Help me with my pitbull prejudice, please

Perks

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At the outset, let me say that I actually very much believe pitbulls have been maligned by bad press after high profile bad owners and training have turned out some very dangerous animals that have made very sad headlines. But every pitbull I've ever known has been a very sweet (if slightly dopey) dog. I am generally not afraid of pitbulls.

Also, I love dogs, although since I don't want to own one I'm often cast as someone who doesn't like dogs. I love dog faces and dog personalities and dog stories and loving on other people's dogs. I just don't want the work of having one of my own.

My kids used to be unilaterally afraid of dogs, but have gotten over a blanket fear. But now my neighbor has a rescue pit that is causing me (and them) some concern. The dog's name is Sirra and he's beautiful, but one of the of the more intimidating-looking type - little eyes, big head, serious demeanor. And he doesn't listen at all.

We live on the edge of a small horse farm and my twelve year old takes riding lessons there and we all share a common private road, which is great for strolling. I met Sirra once while walking with my friend and her dog, Buddy, who is an American Dingo. Buddy was leashed and Sirra was not and it was a very alert and tense meeting, but not obviously aggressive. Neither dog growled or even showed teeth, but every muscle on them was strung tight and the curiosity was intense. Sirra's owner called to him over and over, but to no avail. She had to come get him and I have to admit that walking away with him still off leash was a little unnerving.

A few weeks ago, Sirra bounded at my oldest daughter (15) and blocked her path. She's my most flinchy kid. Sirra was again not obviously aggressive, but he stood lock-legged and insistent in her path and she was afraid to go past him. Sirra's owner came and got him out of the way. My littlest has had the most interaction with him and was at first very afraid of him, but has learned to be firm with him during her time in the barn. The pit and the horses apparently get along great, but the dog is aggressive with cats and smaller animals.

So I got to meet him today, on leash, with his owner, my neighbor. He has to be be physically ground into a sitting position that he will not hold. He seemed to like to be pet, but there was no tail-wagging or any of the regular cues that seem friendly. I think I read somewhere that pits have different or muted cues, but I could be misremembering.

ANyway, I don't want to be afraid of this dog. Especially when he hasn't done anything. There is almost no chance that his owners will keep him on a leash and I'm reluctant to get on grumpy terms with them. Any thoughts? Any advice?
 

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I'm seeing red flags all over this dog's behavior, pit bull or not. I'm also seeing bigger red flags over the behavior of the owners, who sound uninterested in training or controlling the animal, and who don't seem to be taking these issues seriously. (How did they get their hands on a rescue? Was this a legitimate group? Something smells iffy, here...)

If I were you, I'd trust my instincts, here. Caution is advised. Possibly pepper spray, and a speed-dial on animal control.
 

robjvargas

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I'm with Pitdreamer. I rescued a pitbull. Have her myself. Yes, pits have a bad rap. Partly, I think, it's because a pit's instinct to have that "thrash" maneuver once they bite.

That dog, Sirra, has NOT "done nothing." That kind of behavior, I would classify as aggressive, just as you did. And go with that.

If your community has a leash law, get the police (or animal control) to enforce it. Start there.
 

Osulagh

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You should talk to the owner. Tell them your concerns that that you don't wish to feel that way. Work something out with them. What I'd be scared of is them not listening--if they have not been trained at all, it can be a problem with owner-dog relationship. Like Bright said, regardless of breed, that's a red-flag to me.

I've been around pitbulls and rottweilers all my life. Several of my friend's growing up had them, my cousin is a big fan (a few of his are some of the best dogs I've known), and a few of my close friends have them. No problems with them. I still will reach for my knife when a pitbull gets close--rottweiler, not so much especially if they've been trained. Yes, I'm afraid of them because they are more capable of violence than other dogs. If they're mixed, then less likely, but still more than most dogs.

Training and rearing correctly will curve off the violence, but it is not for certain--because one of main jobs for a dog is protection. Just being nice to the people around them is not enough to calm my nerves. Unless that dog has been conditioned to not attack under any circumstance (like my cousin teaches), I won't trust it.
 
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Wilde_at_heart

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I wonder if some of the bias vs pitbulls come from the sort of people who tend to have pitbulls. IE - the sort who don't leash them, insist (at least in my own neighbour's case - it's leashed but it's a lunger) that it's a 'good dog' and yet ... you don't feel comfortable setting boundaries with them. Because there's something about how they are/react, etc. that makes it difficult to ask sensible things of them for whatever reason. Because if they 'got it' they wouldn't be like that.

Like what Brightdreamer said, this has red flags. I don't like the attitude of expecting kids to alter their behaviour around dogs, with the exception of if they tease animals. Beyond that, it is the owner's responsibility. That this dog is aggressive with cats, and the owner can't immediately get the animal to behave are very bad signs too.

Maybe have a friendly chat with animal control about what your options are, what the city/county by-laws are. Chat with the horse farm owner - try to get people on your side if you can.

But no, this isn't a prejudice on your part.
 

mirandashell

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I have to agree. The dog is showing territorial behaviour that the owners should be dealing with.

Trust your instincts on this one.
 

jimmymc

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You should be wary of any Pit Bull, unless you know the history of the dog. People who breed dogs for fighting choose the most aggressive dogs for breeding, hoping to produce a really mean fighting dog.

Not all pits are aggressive and can be great dogs, unfortunately some are bred to fight and kill.

In the last five years two children have been attacked by pit bulls in my area—one survived, although severely mauled. The other did not.
 

cmhbob

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This is not a prejudice, Perks. I think you're reading the cues correctly. And I think you'd read them this way if the dog were a Heinz mutt, a German Shepherd, or a chow. He's being way to "passively" aggressive.
 

Perks

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Chat with the horse farm owner - try to get people on your side if you can.

The dog's owner is the horse farm owner.

Shit. I don't like this at all. I was really hoping, for once, for a scolding from you guys, telling me I was being silly.

I talked to my oldest after I wrote the initial OP and I didn't realize that Sirra had growled at her when he blocked her path the one time they crossed. Truthfully, I don't see him much (the dog) but I worry about my youngest being at the barn with him on Wednesdays during her lesson.

The owner is a bit touchy on quite a number of things, so I can't imagine that this would go over well. At all. Shit.

I wonder if I just have a talk with animal control if they'll have anything to advise.
 

DeleyanLee

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As the owner of a rescued pittie, I have to agree that you need to listen to your gut here. Talk to the owners, especially if you've been on good or at least polite terms with them in the past. Your safety and your family's can't be ignored and if they won't do something about their dog, you're going to have to do what you can to protect yourselves. Very sorry to say.
 

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I sure hope this gets resolved.

If you do contact the owner, perhaps put it in writing.
 

Perks

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The hardest part is the horse lessons. My youngest goes there every Wednesday. (And when I say "goes there" really that only means about 200 yards from our house.)

I've never seen Sirra on our end of the area, but I was less than comforted by my meeting of him today. I can't remember meeting such an aloof dog before. I mean, I've met blatantly unfriendly dogs in my time, but this dog was just unusual in his behavior.

There are four other large dogs on our road (we're all back here on a divided up family farm) that are left unleashed. I have no trouble with them. In fact, they are all quite lovable and I enjoy getting to see them here and there. Jimmy is a gorgeous black lab and apparently he gave Sirra the what-for when Sirra got in his way.

Sirra's owner say that he's not been terribly dominant with the other dogs he's come across. Is this any reliable insight into his demeanor?
 

mccardey

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I think, in a nutshell, Perks, you're going to have to choose between Sirra and Kids and just wear the guilt about prejudice either way.
 

robjvargas

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The dog's owner is the horse farm owner.

Shit. I don't like this at all. I was really hoping, for once, for a scolding from you guys, telling me I was being silly.

I talked to my oldest after I wrote the initial OP and I didn't realize that Sirra had growled at her when he blocked her path the one time they crossed. Truthfully, I don't see him much (the dog) but I worry about my youngest being at the barn with him on Wednesdays during her lesson.

The owner is a bit touchy on quite a number of things, so I can't imagine that this would go over well. At all. Shit.

I wonder if I just have a talk with animal control if they'll have anything to advise.

This sounds like trouble brewing to me. If the dog has not actively caused trouble, Animal Control is probably unable to do much. But they may have some valuable advice for you, I agree. At least speak to them. If you think it's worth the trouble (I think it is) file a complaint.

At least that would put everything on record. And, maybe, everyone on notice.
 

Osulagh

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I'd still talk to the owner about it. If they're good people and worth caring for, they'll reason with you--they should very well know the possible problems they have on their hands. But if they're not willing to work or reason with you, they're not people to care about, IMHO.

Beforehand, call Animal Control for more information and what to do. But still, talk to the owner. Nothing good will happen if you don't talk to them.
 

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Put bulls are some of the friendliest, sweetest, greatest dogs imaginable.

The problem is they are also incredibly powerful. When the (far more likely to bite) cocker spaniel latches onto someone it's a painful bite. When a pit bull does the same it can be a tragedy.

And I hate to agree with everyone else, but that behavior you're describing is not normal dog behavior nor normal pit bull behavior by any means. I would not be freaking out, but I would certainly be wary, and discussing this with animal control might at least give you some options though I'm not sure they would be.

One question – is this pitbull neutered or intact? If it's an intact male, I would be more concerned than if it is not.

But before you get to wigged out about this, remember that a calm demeanor has a positive effect on dogs, including pit bulls. You don't want to create a situation where you're always nervous around this dog and acting afraid of it.
 

mccardey

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You don't want to create a situation where you're always nervous around this dog and acting afraid of it.

Really, really difficult to get kids to stay calm around dogs that are frightening them. It should be possible to ask that the dog be shut in when the child is at her lessons, just as a favour - and that the dog be controlled (not just leashed, but yanno - under control as well) in the street just as normal behaviour. But it doesn't sound a lot like this is going to happen.
 

elinor

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Red flags all over the place.

In the Ozarks, my mother explained to me that everyone kept a gun by the front door specifically to deal with dogs that neighbors let run around off leash. For personal protection, and for protection of the farm animals. Said "sweet darling doggies" that were then caught trying to kill the farm critters or attacking the farm dog, promptly would disappear ne'er to be seen again.

The dog sounds territorial, and I feel nervous just reading about its behavior. Remember it's not really the loud barking shrieking dogs that you want to watch out for, but the quiet ones that are just watching and waiting. This dog sounds like it doesn't really view humans as worth listening to, or LIKING.

I REALLY don't like that the dog growled at your kid. To me that's a warning that she's not doing what it wants her to do (which is likely leave its territory because it sees her as an invader), and that eventually it will decide it needs to establish control of the situation - and her.
 

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Really, really difficult to get kids to stay calm around dogs that are frightening them. It should be possible to ask that the dog be shut in when the child is at her lessons, just as a favour - and that the dog be controlled (not just leashed, but yanno - under control as well) in the street just as normal behaviour. But it doesn't sound a lot like this is going to happen.
Yeah, I get that. This is a really difficult situation.
 

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One question – is this pitbull neutered or intact? If it's an intact male, I would be more concerned than if it is not.
I'm not sure. Since he was rescued, I think from a shelter, he's probably fixed.

But before you get to wigged out about this, remember that a calm demeanor has a positive effect on dogs, including pit bulls. You don't want to create a situation where you're always nervous around this dog and acting afraid of it.

I'm not really worried about myself. I almost never see the dog and I have kept calm when I have. It's my girls I worry about. They can be quite flinchy and nervous around big dogs (and you're right, of course, smaller dogs and especially certain breeds of smaller dogs can be more snappy, for sure, but that's a nuance that's hard to get through to young people who haven't been around animals much.)

My oldest wouldn't have too much opportunity to cross Sirra, but my youngest is actually out in the barn where he often is. Shit. I hate this. It might not even be a problem, but I just don't know. If the dog had been more openly friendly, I'd feel better about this. But he even growled at Julia (my oldest) from my open front door when they stopped by yesterday.

It's a pain, because one of the reasons I want to live back here in the woods is to for the pleasant, undisturbed walking yo can get to from just my front door.
 

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I'm seeing red flags all over this dog's behavior, pit bull or not. I'm also seeing bigger red flags over the behavior of the owners, who sound uninterested in training or controlling the animal, and who don't seem to be taking these issues seriously. (How did they get their hands on a rescue? Was this a legitimate group? Something smells iffy, here...)

If I were you, I'd trust my instincts, here. Caution is advised. Possibly pepper spray, and a speed-dial on animal control.
I agree 100%.

Perks, I'm sure you know how I feel about "bad" rescue dogs. Many cannot be trained in time to prevent them from causing real harm even if the owner is really trying. Given that the owner is letting Sirra roam free, you have every reason to be alarmed.

Please arm yourself and your kids with mace, and if the owner won't restrain the dog call Animal Control next time it's loose.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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I'd still talk to the owner about it. If they're good people and worth caring for, they'll reason with you--they should very well know the possible problems they have on their hands. But if they're not willing to work or reason with you, they're not people to care about, IMHO.

Beforehand, call Animal Control for more information and what to do. But still, talk to the owner. Nothing good will happen if you don't talk to them.

I'd advise that too. Maybe cast it in a way that you are 'concerned' that the dog doesn't readily answer when the owner calls its name and doesn't seem to stay under control even in his presence - not even about the leash right now, just that - and that you and your kids do find that unnerving. Push gently at first.
Try to really gauge his reactions from that as far as how cooperative he's likely to be, or what his attitude is.
If he completely shrugs it off and you get the sense he thinks you're the one with the problem, call animal control.
 

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The dog's owner is the horse farm owner.

...

The owner is a bit touchy on quite a number of things, so I can't imagine that this would go over well. At all. Shit.

I wonder if I just have a talk with animal control if they'll have anything to advise.

Wow.

They have a dog like this on the premises, show no inclination to control or train it, and have strangers coming and going for lessons, and don't see the problem? They honestly expect the general public to alter their behavior to accommodate "their" dog? (It's not really their animal if they can't keep it under control, IMHO. They just happen to live on its property.) There is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Are there any other riding stables in the area?

If you can, talk to other neighbors or people with kids at the stable. Talk to animal control. Find out who that rescue group was and report them. No way should these people ever have been given a goldfish, let alone a rescued animal with special requirements. (I'm really concerned that a rescue group looked at that dog's behavior and decided it was fit and ready to be placed, in a facility where children are frequent visitors no less... are you sure that's where they got it from, and not a less-legit source where they knew just what kind of animal they were getting - a "protection" dog, not a pet at all?)
 

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There is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Are there any other riding stables in the area?

That wouldn't help. This property is adjacent to ours, so we're always part of the goings on around here whether or not Rianne takes riding lessons.

Maybe what I should do is show up during the next lesson. Walk over to the barn and see the environment over there. At the very least, it might give me some idea of how to best approach the conversation with the dog's owner.

My littlest now likes Sirra, where she was quite afraid of him at first. I asked her very neutrally about him yesterday after we started this discussion here at AW (prompted by a visit from the dog and his owner to drop off some mail that got put in the wrong box.) She grinned and said, he's so sweet. I said, "Really?" and she told me how well Sirra and the horses get along and that Sirra and the biggest horse, Amos, nuzzle each other and lick each other in the face.

I just hate this worry. If my youngest has established a good relationship with the dog, that's great and makes me happy. But I'd be happier if his owner didn't tell me that she's taught my daughter to shove him down or out of the way when he's being a nuisance. ANd none of this makes me feel any better about my older daughter walking alone out in our area. She's a runner and sometimes does some training running our private road here.

Gah. I hate this.
 

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Does Sirra make eye contact?

We're taking our rescue dog (he's a mini pin and an absolute love . . . but a bit naughty) to obedience courses. And the trainer said about rescues, that if you call the dog's name and they don't make eye contact with you, it's a warning flag.

I know the UPS driver has a pocket full of doggie treats to make dogs like them. My dogs can't wait when that brown truck pulls up. Can you ask animal control or maybe a vet if they would recommend having the kids give Sirra a cookie every time they see her?