Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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Crusader

Re:

Mm, here's a thought: compare this piece to Oath of Swords, which very liberally put all the exposition in the character's head instead of a prologue.

Between the two, i honestly disliked the "character pauses to mull over the entire history of the world" tactic, far more than i might dislike pausing my headlong dash for Chapter One so that i can read a preface.

[trying not to smirk] And argh, while i didn't mind giggling politely at the preface, the new thought of Monty Python aping it is too much...
 

maestrowork

Re:

OK, if you believe the author is trying for humor, what would your critique be like now... does it work?

Let's do it again, assuming that the author is aiming for humor...
 

Crusader

Re:

All right; once more into the haven, dear friends...

* * *

The Testimony of Alrak was reportedly written by the last known survivor of a Nesda, a small haven in the foothills of the Frenas Mountains. Nesda's wards were incomplete when the Vex hit. The abhorrent, Mujalabrin, easily slipped into the haven and ravaged its inhabitants.

Not really funny, up till "the Vex hit". 'Vex' could be short for 'vexation', which is a funny play-on-words. Still, i rate this as serious.


Mujalabrin took a special interest in Nesda's only champion, Alrak the Bard. Alrak's talent was great, but his will was not. In a desperate attempt to save himself, Alrak offered to immortalize the abhorrent in epic versus. Amused by the idea, Mujalabrin agreed to keep the bard alive until he could write no more.

Funny, if the tone is mocking Alrak as being a cowardly sort who would barter anything to stay alive. However, there's a sinister, unfunny aspect of being locked in a tomb with a demon, forced to write to save one's life. Tossup.


Scholars estimate it took Alrak 115 years to complete his 125,925 page Testimony. Alrak exhausted his limited supply of ink within the first year of composition. The vast majority of it seems to have been written in blood. After approximately 105 years, The Testimony of Alrak encompassed every scrap of paper in Nesda. Tests confirm that the last 8760 pages were crafted from exquisitely tanned and extravagantly trimmed skin.

Funny. i might guess this is where reph fiinds the preface to be exaggerative, and where detante finds it to be overwritten. The details just sound absurd... 115 years? Ran out of ink? Such a precise number of pages? The emphasis "every scrap of paper"? (i'm wondering what the poor fellow used in the lavatory, then.) Tanned human skin, words written in blood? (hearkens to the Evil Dead movies and their farcical Necronomicon, the Book of the Dead).


The original copy of The Testimony of Alrak resides in a carefully warded vault in the Great Library of Kurth. Abhorrence lore experts have long clamored for access to the Testimony. While Master Tinus agrees that it could provide invaluable information, he refuses to release any portion of the original document. Instead, he has elected to have to have the original copy transcribed to warded vellum, infused with True Wood using ink infused with True Earth. No scribe has been allowed to work on more than 9 non-sequential pages. Despite these precautions, 68 of the 220 scribes working on the Testimony have since gone mad. While incidences of insanity are to be expected when working with abhorrence-related material, experts agree this is a higher percentage than usual.

Uneven/funny. The tone starts out straight, then has mirthful elements (someone pointed the overly complicated scribing process). The last sentence is rather punchy, it bloody well does sound like Monty Python or Pratchett.


Further transcriptions were halted after the scribe Paltis created duplicates of his work from memory, using ordinary ink and paper. Paltis made a small fortune when he sold his copies to an amateur collector. Shortly after his purchase, the collector murdered Paltis in the middle of the Bazaar. The collector was in berserk rage, screaming that Paltis was a liar and a thief. It took an arrow to the chest to stop the madman from killing innocent bystanders. A search of the collector's office uncovered 8 blank sheets of paper that radiating a lingering astral aura.

Inconclusive.. It could read as a satire or as a serious (if dubious) account. Either the effects of the Testament are being mocked, or they're being played up as potent.


As of this writing, only 1800 of the 125,925 pages of The Testimony of Alrak have been reproduced. Master Tinus has made it clear that no further transcriptions will be created as long as he is in charge of the Library.

Straight. If it's supposed to be funny, i'm not seeing a joke. Mainly comes across as plain old exposition.


Chapter One

I have no fear of the underground. I spent my childhood under the mountains of Kurth. Usually I find comfort beneath the shelter of solid stone. But the halls of Kurth echo with vitality. There is a restless silence about this place. It is not the empty hush of a forgotten tomb. There is a palpable sense of malice lurking in this silence.

This utterly makes it too difficult for me to call the whole piece humour. When i first read it, i was hit by the POV transition, but it's more than that now; i see that part of the shock was that the elements that made me chuckle are gone. This feels straight, serious, and honest.


I was nine years of age when I first told my father of my wish to search for lost havens. In a futile attempt to dissuade me from that path, he reserved a three-page excerpt of the Testimony of Alrak for my edification. Given the documents reputation, he must have called in more than one favor to obtain it.

Since we've seen the "effects" of the Testimony in the preface, it's really hard to laugh at the thought of a child being driven mad. The father's action is sobering and even offensive. It could interpreted as black humour, maybe... but as it stands, i find it straight.


As chilling as Alrak's account is, it did not prepare me for my first contact with a living abhorrent. The estimation that this is a young abhorrent only deeps my self-deprecation. I can only assume that every member of the party is now marked.

Straight.


While I cannot be certain that my own faculties have not been destroyed, it appears my husband's mind is now a devil's playground because of my audacity. I should have taken his council when he suggested we return to town. But my pride was not content to face the condescension of Councilman Stark with the paltry amount of information we had collected. Thanks to me, most party members are severely injured, many are trying to kill one another, and the some are missing. My hubris may well be the destruction of us all.

97.3% straight. Thanks to reph, i can't take Councilman Stark seriously. Otherwise, this is a person confessing their sins; i don't see any humour in that (melodrama, yes; humour, no).

* * *

Overall score: i have no idea. i see the humour, but it would need a rewrite to truly be captured. The drama (melodrama?) stands out without a rewrite, Conan be damned.

And i still like it, but i'm starting to feel that the horse has been flogged halfway into mulch. i really, really want to move on to find out what happens next, to see if the drama progresses or falls apart.
 

Gala

weird thread

I am scrolling through these long analyses, not interested. Nothing personal. I wish they were in SYW or their own thread. Saves the wrist.

It's Uncle's thread. To my mind, it's his thang.

Just an fyi. Now I'm going to bed. Will check back next year in prayer of Uncle stuff.

Happy Holidays from the Cosmic forces.
 

sc211

Re:

I agree. I'm sure Uncle Jim's glad he got people looking closely at openings and seeing what works and what doesn't, and why, but it's taken over the thread and deserves one of its own.
 

HConn

Base Standard

Finally able to reply after several crazy days--

What happened to my 12/22 post? Can someone explain it to me?

Thus my statement was clearly describing a hypothetical, potential attitude that i was warning against.

Since you were actually replying to someone, you shouldn't have used quotes as though implying that the person had said those words.

... i might compare it to the example someone mentioned of house-building. There's a certain base standard that houses are designed to meet--four walls, a roof, and a door. Then a notch above that--water, sewer, wiring. Then a notch above that--air conditioning (heating and cooling), appliances.

In that light, no matter how unique the end result may be, the actual product is built up to meet certain standards along a range of progression from start to finish. Miss or mangle a stage--"Doors are optional, aren't they?"--and you have something that will strike a discerning mind as incomplete.

But I would suggest that most of the folks on this forum do not have a realistic grip on the "base standard."



Finally, Uncle Jim, this latest turn of the thread was your idea (and thanks to detante for jumping in and providing a snippet; she knows, from another list, that I'm up to my armpits in in-laws right now. Somebody kill me. When I saw Jim's challenge, I groaned. I knew I'd have to post something, but I was at a loss as to where I could find it and when I could find the time.)

But since this latest twist was your idea, what do you think of what's come of it? And what did you intend the exercise to illustrate?

What I get out of it is this: Don't bother with the Share Your Work forum, because the crits you get here have nothing to do with publishability.

-----------------------​

And on that note, I want to sincerely wish everyone here a happy holidays. And this Santa is exhausted. Good night.
 

reph

Re: Digression?

I'm sure Uncle Jim's glad he got people looking closely at openings and seeing what works and what doesn't, and why, but it's taken over the thread and deserves one of its own.

We could all delete our posts when the discussion is over.
 

maestrowork

Re: weird thread

Gala, it was Uncle Jim's idea that we posted something and did the analysis. Sorry you find that uninteresting.

But if people want us to stop, or move the discussions to another thread, that's cool. We're here to illustrated some of the analysis Uncle Jim was doing, applying to either published or unpublished work. I think they have merits. But if Uncle Jim objects to the hijacking, let's move it somewhere.
 

Crusader

Re: weird thread

7/26/04 - JimMorcombe wondered if Grisham was breaking the rules that James D Macdonald recommends.

7/27/04 - Mr. Macdonald agreed to read a few Grisham works, read them, then the topic was interrupted.

12/21/04 - Mr. Macdonald conscientiously revived the question and provided a once-over for The Street Lawyer, in which he demonstrated his thoughts on whether Grisham followed or violated any rules. Discussion ensued. maestrowork wondered how critical the discussion would have been, if the work had been an unpublished item from an unheralded writer. Mr. Macdonald did not comment. maestrowork later mentioned a new thread in SYW so that board members could critique using Mr. Macdonald's line-by-line method.

12/22/04 maestrowork, in response to a comment from detante, repeated his earlier question. HConn responded by suggesting that board members are ill-qualified to critique a work. Mr. Macdonald responded by suggesting that two pages of a work could be posted in this thread for a line-by-line critique, though he didn't specify whether "we" meant himself and HConn, or himself and any other board member in general.

And from that, several members proceeded to analyze several works, leading to the current complaint that the thread has been occluded, obstructed, halted, derailed, sent on a tangent, or whathaveyou.

* * *

i observe...

-There was indeed a thread made in SYW for the purpose of line-by-line critique.

-Mr. Macdonald was the person to suggest line-by-line critique in this thread--his thread.

-In this context, HConn seems to have a low opinion of opinions other than his own.

-The original question which started this tangent, was answered a long time ago: Mr. Macdonald apparently doesn't find that his recommended rules are broken by John Grisham's writing in The Street Lawyer.

-maestrowork's question was likewise answered: This group does not seem to critique differently if the work in question is published or unpublished, or if the author is well-known or unknown.
 

maestrowork

Re: Base Standard

Great summary, Crusader.

There IS a thread, currently in SYW, for anyone interested to do line-by-line critiques. We can expand that to "published" or "unpublished" work (instead of just members' WIPs) if you want. But so far, no one is biting...

Or we can just let this die a horrible death here. It's fine by me.

I think it's a fun exercise for both the critters and the crittees. I certainly learned a few things about analyzing whether something "works" or "not works" based on a reader's analysis, instead of wearing my writer's glasses.
 

sc211

Re: Digression?

No offense to anyone was meant. It just reminded me of when in college, when a couple of the other students would get into a discussion between themselves that was valid and informative for those interested, but took away from class time.

But of course, in cyberspace there is no time, and again, like any good teacher, I'm sure Uncle Jim's glad to have inspired it all.

Merry Christmas.
 

maestrowork

Re: weird thread

If you look closely into this whole thread, though, you'd notice it's hardly just Uncle Jim's lectures and homework. There were lively, off-the-wall and on a tangent discussions.

However, point taken about the "a few students going off on sidebar discussions, disrupting the class" feeling, even though I don't agree. And until Uncle Jim complains about us running amuck, I'll continue to be the naughty boy.
 

pencilone

Re: weird thread

Merry Christmas Everyone!

I'm wondering if anyone managed to write some words (or any words) on their novel today... Not me though...:| Maybe I'm forgiven because at least I thought about it?:b

(HConn, I cannot help feeling sorry for you, but keep tight, it's almost over;) )

Best Wishes and A Happy New Year,

Pencilone
 

HConn

Re: Cosmic Writer

Pencil, I wish it was almost over--we're having a five-week visit.

Anyway, I hope we don't delete all our posts at the end of the discussion. I would hope they would stay for the edification of late-comers. This thread still comes up as the top result when I google the words learn writing.

Something that's been troubling me about the way we talk about writing and the way we examine each other's work, is that the conversations seem based on things that don't affect a book's publishability or sales.

I find it difficult to examine these excerpts from successful works and continue to worry about what POV I'm using or whether I'm following some rule or other.

Cripes, I want to take part in this thread, but the loud family is shouting at each other over some card game they're playing. It's impossible to think around here.

Let me leave with one more disjointed comment. Uncle Jim's initial examination of Grisham's work was not about finding the flaws in it, or about pointing out all the things it was trying to do but failing. It was about the effect the writing had on him. If a sentence was a bit mysterious or if it left some questions unanswered, the author was assumed to be creating suspense.

When others critique, they talk about how much information they don't have or annoyingly vague something is. (I'm being deliberately general because I don't want to point fingers at specific people.)

I'd spend more time thinking about this, if I didn't have to go make three different Christmas dinners for our visiting fussy eaters. :( But I think we need to rethink our assumptions about what makes one piece of writing work for readers and what makes another fail.

Lastly, I've only been able to read here intermittently and post even less. If my posts seem terse, it's because of time and space pressures, not because of anything going on here.

Happy Holidays.
 

detante

Re: Cosmic Writer

I understand how some would be uninterested in the analysis, even if it was done at Uncle Jim's request. I also agree that Uncle Jim's analysis highlighted the things that worked and explained why, instead of trying to re-write. As a reader, I think Grisham's was the best of the works posted.

HC, hang in there buddy.

Happy holidays to all!
Jen
 

maestrowork

Re: weird thread

In all fairness I think I tried to do it right -- highlighting what I think works and what doesn't, instead of saying "this should be rewritten this way or that. And the POV is wrong here, and the word choice is icky there..." I take offense at the suggestion that just because something is published, we should only look for the good parts. I think we can learn a lot from what "doesn't work" even in published work. For example, it's good to see how the excerpt of "The Street Lawyer" works, and how Patterson made mistakes in "Sam's Letters to Jennifer."
 

detante

Re: weird thread

In all fairness I think I tried to do it right

I agree and said as much in an earlier post.

Myself, I don't think we should only point out the good parts in published works. There are plenty of books in print that make me scratch my head wondering why they wasted the paper to print them.

What I take from this exercise:
-Even published writers make mistakes.
-Nothing pleases everyone.
-Anything can be re-written.

There are lots of wrong ways to write a story, but no right way.

Jen
 

Crusader

Re: weird thread

There are lots of wrong ways to write a story, but no right way.

Hm. i can see where that is coming from. Yet i don't think i'd comfortable with telling that to a writer who asked me for advice. [pondering] But what would i prefer to say? Errrrr...

"Aim your pen at the hearts and minds of your audience. You'll know from the response of the majority, if your aim was true."

Blah, this is as hard as it looks. i just don't cotton to vaguely telling someone "there isn't a right way", because to me, intuitively, there is a right way. The right way is... composed of... sidestepping all the wrong ways... and... the wrong way is... composed of... missing the right way.

(Whoa, i just channeled William Shatner...)
 

HConn

Re: Cosmic Writer

What I take from this exercise:

We put too much attention on things that don't matter very much.
 

Writing Again

Re: Cosmic Writer

There is only one right way to write a story and only one wrong way.

The right way to write a story is to obtain and maintain the reader's interest from the first page to the last page and still want more when it is done. There are many many tools with which a writer can do this, some writers master many of these tools, some only a few of them. Few if any master all of them.

What separates a commercial writer from other types of writers is that the commercial writer seeks to keep as many people as possible interested in the story while other writers seek the interest of a smaller, more specialized audience. One is neither better than the other nor easier than the other, but they do provide a definition of success and they pose the question, "Does the work that fails to please its target audience but pleases another audience a success or a failure?" (Is Ray Bradbury a failed science fiction writer? Or a successful story teller who raised the genre up a notch?)

The wrong way to tell a story is to bore the audience. One of the most common faults is lack of understanding of what makes a good story. The other most common fault is telling the story poorly. Oddly grammar, the first thing attacked or defended in a novel, is of no importance if either of the first two fail.
 

Writing Again

Re: weird thread

I don't see a parallel between this thread going on a tangent and a classroom.

For one thing to me everything relates to writing whether it is the crumbs at the bottom of a cookie jar or the light of a star yet to be discovered. You can't veer far from the subject, you can just take it one way, then another, and bring it back.

For another unlike a classroom you can always scroll past anything that is not of interest.

Last but not least I have never had a teacher who could maintain my interest in a subject. Teachers want your undivided attention until something sparks your interest and you ask a question about it, then they recoil in horror because they never studied the subject enough to be able to provide an answer. I always found the disruptive elements to be far more interesting and educational.

So far one of the most encouraging aspects to me is that I have seldom found a post in this thread that did not take me longer to think about than it did to read.
 

maestrowork

Re: weird thread

We put too much attention on things that don't matter very much.

If stilted dialogue, confusing narratives, cliches, verb tense changes, poor character development, etc. don't matter much, may I ask, what matters to you?

Why bother being a writer if we find those things "don't matter"?
 

Crusader

Re: Re:

Well, maestrowork, you have to bear in mind that most of the folks on this forum do not have a realistic grip on the 'base standard'. They're people who think they know better but don't, so the crits you get here have nothing to do with publishability. They aren't harmful, necessarily, except that it encourages people to focus on the wrong elements.

Of course, by implication, i know best what is publishable, i know what the correct elements are... and so I would like to focus people's energy and attention on things that will be truly helpful. i mean, you all just are putting too much energy on things that don't matter very much.
 
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