bloat all dogs can develope it

Bloat is definitely scary stuff. It's one of the things about raising a dog that makes me neurotic.

As informative as the articles were, that first one upset me (not your fault, obviously—you didn't write it) when it mentioned the research with trying to recreate bloat in dogs in the lab (spoiler: they couldn't). I have a very weak stomach for that kind of thing. So, just a warning for anyone else who might, as well.

Pro dog trainer here. This is an issue I've followed for close on 40 years. I've never had it in my own dogs, but friends have experienced it.

What's pretty clear is that the tendency is inherited (very definitely runs in some breeds/crosses, and certain bloodlines within those breeds), and that it primarily (but not exclusively) affects dogs that have a deep but narrow body shape. Size/weight is probably not a real factor (Standard Poodles and Afghans are tall for their weight, but there's not much dog under all that hair).

One theory is that the structural 'fastenings' of the bloating stomach are weaker than normal. Personally I suspect it may be a sort of mis-aimed reflex (whether due to poor 'fastenings' or some other malformation), where rather than pushing contents into the intestine, the stomach contracts the wrong way and as a result flops over.

Being inherited is why various laboratory experiments have failed to induce the problem. The 'risk factors' as identified are really risk factors only for dogs that are already at risk due to their genetics. (And yes, it does affect mutts, if they're unlucky in their ancestors.)

Incidentally, the problem likely got into Rottweilers via a German Shepherd crossbreeding done in Europe (40+ years ago), which altered the body shape in some lines. To my certain knowledge the problem has been in GSD since at least the 1950s (we owned an affected GSD born in 1955, sired by a German import -- ours was lucky, and survived it).

There's a suspicion of Afghan crosses behind Standard Poodles, come to that... most purebred dogs are not as simon-pure as we'd like to think (especially in Europe back during WW2), and sometimes a visit to the woodpile is the source of a particular trait or issue.

If you want to avoid bloat, best to choose a seldom-affected breed, and a bloodline that historically has not produced it (as far as is known)... dogs are never 100% predictable, but you can somewhat stack your odds. But outside of the handful of breeds with a higher incidence, bloat isn't common enough to worry about. (Higher on my list of concerns would be epilepsy and temperaments that can't handle stress. Which frequently go hand in hand.)

Remember we have 80+ million dogs in the U.S. alone -- if even 1% have some issue, that's a lot of dogs (and that's what will make the news), but the odds for the majority are still good.

Reziac said:

The 'risk factors' as identified are really risk factors only for dogs that are already at risk due to their genetics. (And yes, it does affect mutts, if they're unlucky in their ancestors.)

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Trouble being, many of us probably don't know a lot about our dogs' lineage. I adopted mine when she was abandoned at 6wks. We think she's a border collie mixed with maybe some kind of spaniel. But for us, it's just better safe than sorry, so we try to reduce our risk factors.

One thing I'm not sure of is that some sources recommend NOT feeding from a raised bowl... however, we were told at one point that it's better for their necks to eat from a raised bowl... everything in the world is a Catch-22.

The notion of using a raised bowl came about from some of the leggier breeds that had wound up with short/upright shoulders like a donkey, and consequently cannot easily touch their noses to the ground. I expect it does no harm (unlike with horses), but is it a natural eating posture? Not really. Still, I've seen no difficulties from it, and mine eat at every height from ground level to head-high (have to hang some feed buckets shoulder-high to the dog, or the males pee in 'em).

The main reason dogs gulp food is from being too hungry -- as puppies so it becomes habit, or from being fed just one meal a day as adults. (And a very few have no governor or are wired greedy, but that's not typical -- tho we see it more in spayed/neutered dogs.) Left to their own devices and fed free-choice (which is the most natural for the dog), most dogs are casual nibblers that will eat some in the morning and some in the afternoon (hence twice daily feeding is fine) plus a little now and then -- without gobbling and gulping. Wild canids eat mostly mice and other small critters, which is an all-day affair, not a single meal. The idea that they gorge once a day came from the behavior of wolves in winter, when they're largely starving for lack of small game.

Can't help you with an unknown lineage, of course ... but with a border collie mix (or maybe Aussie mix, since that could look similar to what you describe) the risk of bloat is negligible. Epilepsy is far more prevalent (but will generally manifest by age 3). What I would do, tho, is get an MDR1 test done, so you know whether the dog can properly metabolize ivermectin, related drugs, and possibly some forms of general anesthsia. Note that heterozygous dogs can react as partially affected (eg. can handle a heartworm dose of ivermectin, but not a general-wormer dose which is about 100x more).

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Canine/Genetic_Disease/MDR1.asp

MDR1 may be linked to the longhaired gene in some herding breeds with multiple coat types (appears this is the case with 'fluffies' in Corgis).

As to the silken windhound and longhaired whippet, it is now known that they originated as a Sheltie cross, hence both the long coats and the MDR1 gene.

Reziac said:

Still, I've seen no difficulties from it, and mine eat at every height from ground level to head-high (have to hang some feed buckets shoulder-high to the dog, or the males pee in 'em).

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Ewww.

Maddie's not a gulper. Sometimes, we have to trick her into eating (because we hide pills in her food). She often just takes a couple of bites and then wanders off, skipping probably every fourth meal. When she is hungry, she mostly just leisurely licks the food into her mouth.

My concern is that she's constantly belching. She has allergies and licks her feet all the time and, I guess, swallows a lot of air when she does.

What I would do, tho, is get an MDR1 test done, so you know whether the dog can properly metabolize ivermectin, related drugs, and possibly some forms of general anesthsia. Note that heterozygous dogs can react as partially affected (eg. can handle a heartworm dose of ivermectin, but not a general-wormer dose which is about 100x more).

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Well, she's seven, so I think that ship might have sailed. She's been on Heartgard most of her life. Is it something that you find out about early on, or can it just randomly pop up later in life?

for interest, here she is:


(She does not like having her picture taken.)

Viewed objectively, dogs are disgusting creatures

Sounds like her eating pattern is perfectly normal. A lot of well-fed dogs skip meals or even a day or two -- their body isn't hungry so they only eat what they really need. BTW she's a pretty girl. Border Collie and spaniel is probably a good guess.

As to the belching, what are you feeding her?? Two causes I've seen are high fibre (over 4%) especially as potatoes or beet pulp, and raw chicken or fish (probably because that significantly raises the bacteria load in the mouth and stomach).

I have NEVER seen a legitimate 'food allergy' in an immunologically-normal dog. What I have seen are deficiencies that mimic allergies -- usually manifesting as itching.

As to other 'allergies' (which may really be irritations rather than actual allergies) occasionally grass or pollen from ornamentals (especially those from South America) can cause this; grass can notably make their feet itch (grass can shed a lot of microfibres that stick to the skin). Frex, there's something that blooms in August in the San Fernando Valley that makes all the downwind dogs sneeze and itch. And the pollen from Bermuda grass can be really irritating.

But dietary deficiencies make this worse (the skin is already stressed, so any little thing irritates it). Frex, a lot of 'flea allergies' magically vanish with an improvement in the diet's fat content.

If she hasn't had any issues with Heartgard in all this time, that ain't gonna happen -- this is something they're born with. Affected dogs show symptoms quickly, and carriers in no more than a few months. Otherwise, ivermectin is about as safe as a drug can get. My dogs get a full wormer dose twice a month (turns out once a month allows some breaks in heartworm protection). And I know a guy who took a full dose EVERY DAY for months while he was working in the Amazon, to avoid contracting river blindness... with no ill effects.

She's definitely well fed. We're trying to get her to lose weight right now because of some hip issues. She's also getting Adequan injections.

I've taken her to an allergist. We don't think she has any food allergies. I've tried limited ingredient diets, vegetarian diets, raw diets... food never seemed to make a difference. The allergist thought she might just be allergic to the environment. The allergies have persisted through five moves, so it's regional rather than specific plants in our landscaping. Her flairs seem to be somewhat seasonal.

She eats pretty well. We think her dog food is a high quality. We're feeding Merrick Grain Free Buffalo and Sweet Potato mixed with rotating flavors of their grain-free canned food. It took a while to find a food she would reliably eat. I would have starved her down to what I wanted her to eat like the books say to, but it's really the only sane way to get her to take pills. She gets salmon oil in the mornings, and a few Zuke's training bits along with her glucosamine treat.

Her allergies are confined right now to licking her feet and ear infections that we can keep at bay by cleaning them with OPI Otic solution twice a week during the rough seasons, but that's only with taking two Zyrtex a day. Before she was on the Zyrtec, she was chewing up her legs and bloodying her armpits and pulling big patches of fur out of her rump.

ETA: Sorry missed this:

BTW she's a pretty girl. Border Collie and spaniel is probably a good guess.

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Thanks! She gets lots of compliments out and about.

The glucosamine is probably what's causing her itching; it's a well-known and fairly common side effect (in both dogs and humans). Friend put her dog on it and he itched so bad that he got to where he was pulling bloody chunks out of his hide, and gnawing on his feet. Took him off it and the problem went away. As to whether it helps joint issues, the research is at best inconclusive. And dogs may not know placebos, but they will react to human expectations.

Here's where I should remark that I used to manufacture custom dog food for my kennel (don't now cuz I can get near-enough off the shelf)... based on biochemical research (I went to university in biochem), not the weird ideas all over the net.

That's probably a decent diet (red meat, lots of protein and fat -- which is why she feels satisfied enough to be a nibbler; not too much fibre) but as a FYI:

Grain-free is not necessarily a good idea. The wild diet of small rodents includes the digestive contents, and what might those be? Largely seeds and grain in a 'cooked' (digested) form, roughly 30% by weight. There's been some interesting research on grain-based vs grain-free in working sled dogs, and the result was... on a grain-free diet, they simply can't get enough calories, and starvation became an issue. -- Know what the Fish & Game dept. uses to rehab the starving wolves they pick up every winter? Purina Dog Chow.

The salmon oil and/or sweet potatoes are probably causing the belching, but I'd bet on the salmon oil. -- Rosemary is a gastric irritant, but far as I can tell no one puts enough in any diet to irritate the gut; it's mostly there to look good on the label.

The problem with taking weight off the dog for bad hips (other than when they're obese) is that a large proportion of the lost weight will be muscle and connective tissue, which can make the joints more unstable than before, and therefore more painful (if she has pain -- most dogs with bad hips don't even notice it). She'll be best off when she's in good normal flesh, ribs well-covered (no 'dents' between the ribs, and definitely none along the backbone) but not mushy. Also, she'll age better than if she's thin.

I've found the best approach for mungy ears is washing 'em out with plain water every day without fail -- it can take six months or more but this usually gets rid of the problem (unless there's an autoimmune issue at work, in which case you do it for life). I know folks who've used contact lens solution with good results. Probably just doing the mechanical cleaning every day, regardless of what you use, is the real trick.

BTW I've raised over 2500 dogs across 45 years (current average healthy lifespan is 14 years), including 59 show champions plus a number of working titles... here's one of 'em:



And this is the conversation I've repeatedly had at shows:

Them: Your dogs are always in such good condition and their coats are great. I wish my dogs looked half that good. Whatever are you feeding? What do you put on their coats??

Me: cheapo grocery brand, and absolutely nothing on the coat.

Them: OMG, I could never feed that, how horrible!

Me: You just got done telling me how my dogs look so much better than yours, so what's the problem??