"Romance is not real writing"

I love it when you email someone you've never met in all seriousness, to say, "Look. My main character would never call someone a fucking asshole. He's the type to say...oh...I dunno...you're a goatraping thundercunt instead."

(With apologies for language. But yeah, I do have such exchanges with my editors).

A good editor's job is a make a good story better. All those track changes? They're signposts on how to do that.

scarletpeaches said:

Mainly on my addiction to ellipses and some back-and-forthing with my editor regarding Britishisms and Americanisms.

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Ah yes, the differences. I've a few of those conversations too

Anyway, I did have one guy sneer when I said I wrote fantasy romance. 'That's not real writing, real writers write proper fantasy.'

He was wearing a Gunners shirt, so I said, 'Huh, footy's not a real man's game is it? Real men play rugby.'

His wife thought it was hilarious...him not so much.

justme said:

The other day, I stopped in a little used bookstore. After I made a couple laps around the store, I asked the woman behind the counter to point out the romance section. "We don't have the room for romance," she said with a look of disdain on her face. I was shocked. The look on her face let me know she thought they were too good for romance. I glanced around and pointed out some available spots. She wasn't interested, so I left. I've seen the same look before when I tell people what I write. I'm used to it now.

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She's an idiot. She would have loyal customers who read, voraciously, who "glom" onto previous books by an author they've newly discovered, who would bring almost new books to the store to exchange for credit.

Romance because of its wide popularity, and continued reliable sales help fund other genres.

The first paperbacks libraries bought and accepted on their shelves were romance novels, because people wanted to read them, and they were primarily paperback only books.

The popularity of romance as a genre helped pave the way for mystery and SF and F and other genres along the way, in part because romance is present in all sorts of other genres, and is the most likely cross-over.

Think about it; think of Dorothy Sayers' books with both Harriet and Lord Peter. Think about the way Urban Fantasy grew out of both romance and fantasy.

And then, if you're still not convinced that romance is a driving force in the acceptance, publication, and sales of genre fiction in general, here's my ultimate card, alluded to earlier in this thread:

The novel, all novels, literary, canon, or genre, grew out of medieval romance.

Whatever genre you prefer, whatever marketing niche provides your drug of choice, you owe romance heartfelt thanks for the very existence of your genre fetish.

Stacia Kane said:

I think that's a big part of where the stigma comes from; good point. Some men see the success of women as somehow cutting into their own. That attitude hasn't changed, or rather it still exists in some circles, sadly; I've blogged about it before.

(I assume that's the point you're making with the quote?)

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Of couse that's the point I was making, in a way. If you peer into the romantic genre, you will see a large majority of woman writers. As a man, I can't really compete; most romance readers are women, a small fraction may be just as sexist as men, but my version of a romance wouldn't be appealing; men write with the usage of a pessimistic view of things (if they are any good), and a majority of male writers use male lead characters because it's easier for them to relate... (except for James Patterson, but we can see that when he turned "Maximum Ride" into a Romance, he slashed his readers wrists.)

Deb Kinnard said:

This attitude is tiresome in its tendency to rear its ugly head every few years or so. It's strictly elitism and should be dismissed as such.

Funny thing is -- I hang out with many other writers, quite a few of whom write outside romance. SF authors whose names you'd recognize, a mystery writer or two -- and each of them has reported this same dissing of their genre as the bottom of the fiction barrel. Not romance.

Makes you wonder sometimes what the actual agenda is here. Probably nothing deeper than expressing negative opinions in order to make oneself feel better in some trivial fashion.

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My Lady, you are a hypocrite. You accuse men of elitism, when you're exhibiting the same traits you go against... Here's an asterix. *

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

. . . If you peer into the romantic genre, you will see a large majority of woman writers.

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So true.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

As a man, I can't really compete;

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Not so true.

Several of my all-time favorite Romance writers are men or part of man-and-woman teams.
(Peter O'Donnell w/a Madeleine Brent, Serge Golon, Tom Curtis, Bernard Cornwall w/a Susannah Kells )

Men writing Romance genre have sold hundreds of thousands of books. They compete very well.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

most romance readers are women, a small fraction may be just as sexist as men,

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True. But, I think, irrelevant.
. . . At least, the political and social views of readers has never had any effect on my own writing.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

but my version of a romance wouldn't be appealing;

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I'm sorry you feel unable to write good Romance genre, (or good Horror or good non-fiction or good anything else.)

We all have our limitations.
Being unable to do something useful and benign, of course, is never a virtue.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

men write with the usage of a pessimistic view of things (if they are any good)

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piffle

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

and a majority of male writers use male lead characters because it's easier for them to relate...

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Certainly there is a tendancy for writers of both sexes to use male protagonists.

Excellent writers are able to create characters of either sex, all ages, and many backgrounds and beliefs. Perhaps the men who write Romance genre do so well because they are excellent writers.

Originally Posted by Deb Kinnard
This attitude is tiresome in its tendency to rear its ugly head every few years or so. It's strictly elitism and should be dismissed as such.
Funny thing is -- I hang out with many other writers, quite a few of whom write outside romance. SF authors whose names you'd recognize, a mystery writer or two -- and each of them has reported this same dissing of their genre as the bottom of the fiction barrel. Not romance.
Makes you wonder sometimes what the actual agenda is here. Probably nothing deeper than expressing negative opinions in order to make oneself feel better in some trivial fashion.

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Josef VonQuestenberg said:

My Lady, you are a hypocrite. You accuse men of elitism, when you're exhibiting the same traits you go against... Here's an asterix. *

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Nowhere in this quoted text does Deb say that 'men' hold these views or 'men' diss genre fiction.
She is, I think, speaking of an anti-genre bias as likely to be held by women as by men.

You do not say what part of Deb's statement indicates that she is 'elitist'. I have searched in vain for her statement that any genre deserves favored treatment by virtue of its perceived superiority. She is, if anything, arguing for equal treatment of all genres of fiction. This is as 'anti-elitist' as one can be.

I can see that one might take issue with the fact that some romance is literally written "to order" -- some imprints have very strict structures to adhere to. To be fair, there is a similar stigmatism for writers of published fanfic; it's a very Romantic point of view (capitalised to indicate the Wordsworth kind of Romanticism ). There is a suggestion that it is financially motivated and lacks creativity, or is somehow lazy. That it is unadventurous. That the fact the writer has rules to adhere to suggests they lack talent.

Then we have the issue that romances deal with ideals as opposed to realism. Some fantasy gets away with this because the whole point of fantasy is not realism (although with urban fantasy, we're closing the gap). Ideals are for little girls, you see. Perhaps some feel threatened because they could be seen to set unrealistic standards for lovers and relationships; perhaps some people, understandably, want to read about relationships that follow a more realistic and less linear arc. The genre is catching up with that though, especially with the emergence of some erotica.

All of that, of course, is as subjective as any other area of fiction. The lines are just a little more blurred because most of it isn't written to order in that fashion (a lot of romance isn't these days, either). I've read fabulous romances and very, very bad ones -- just like any other genre. What I will say, though, is that they tend to be more predictable with their HEAs.

The final point I will make is that we have e-pubs who specifically deal with romance/erotica these days, but hardly any for other genres. That has been a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, some writers have been able to experiment and break free from publisher-imposed restrictions; on the other, some of the smaller pubs are pumping out a monumental amount of shite that is doing the industry no favours at all.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

My Lady, you are a hypocrite. You accuse men of elitism, when you're exhibiting the same traits you go against... Here's an asterix. *

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Where did Deb accuse men of elitism?

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

Of couse that's the point I was making, in a way. If you peer into the romantic genre, you will see a large majority of woman writers. As a man, I can't really compete; most romance readers are women, a small fraction may be just as sexist as men, but my version of a romance wouldn't be appealing; men write with the usage of a pessimistic view of things (if they are any good), and a majority of male writers use male lead characters because it's easier for them to relate... (except for James Patterson, but we can see that when he turned "Maximum Ride" into a Romance, he slashed his readers wrists.)




My Lady, you are a hypocrite. You accuse men of elitism, when you're exhibiting the same traits you go against... Here's an asterix. *

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This isn't a thread about men vs. women, per se, so let's not try to turn it into one. Let's also not get into sexist generalizations like "Men can't write romance," or "men write with the usage of a pessimistic view of things," (which I frankly don't even understand what that's supposed to mean).

Making the point that the dismissal of romance as a genre may/probably does have something to do with sexism is one thing. Displaying sexism by saying men can't write romance or women don't write with a pessimistic viewpoint or whatever is another, and I'd appreciate it if we didn't go there in this thread, okay?

In addition, Josef, we respect our fellow writers at AW, which means we don't call each other hypocrites because they made innocent, non-hypocritical statements.


Do you read romance, or write it?

brainstorm77 said:

Where did Deb accuse men of elitism?

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I've been in enough arguments with people about elitism that It's just a reflex now. It's usually more that men are the ones most often accused of elitism, so when it's brought up, I raise my guns in assumptions. If she meant it in someone just hates the genre, well then I made mistake. Otherwise, still a chance I'm right if my assumption was correct.

Stacia Kane said:

In addition, Josef, we respect our fellow writers at AW, which means we don't call each other hypocrites because they made innocent, non-hypocritical statements.

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I've seen elitists call other elitists: "elitists". I don't like elitism unless it pretains to 'knowledge' about a particular topic in discussion, such as firearms or character types.

Stacia Kane said:

Do you read romance, or write it?

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I do a little of both. I'm one of the guys who has read the first Twilight and saw the good in it, and I've done my share of trying to write romance books. I've done well except I tend to screw up the endings, and there's always a darker side to it, like someone is powered by Lust instead of love, and they go from typical lovvy-dovvy to breaking up and saying Meh about it.

Stacia Kane said:

This isn't a thread about men vs. women, per se, so let's not try to turn it into one. Let's also not get into sexist generalizations like "Men can't write romance," or "men write with the usage of a pessimistic view of things," (which I frankly don't even understand what that's supposed to mean).

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Every romance I've read that has been written by a man has had a darker part happening in it, like death or a strong argument. Women do it too in their romances, but out of the male authors, it seems to happen slightly more. From my own experience. The 'darker side' in the stories is what I meant by pessimism.

Stacia Kane said:

Making the point that the dismissal of romance as a genre may/probably does have something to do with sexism is one thing. Displaying sexism by saying men can't write romance or women don't write with a pessimistic viewpoint or whatever is another, and I'd appreciate it if we didn't go there in this thread, okay?

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I'm just bringing up something I've experienced more often personally; when it comes to romanticism, men tend to not be as cheerful, women tend to be more cheerful. It's not the same for everything, just % wise. Sort of looking at Happy endings and those not-so-much happy.

Another Editor said:

I would like to know how you deal with this stigma, and if you ever felt the need to "justify" what you do to other writers.

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Romance is one of fiction's oldest genres; it deals with one of humanity's main concerns, it is full of dramatic power and has the ability to reveal people at their very best and worst in surprising ways.

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004) is a romance. Charlie Kaufman's screenplay won an Oscar, a BAFTA, a Stoker and was nominated for a Hugo, and won numerous national and regional film and literary critics awards.

Romance is a worthy literary subject. How you write about it is up to you.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

Every romance I've read that has been written by a man has had a darker part happening in it, like death or a strong argument. Women do it too in their romances, but out of the male authors, it seems to happen slightly more.

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Ah, but see, you're operating off an assumption which is likely incorrect. For example, I know of several men who write for Harlequin under female names and you would likely never know they are men. AND they publish ST fiction for major publishers that is very "manly." And Harlequin is quite definitely HEA romance.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

. . . I don't like elitism unless it pretains to 'knowledge' about a particular topic in discussion, such as firearms or character types.

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

Every romance I've read that has been written by a man has had a darker part happening in it, like death or a strong argument.

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Which Romance genre books are you thinking of? I don't associate male Romance writers with bloodthirstiness. Rather the opposite, in fact.

If you want to see what men are writing in Romance genre, you might check out some of the writers here.

I've kind of had the opposite experience. I was told that I should write "formulaic" fiction (aka romances) so I could produce a bazillion in a year by only needing to change the characters' names, hair color, eye color, etc. Because that's the only difference in romance, right?

But then I was also told by a fellow classmate during my last year of college that I shouldn't go to grad school if I write genre fiction because the professors only like literary fiction. I thought about going to grad school just to prove him wrong, but went to Asia to teach ESL instead. Now I just don't know if grad school will benefit my writing goals or not (which is to write the best book I can, finish editing one of the novels I have written, and hopefully get published).

I also don't write genre romance, though most of my novels have an HEA. I read a lot of romances, but they're not something I could write. And I've tried, but it's really hard for me. I'm just most comfortable writing YA, which tends to have a lot of romance in it anyway.

Yttar

yttar said:

I've kind of had the opposite experience. I was told that I should write "formulaic" fiction (aka romances) so I could produce a bazillion in a year by only needing to change the characters' names, hair color, eye color, etc. Because that's the only difference in romance, right?

Yttar

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Lol! I've been told the same thing. Of course, it's always people that don't read romances who say these things.

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

I've been in enough arguments with people about elitism that It's just a reflex now. It's usually more that men are the ones most often accused of elitism, so when it's brought up, I raise my guns in assumptions. If she meant it in someone just hates the genre, well then I made mistake. Otherwise, still a chance I'm right if my assumption was correct.

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You made a mistake.

I've seen elitists call other elitists: "elitists". I don't like elitism unless it pretains to 'knowledge' about a particular topic in discussion, such as firearms or character types.

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Let's try this again, shall we? You owe Deb an apology, because your statement to her was disrespectful. You will apologize to her, because I'm the moderator of the Romance forum and if you want to continue playing in here you will drop this subject like I asked you to, apologize, and move on with the discussion.

Every romance I've read that has been written by a man has had a darker part happening in it, like death or a strong argument. Women do it too in their romances, but out of the male authors, it seems to happen slightly more. From my own experience. The 'darker side' in the stories is what I meant by pessimism.

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All those romances you claim men can't write, you mean?

Every romance you've read isn't enough for you to make a generalization like that. I dare you to read some of the books written by ladies here, including myself, and tell me those aren't dark.

But again, water under the bridge. The topic of this discussion is not "Male Romances vs. Female Romances." If you would like to discuss that topic feel free to start another thread. Otherwise, quit trying to change the subject, as I asked you to do in my previous post. (Also, TWILIGHT is not a genre romance, just FYI.)

I'm just bringing up something I've experienced more often personally; when it comes to romanticism, men tend to not be as cheerful, women tend to be more cheerful. It's not the same for everything, just % wise. Sort of looking at Happy endings and those not-so-much happy.

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Your profile seems to imply you're still in high school? So, with all due respect, you'll forgive me if I take your personal experiences with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean they're not valid or that you personally are foolish or ridiculous, and certainly your posts are impressively written for a high-schooler. But the fact remains that I tend to give more credit to the personal experiences of people who've actually lived in the real world, outside of school.

Also, you mention "Happy endings and not-so-much-happy" pertaining to romance. Genre romance requires a Happily Ever After (HEA) ending. So whatever books you're reading that don't have those endings, they may be romantic, but they are not romance. Perhaps this is where your confusion is coming in re male writers being more pessimistic? Like Nicholas Sparks, who writes romantic tragedies, really, and not romance?

Feel free to reply to me in PM. We're no longer discussing you or your opinions about male vs. female romance in this thread (but again, feel free also to start a new thread for male vs. female if it's a topic you truly wish to discuss). If you have some questions about what specifically makes up the romance genre, feel free to start a thread on that as well, and I say that simply because your comment about TWILIGHT and then the not-so-happy-endings thing makes me wonder iof perhaps one of the issues in this thread is that we're talking about two different things and don't realize it?

Josef VonQuestenberg said:

Of couse that's the point I was making, in a way. If you peer into the romantic genre, you will see a large majority of woman writers. As a man, I can't really compete; most romance readers are women, a small fraction may be just as sexist as men, but my version of a romance wouldn't be appealing; men write with the usage of a pessimistic view of things (if they are any good), and a majority of male writers use male lead characters because it's easier for them to relate... (except for James Patterson, but we can see that when he turned "Maximum Ride" into a Romance, he slashed his readers wrists.)

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As I said earlier: misogyny.

My mom has shelves and shelves of books, and buys romances by the pound at the used bookstore. Stealing her books was where I started reading romance.

But she'll still snort and say, "Well, if you're going to write that kind of book, you better drop a couple of IQ points." <---------not kidding.

(Might have more to do with me than necessarily the genre, but still.)

And then she went on to ask if I'd seen Crusie's latest, and fade into a series of hoots and chirps just beyond my happy place.

yttar said:

Now I just don't know if grad school will benefit my writing goals or not

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Oh. If you have a chance to go to grad school -- if you have the time and the money -- I'd say to do it.

But I'd say to go in some field that is not related to writing.
Art, anthropology, Chinese history, sociology, comparative religion . . . everything from Plains Indian folk tales to wine tasting.

If you're in this for the long haul, you need something you love that fills the creative well. That sparks new ideas.
That's what grad school can give you.

job said:

Oh. If you have a chance to go to grad school -- if you have the time and the money -- I'd say to do it.

But I'd say to go in some field that is not related to writing.
Art, anthropology, Chinese history, sociology, comparative religion . . . everything from Plains Indian folk tales to wine tasting.

If you're in this for the long haul, you need something you love that fills the creative well. That sparks new ideas.
That's what grad school can give you.

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Well, that or a better paying day job.

...or in some cases, a worse paying job. Sigh. The perils of specialisation. (Still, I would totally recommend it).

Exsqueeze me while I boggle at a couple of posts in this thread. And wonder how I can be more pessimitic and calculate my body count.

And wonder if generations could be any broader?

IdiotsRUs said:

And wonder if generations could be any broader?

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Ooooooh, I have so many things to say right here, but my previous generation might find me!

Er...and I would never, because...that would be wrong?

jennontheisland said:

Well, that or a better paying day job.

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Always an option . . . though I'm not going to go to the stake defending the notion that an MA in Chinese History is going to pull in the $$