Shadowed One was a hard story to write, I did most of the beta reading myself (it was a hairy job, to tell you the truth. I did and still do like what I wrote in that story, just didn't like having to put further chapters on hold to self-beta what I had previously written).

I have no beta reader for my current WIP, I'm honestly looking for one

Yes, beta reading is a hairy job. That is why most critters do not want to dig through one raw chapter at a time. I am not sure of the terminology, but maybe you are looking for an alpha reader, or a couple of writing buddies, or a mentor? Most people here — someone correct me if I am wrong — consider beta reading as reading and critiquing a completed manuscript, one that has been edited, polished, and spit-shined by the author.

If I stopped after every chapter to await a critique before moving on, I'd never finish anything. I have a hard enough time getting to The End as it is.
 

Maggie Maxwell

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Had one from here just as you described. After a while I decided he wasn't worth the effort to contact with. Never got a thank you for the crit I did on the partial he sent me of his piece, though he did crit the partial I sent him. But after that, he stopped responding to my messages and like you, I saw that he was posting on the forum.

Sounds kinda like my experience. He asked me to beta his work because he thought I'd like it, and I agreed even though we'd never talked before. Someone wanted my opinion and I was flattered. A few "have you started?" emails later, I finally had the free time to work. It ended up being a very rough draft. I did what I could and sent my notes on the first chapter back saying "It needs more work before I can continue, but I do want to continue. We can even do a chapter at a time if you want to clean and send it to me as you go."

Never heard another thing. No "thank you," no "could you do more now?" Not even a "Shut up, you're wrong, never contact me again." Meanwhile, he was still posting around here. Really soured the betaing experience for people I don't know well.
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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I agree with your definition of beta reading. A beta reader shouldn't have to do a LBL, fixing basic grammar mistakes, punctuation, etc. Some will do it, but if there's too much of it, it becomes exhausting.

Regarding chapter critting, I'm on Critique Corner, and I swear by that site. Some people swear at the site :) . YMMV. I didn't put my full MS through the site (some people do), but I posted enough of it to get a feel for the mistakes that I frequently make. Then I went through the whole MS and killed those.

Getting beta readers from AW can also be hit and miss. I had one beta who did a so-so beta read; I've had two who've done such a fantastic job that my jaw dropped and I've got a bad case of inadequacy now about doing betas myself; and I had one beta reader who I never heard from again, and who in fact disappeared from this site. I still don't know if it was something I did that contributed to that :Shrug:.

My point (I ramble, but I usually have a point) is that it's hit and miss unless you are willing to pay for editing. If you do that, make sure you get testimonials from people on the site (whichever site the would-be editor hangs out on). I've gotten quotes as little as $640 for an 80K MS up to $1400 for same. Up to you if it's worth it. You could also do the first 1/4 of your MS, to learn where you make mistakes.
 
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Ashleythewriter77

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I sent out my first manuscript to a handful of people. 8 or so, I'd say. Of those 8, two got back to me very quickly, the next two took about a month or so, and four people never got back to me. Two basically said they wouldn't have time and apologized. The other two, when nudged, said they were going to get to it. That was six months ago by now I think.

I personally find it rude to take someone's work and sit on it, but I know that I have done it before. However, now that I know what it's like to be on this side of things, I've vowed never to make another writer wait and read into my silence. It's hard not to assume that no response is personal when really the volunteer probably just got caught up in his/her life.
 

heanev

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Just started having others beta read my work and out of 10 people I only had one person reply with feedback even though I gave them a month, no one has asked for an extension either... I also did a swap with someone and sent back my feedback for hers but she responded that she was busy and couldn't do mine until May which she still has yet to respond if she'd be able to finish by then. I also sent my MS to someone on the forum interested in a swap so I sent her mine but never got hers.

I've also sent my MS to a few others who seem to have gotten started on my MS so I'm excited that is moving along because I hadn't heard from them for awhile.

It's tough to find those dedicated beta readers. I definitely appreciate all those who read my work, it's just difficult to keep tabs on where they are without being a nag or bothersome.
 

Katana

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What I find frustrating is receiving advice from a beta, but then you have nagging doubts about whether what that advice is correct.

One beta recently told me "do not EVER change POV in a chapter". Please correct me if I'm wrong and he's right, but I always thought a scene break (#) was all that's required for a POV change unless it's omni. Another recent piece of advice was that agents and publishers want works under 100K--and closer to 90K--from new writers. Doesn't it all depend on the manuscript, genre and the agent?

Blanket statements like these, if they're incorrect, can be harmful. I wish there was a comprehensive site out there that could shoot down or confirm this kind of "advice"...oh, wait! I'm on it right now! :D

What say you? Are this advice sound or should it be ignored?
 

railroad

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The problem is there are no hard and fast rules about these things. I have heard the first bit of advice about POV, but I've seen this rule broken many times. As far as the word count, that depends on the agent. My story is 126,000 words. I've met agents at conferences and have had some balk at the length and others say the book should be as long as it takes to tell the story.

I'm of the belief that beta or developmental edits are so subjective that they must be taken with a huge grain of salt (not sure that metaphor works, but whatever.). If someone gives you a piece of advice and a lightbulb goes off in your head and you say "Oh, of course!" then by all means heed the advice given. But if they suggest something that doesn't seem right, disregard. Ask yourself, if I make that change, am I going to be happier with my book or less happy? I think of betas as a way to open you to new ideas, not to reengineer your whole story or write the book the way they would have written it.
 
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Dennis E. Taylor

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What railroad said. Plus, I think most beta readers are just offering their opinons and know that they are just opinions. That's certainly true for me. I know what I like and what doesn't work for me; if something confuses me I'll say so. But when I offer my opinion about it, I know very well that it's just one data point. If you choose to ignore, that's fine.
 

WriteMinded

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What I find frustrating is receiving advice from a beta, but then you have nagging doubts about whether what that advice is correct.

One beta recently told me "do not EVER change POV in a chapter". Please correct me if I'm wrong and he's right, but I always thought a scene break (#) was all that's required for a POV change unless it's omni. Another recent piece of advice was that agents and publishers want works under 100K--and closer to 90K--from new writers. Doesn't it all depend on the manuscript, genre and the agent?

Blanket statements like these, if they're incorrect, can be harmful. I wish there was a comprehensive site out there that could shoot down or confirm this kind of "advice"...oh, wait! I'm on it right now! :D

What say you? Are this advice sound or should it be ignored?
I think you did exactly the right thing with the advice you received. You questioned it, and you asked for other opinions.
 

Katana

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Thanks, everyone. I think I'm just going to go with my gut and write the story I'm confortable with. Otherwise, a lot of stories out there would be awfully cookie-cutter.
 

becphish

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I'm so glad I found this thread. I had five betas. One read the whole thing, answered my questions, and offered more help. She's also a writer and one of my best friends (for over twenty years.) I've done the same for her. Another beta read a portion of the book and quit after offering advice on that portion. Another got swamped with work. Two others just never got back to me.
My folks are reading it, but not as true beta readers. (You can't always trust your parents to tell you the truth. Well, sometimes, but you never know.)
I just sent it to another friend and her husband since I was their beta when they wrote a joint memoir.
I've already written three drafts. Based on my one beta's advice, I fixed some things and started querying. I'd still take good advice--if I could get people to actually read the book. This process is frustrating enough without people committing and then never letting you know that they have to break their commitment. I know that these betas are doing this as a favor and I'm definitely grateful but as a writer, I need to know if they can't do it so I can find others in a timely manner.
(Apologies if this has already been said in the past 8 pages, and more apologies because my frustration level with this part is pretty high.)
 

mikeofmany

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Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread.

What genre is your work in? Are you looking for a general beta reader? Anything specific you feel you need in the feedback?

I might have some time coming up and if it's a genre I could read, you have an offer.

Mike

I'm so glad I found this thread. I had five betas. One read the whole thing, answered my questions, and offered more help. She's also a writer and one of my best friends (for over twenty years.) I've done the same for her. Another beta read a portion of the book and quit after offering advice on that portion. Another got swamped with work. Two others just never got back to me.
My folks are reading it, but not as true beta readers. (You can't always trust your parents to tell you the truth. Well, sometimes, but you never know.)
I just sent it to another friend and her husband since I was their beta when they wrote a joint memoir.
I've already written three drafts. Based on my one beta's advice, I fixed some things and started querying. I'd still take good advice--if I could get people to actually read the book. This process is frustrating enough without people committing and then never letting you know that they have to break their commitment. I know that these betas are doing this as a favor and I'm definitely grateful but as a writer, I need to know if they can't do it so I can find others in a timely manner.
(Apologies if this has already been said in the past 8 pages, and more apologies because my frustration level with this part is pretty high.)
 

UnbearableLight

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I've had pretty similar experience to most of you, I think. Most of it seems to result from a mis-match in expectations (which can happen no matter how clearly you communicate, I think) or from taking on more work than you have time for.

Two of my beta readers gave nice high-level reviews on my 3rd draft; alas, I'd asked for a more line-by-line approach. I'm still grateful, and the feedback was useful, but it just wasn't what I needed at that time. Another beta just said he liked the manuscript and that was basically the whole of the feedback.

I exchanged samples with another writer and found that we were way too far apart in our process; this person gave me what looked like an extremely rough first draft with mechanical errors in every paragraph. I wished them the best, but I already had a handful of people I was swapping with and unfortunately just couldn't devote that kind of time to copy-editing when what I wanted to do was trade crits on narrative structure and other story-level concerns. Maybe we'll be able to have a meeting of the minds in the future.

One beta reader said they didn't find my work interesting but would continue. I think that's because we are exchanging critiques, and they liked what I did with their sample and want me to finish the whole manuscript. Part of me is afraid that I will finish reading and reviewing this person's work and then they will vanish. I've got two others whose early sections I've critiqued and am still waiting almost three weeks for one and three months for the second later for any kind of feedback on my parts. I'm pretty sure that I won't see any critique from them.

Then I have two readers who I'm actively exchanging with, whose works are interesting and who seem to be interested in what I'm doing, and things are going pretty smoothly! The stars aligned. I feel incredibly lucky to have found them.
 

becphish

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Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread.

What genre is your work in? Are you looking for a general beta reader? Anything specific you feel you need in the feedback?

I might have some time coming up and if it's a genre I could read, you have an offer.

Mike

Thanks for your offer. Sure enough, I ended up missing your reply. Right now waiting on two readers, and still revising despite having submitted this thing around a bit already. Once I finish the latest read through, I may post for betas for humor/satire.
 

Mikaelra

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It's been very reassuring reading through this thread. I have had people flake, gotten bad advice and everything. But every now and then you find someone who is just great at giving feedback and is happy to help or do a trade. So I would not necessarily give up...

What I have now learned for sure is this: If I am in a vulnerable place with my writing, it is NOT a good idea to have a Beta reader who is not also a writer. I recently had someone read a few pages of mine and she had nothing much to say. She did not like it, but also had no useful advice on how to improve it. I only knew her from social media and so I asked her if she was a writer and she said no.

It's not universal... but people who write or who have seriously written in the past are usually much better beta readers...
 

mccardey

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It's not universal...but people who write or who have seriously written in the past are usually much better beta readers...

I'm not sure that's always true. I think I'd prefer a reader to a writer, all else being equal.

(I know you said it's not universal ;) )
 

shadowwalker

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I'm not sure that's always true. I think I'd prefer a reader to a writer, all else being equal.

Agree. Readers don't get into how they would do it, but with the right questions, can give valuable insight from the POV of the person who's going to buy your book.
 

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I think Beta readers are good up to a point whether they are fellow writers or not. And that point is where you're willing to take advice about what you're writing. If you have a Beta reader actually finish your book and send feedback, and then actually give a flip how it's working for you, hang on to them even if you don't agree with everything they said. You may never find anyone else willing.
 

MonsterTamer

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I agree with your definition of beta reading. A beta reader shouldn't have to do a LBL, fixing basic grammar mistakes, punctuation, etc. Some will do it, but if there's too much of it, it becomes exhausting.

I am reading chapter by chapter right now for a friend - very new author who has no clue what he's doing. Which is fine, we all start there. But it is exhausting. I have to force myself to read through chapters riddled with grammar errors, and while I try to fix as many as possible, my contribution is minimal. I often can't find the meaning of an entire paragraph through the poor phrasing and lack of any kind of polish. I would not consider what I'm doing beta reading - I'm a pre-alpha reader!

I recently sent the first few chapters of a completed MS I wrote almost a year ago, dredged up recently, and heavily revised. It's been a terrifying experience. I'm sure they hate it. I don't trust them to tell me the truth. I'm paranoid about it. But I don't have any other way at this point to fix this MS without some fresh eyes and alternate POV's.
 

Lauram6123

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I am reading chapter by chapter right now for a friend - very new author who has no clue what he's doing. Which is fine, we all start there. But it is exhausting. I have to force myself to read through chapters riddled with grammar errors, and while I try to fix as many as possible, my contribution is minimal. I often can't find the meaning of an entire paragraph through the poor phrasing and lack of any kind of polish. I would not consider what I'm doing beta reading - I'm a pre-alpha reader!

You know, I think it is more than fair of you to gently tell this person that you would be glad to continue to help them as long as they go through the corrections you have made in earlier chapters and then use that information to work on polishing the rest of their manuscript. There is no reason it should be a beta's job to fix things that the writer can fix on their own. You can simply say that because you are so bogged down by insubstantial errors, you are unable to focus on the bigger picture of the story, characters, etc.
 

TereLiz

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You know, I think it is more than fair of you to gently tell this person that you would be glad to continue to help them as long as they go through the corrections you have made in earlier chapters and then use that information to work on polishing the rest of their manuscript. There is no reason it should be a beta's job to fix things that the writer can fix on their own. You can simply say that because you are so bogged down by insubstantial errors, you are unable to focus on the bigger picture of the story, characters, etc.

Yeah, I've done this before, too. Compliment sandwich-style, of course. I always try to find something good to open with, and end on a positive, reassuring note. Writers at that stage get frustrated easily and want some kind of reason to go on. (They're obviously not at the point yet where you can't stop writing or you'll die.)

I'm always looking for the opposite; someone to tell me everything they hate about my ms, down to details like the color of the drapes in a room. I have a bad habit of trolling the one star reviews in amazon or goodreads to check out the quirky little things—sometimes super subjective, sometimes insightful—that people hate to read. Or maybe it's a good habit since it's made me take criticism less personally. My experiences with betas have been mostly positive, and even when it didn't go as planned, there was usually some feedback that made it worthwhile.
 

Earthling

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How much line editing (in terms of SPAG, word choice--the technical side of writing) do you give when beta-ing and expect from betas?

With my first novel, I had some betas that got so caught up in line edits that they didn't give me any feedback on characters, plot, etc. I kept prompting them but it was like pulling teeth. This time around I've specified that I don't want line-by-line feedback, just big picture stuff. I had my first feedback this morning. One email was a list of sentences the reader didn't like (a couple of typos, mostly just differences of style) and one was the document with word-choice edits in track changes. Neither of them said anything about the story.

I know it must sound like the MS is full of technical problems but it really isn't. The things they're pointing out are in the vein of "If I was writing this in my style, this is how I'd write this sentence..."

I'm wondering if *I'm* the one with the wrong expectations. Is line-editing something you expect from betas?
 

lianna williamson

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I think different betas are good at different types of feedback (and some probably aren't good at any of them!). Who are these betas? If you want "big picture" feedback, you'll probably need a beta who is either a writer or the kind of reader who thinks deeply about what s/he reads.

It might also help to send prompting questions about the kinds of things you're wondering about (although I recommend sending the questions after the betas are done reading, to avoid poisoning the well). It's easier to answer a question like, "Did you understand why Marlene decided to let the car roll into the lake?" than "What did you think of the book, overall?"

FWIW, my betas for my last book were:

-3 writers (all found through AW)
-1 voracious reader who also writes a review blog
-1 professional copy-editor
 
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