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Musa Publishing

veinglory

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In my experience things run biased the other way until a critical point is reached. At which point the present for double digit people with specific complaints suggests that either satisfied authors are in a special group that somehow got a better deal, or they are very easily satisfied.
 

Marian Perera

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Therefore, are we accumulating a biased report here, since satisfied authors are conspicuous by their absence?

Possibly. I'm sure the PublishAmerica forum could be considered a biased report too, since PA authors who are very happy with their experiences are unlikely to post there (a few do, but tend to either leave fast or wake up and smell the coffee). So I'm certain there are some Musa authors who are very satisfied.

On the other hand, I think even a biased report can be useful. For instance, it wouldn't have occurred to me until I read this thread that some authors would report sales in the low double digits. The reaction to such sales is definitely subjective, because some authors would be happy with selling 15 books and some authors would not be. But it is factual that 15 sales were made over a period of time. That's good information for anyone considering Musa.
 

Old Hack

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I've been contacted by over twenty Musa authors who are not members of AW, and who are dissatisfied with their experiences.
 

Thedrellum

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I wonder if the contributors to AW - specifically this thread - are only those whose experiences have been less than satisfactory. Therefore, are we accumulating a biased report here , since satisfied authors are conspicuous by their absence?

Though you have to dig into this 112-page thread to find them, there actually are positive author responses to Musa, too, even after the worm started to turn.
 

seun

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I wonder if the contributors to AW - specifically this thread - are only those whose experiences have been less than satisfactory. Therefore, are we accumulating a biased report here , since satisfied authors are conspicuous by their absence?

I've been contacted by over twenty Musa authors who are not members of AW, and who are dissatisfied with their experiences.

I've been contacted by five or six AWers who are just as unhappy as I am with how it's gone. FWIW, I'd love to hear from people who are happy with their sales and working with Musa if those sales were at least in the hundreds over the course of, say, six months to a year. As has been said, some writers are happy with sales in the teens, and that's fine. We all want different things from writing and publishing, but for measurable success, I'd like to hear from writers with 100s of sales, not low double figures due to a lack of marketing.
 

BenPanced

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Yeah, and considering how some of us who have reported we're happy with our sales and have been met with pity and worry and it's too bad we're with such an unscrupulous publisher?
 

Filigree

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I know someone not on AW who is 'cautiously satisfied' (their words) with Musa. But this is a multi-published author whose other pubs do a lot more marketing, and that may be helping lift Musa sales as well.

Satisfaction is always going to be subjective.

ETA: NovelRank only tells part of the story, but it's fairly accurate at very low sales levels. I just checked several Musa authors, including the person mentioned above. For me, one-digit Amazon sales per month are not satisfactory.
 
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Marian Perera

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Yeah, and considering how some of us who have reported we're happy with our sales and have been met with pity and worry and it's too bad we're with such an unscrupulous publisher?

It's good that you're happy with your sales.

That being said, happiness and satisfaction are subjective, as Filigree mentioned. If sales are in the upper hundreds, then I'd consider this success - and I believe at least one author in this thread has achieved that. If sales are in the teens but the author is happy with their experience, then I'm pleased for the author, but I don't consider this a point in Musa's favor.
 

seun

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Yeah, and considering how some of us who have reported we're happy with our sales and have been met with pity and worry and it's too bad we're with such an unscrupulous publisher?

If you're happy, then excellent. I'm pleased for you. Obviously I don't know your sales figures and they're none of my business anyway, but if they're anything like mine, I personally don't consider that a success.
 

Terie

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Yeah, and considering how some of us who have reported we're happy with our sales and have been met with pity and worry and it's too bad we're with such an unscrupulous publisher?

Can you point to any posts where someone said they were satisfied and the response was, as you put it, 'pity and worry and it's too bad we're with such an unscrupulous publisher'?

As a matter of fact, can you point to any posts where anyone says Musa is an unscrupulous publisher?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Everyone is entitled to decide what satisfies them. People are not entitled to create their own facts.

If your sales satisfy you, that's great. If your sales are objectively 'good' (and I'm happy to go with Queen of Swords' suggestion of 'upper hundreds' to be 'good'), that's great. However, one can't exactly expect people whose sales are less than 20 in almost two years to be be satisfied with those sales, or suggest they're wrong if they're not.

I checked my statements today, and I've made just under $25.00 since July 2012. I spent 16 hours just on the final edits. If I don't take into account all the time actually writing and rewriting the book up to the 'final edit' point, but only account for those 16 hours, that would come out to earning $1.56 per hour. Taking into account the actual time spent on the book, it comes out to a few cents per hour. Surely you don't think someone should be satisfied with that, do you?
 
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Filigree

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Some folks are satisfied to just be published, low sales or not. That's fine for them.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are Musa authors making respectable sales for a small-press publisher: in the mid triple-digits of copies sold per month, at least on Amazon.

Heck, if Musa can gain SFWA status, address the low-pay/royalty issues for interns and pro staff, and streamline its marketing efforts to reach broader audiences..I might give the company another look in a year or two.

I *want* to see Musa succeed. I want to see all the gutsy digital-first presses have a good run at the market. The debacles of Noble, Silver, and Entranced (and some other stuff making its way from rumor mill to confirmation) show how fragile this industry is, and how easily meltdowns can happen from bad judgment,ill health, poor markets, etc. No author in their right mind should commit to just one publisher, especially in the niche erotic romance market. It helps to have as many responsible publishers as possible.

However - and even with an agent's cautious approval of Musa for certain genres - I'm still not sending them anything this year. I don't write fast enough to commit a book to a largely under-performing publisher.
 

BenPanced

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I probably shouldn't have responded with my emotions running so high and being unable (unwilling?) to find cites, but it's not the first time that's happened to me online and it certainly won't be the last.

It just seems like no matter what anybody from Musa says in defense, it's just not good enough. I mention my positive experiences. It's not good enough. Somebody else mentions their positive experiences. It's not good enough. Celina posts her experiences running the company and tries to be transparent. It's not good enough. It feels like because the publisher was started by members of AW and has published members of AW, the fire is being held a little too close to our feet and the screws are just being tightened a bit too much on our thumbs.

I give up. Without trying to sound like a martyr or like I'm having a pity party (probably too late for that, but oh, well), see you in the funny papers.
 

Cassie Knight

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BenPanced;8816729It just seems like no matter what anybody from Musa says in defense said:
While I don't agree with the belief that the fire is being held too close to your feet over others, I do believe that you are right in saying that when you post you are happy, it's not good enough because right after you are congratulated for being happy, it's not good enough. Musa's obviously not for a lot of posters but happy is subjective and if you are happy, I think that should simply stand that you are happy. No follow-up, no if it's under such and such number and so on. You and others are happy. I think that's okay.

Others reading this huge thread will have to sort through and decide on their own path. Everyone wants something different--something that makes him/her happy. I think that line for everyone is different and that's okay.

I'm happy you are happy--period.
 

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Ben, it's lovely to see you back at AW. You've been very much missed.

I'm really sorry you're upset by what's been said in this thread: as Celina has herself said, I'm sure, many times in this room, we're not doing this to upset anyone. We're looking at the good and bad points of working with this publisher and to be honest, I see more bad points than good.

It feels like because the publisher was started by members of AW and has published members of AW, the fire is being held a little too close to our feet and the screws are just being tightened a bit too much on our thumbs.

I find this very interesting, Ben. It seemed to me in the early days of this thread that quite the opposite was happening: I thought that because Celina was at that time a very active member of AW people weren't examining Musa as closely as they would have examined any other new press.

Since Celina stepped back from posting here, that balance has changed and Musa is now receiving the same sort of scrutiny that any press would.

I'm not happy with the way Musa uses interns; nor am I happy with the way it pays its editors (and designers, I think) on royalties, rather than fees.

I'm not happy with the number of books it publishes, nor am I happy with the level of marketing support many of those books receive.

And I'm not happy with the levels of sales Musa's authors seem to have: sales in the teens are just not acceptable. Now, if more of Musa's authors were to drop by and tell us they were selling a few hundred copies of their books (which is still not a lot, but it's still a respectable amount for an e-publisher, I'm told), and we could see that the lower sales reported were unfortunate but not common, perhaps we'd be more positive about Musa as a publisher.

Moreover, being told that writers are "happy" with their publisher is great, and I'm glad that you're happy with Musa: but it's vague, and it doesn't really give us anything to work with: what are you happy with, specifically? It would be good to know. Do you feel you've been treated well by them? If so, how? Were your books marketed well by Musa? Are your sales good? That's the sort of thing I think it would be useful to hear, and which might swing this thread into a more positive direction.
 

seun

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Seconded every single thing Old Hack said.

Being happy with a publisher on a personal level is great. Like I've said (and as have others), we all want different things from a publisher just as we all measure success differently. If our editing experiences, work with the cover artist, general back and forth with the staff and our sales are all smooth, we're going to be happy. The thing is none of that changes the overall feeling from a lot of Musa authors that it has big problems it seems to either be doing little about or even admit to.

If you're happy, Ben, then grand. That means Musa has worked for you and what you want out of publishing; it doesn't mean Musa is an overall success. We still have the issue of a lot of authors with poor sales, horrible experiences with their editing and who are deeply unhappy months or years after their book was accepted.
 
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Hip-Hop-a-potamus

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On a happier note, I'm now up to around 107 copies sold (57 ecopies, and 50 hard copies [which is really just reimbursing myself for the money I spent to make them]), but my name is getting out there.

Tuesday, a friend from work hosted her book club (she had invited me to join, but I caught the stomach flu or food poisoning and couldn't make it). They all LOVED the book, and even gave her a little award for picking one of the best books they've read. That alone was worth about 12 or 13 sales.

So I've passed the magic number. I'm not a bestseller yet, but I'm feeling a LITTLE better about my sales.

I can understand where Ben is coming from because I was there not so long ago. But it still would have been nice to have more help. I went from solidly happy to solidly dissatisfied in a few months.
 

Marian Perera

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It just seems like no matter what anybody from Musa says in defense, it's just not good enough.

Yesterday, I read through Merri Hiatt's self-publishing thread. What jumped out at me right away, other than her enthusiasm, was her facts and figures. Statistics and spreadsheets and sales. Maybe I'm just one of those people who prefers numbers to emotions, but in threads discussing publishers, that's what convinces me - sales and royalties, rather than happiness.

So I'm afraid I can't agree with you. When people from Musa post about actual sales, if those numbers are (what I consider) respectable, that would be good enough for me.

I mention my positive experiences. It's not good enough. Somebody else mentions their positive experiences. It's not good enough.
This reminded me of a discussion on the PublishAmerica message board where a new poster asked if there had ever been a success with PA.

One reply was something like, "Success is holding my book in my hands. Success is living my dream." That was when I first realized that terms like "happiness" and "success" were not the benchmark I should use in evaluating a publisher.

I'm not trying to invalidate that author's experience, but such terms are subjective. If you're satisfied with your experience, that's great, but I hope you see why "I'm happy with Musa" is not going to make us say, "Then Musa must be a good publisher. No more questions from us."

Hip-Hop-a-potamus said:
On a happier note, I'm now up to around 107 copies sold (57 ecopies, and 50 hard copies [which is really just reimbursing myself for the money I spent to make them]), but my name is getting out there.

Glad to hear you made your money back, and your friend's book club has excellent taste. :)
 
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HapiSofi

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It's nice if someone's subjective experience of being published makes them happy -- but sales numbers in the teens, or in the hundreds of copies sold over a period of years, is not what normally gets called success.

I don't have a problem with an individual saying that they feel they've had a successful personal experience. That's something only they can know. But it's a subjective internal experience. It's not successful publishing.

I've known Old Hack on AW for years now. If she calls a publishing operation "unscrupulous" or "exploitive", I take her seriously. But for those who are bothered by such words, I have some alternate or additional adjectives:

Incompetent. You don't have to prove evil intent to observe that a person or organization isn't very good at what they're doing.

Someone else's hobby. There's little risk in someone setting up as a publisher if, when they undertake to publish a book, they hazard so little of their own money that the failure of an individual title to sell in any significant numbers is merely regrettable, rather than a personally painful financial loss.

Meanwhile, every writer who licenses a book to a publisher, and everyone who does editorial or production work for them, is putting up a big chunk of their time, their effort, and in some cases their original ideas. If they understand that what they're doing is a hobby, and don't count the cost to themselves, that's not a problem. Trouble comes when they think that what they're doing is supposed to be paying work.

Unfair. It's not all that difficult to run a publishing operation that randomly or semi-randomly fails to do right by many of its books, but sometimes does a relatively competent job on others.

If a book is lucky; if it's well-timed; if it's a straightforward and congenial piece of work for its pre-press Virgils; if it raises no troublesome packaging or marketing or production issues; in short if it is in all ways convenient, it's going to take about one-twentieth as much effort to publish as its more awkward brethren. Much of that work can be handled by intelligent amateurs who don't have to account for the amount of time they spend doing it.

But as anyone who's worked in commercial publishing can tell you, books that are naturally easy to publish are rare, and you can't predict which ones they'll be. Moreover, an author who writes such a blessed book may find that their next title, which superficially doesn't look all that different, is cross-grained and unlucky at every step of the way. At that point, they need to have it being worked on by experienced pros who've seen and wrestled with a wide range of problems, and who cover their rent by dealing with those problems in a prompt and professional fashion.

It's unfair to organize a company in ways that make things easy on yourself, if that structure imposes an unpredictable and potentially large amount of risk on others.

Low yield. This one's simple: much work, few readers, little pay. Your time and labor are your own, but you have to ask yourself whether you wouldn't be getting more for it elsewhere.
 
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bearilou

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Yesterday, I read through Merri Hiatt's self-publishing thread. What jumped out at me right away, other than her enthusiasm, was her facts and figures. Statistics and spreadsheets and sales. Maybe I'm just one of those people who prefers numbers to emotions, but in threads discussing publishers, that's what convinces me - sales and royalties, rather than happiness.

Considering many of us writing would like very much to make a living doing this, I feel this is a very reasonable approach. If this is the sort of mindset we have in every other aspect of our lives (finding reliable mechanics and technical repair, buying clothing, cars, insurance, food... etc.), it's not unreasonable to view publishers with this same critical scrutiny.
 

Filigree

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This is my approach as well. In my late forties, I'm unlikely to get the kinds of skilled and reasonably lucrative manufacturing jobs that funded me in the past. I'm no longer qualified for the higher-value science jobs in the STEM fields I once trained for, and regaining those certs would cost money I don't have. I loathe retail and service jobs; in my area they're basically dead ends anyway, sucking time without providing a living wage.

So art and writing are it for me. My writing is not yet as profitable as my art, and my freelance art income doesn't approach what I earned as a commercial artist for a big firm. But I have hope, and more importantly, plans.

So when I pick art reps, galleries, and publishers, I do it with an eye toward their earning power and stability. I already have plenty of nebulous and subjective 'satisfaction', but that won't pay my bills.
 

veinglory

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I would note that the satisfied authors do not necessarily have quite the same sales as mentioned on this thread. There is some range of sales extending up into the hundreds. I don't have quite enough to post yet, but hopefully soon.
 
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seun

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For a small press such as Musa, I'd say anything around 200+ sales over the course of six months would be OK. Given that they're no longer newbies, I'd want to see 500+ in the same time frame.

FWIW, my novella with DarkFuse did 200 in six weeks.