St Louis County - Police Officer Fatally Shoots 18-Year-Old (Michael Brown)

Xelebes said:

Corroborates (partially) the pal ob Brown's claim that there was a struggle by and in the vehicle. Doesn't answer whether Brown was pulled in or Brown pushed Wilson.

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So the 2 scenarios are Brown reached into the cop car on his own and fought for the gun or that Wilson reached out through his window and tried to pull him into the squad car?

Vince524 said:

So the 2 scenarios are Brown reached into the cop car on his own and fought for the gun or that Wilson reached out through his window and tried to pull him into the squad car?

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Brown either pushed against the police officer who was asking him to do something, resulting in a struggle and two initial shots, or the police officer pulled Brown in, resulting in a struggle and two initial shots.

Xelebes said:

Brown either pushed against the police officer who was asking him to do something, resulting in a struggle and two initial shots, or the police officer pulled Brown in, resulting in a struggle and two initial shots.

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Pushed? If the shots were inside the car, that would mean that either Brown went in through the window to attack or Wilson pulled him through. Or am I missing something.

ETA: Wasn't Wilson sitting in his patrol car at that point, in the drivers seat? This wasn't outside and by the car. Or am I wrong on that?

Vince524 said:

Pushed? If the shots were inside the car, that would mean that either Brown went in through the window to attack or Wilson pulled him through. Or am I missing something.

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I'm just stating the initial contact. A struggle is apparent from the forensics.

Karen Junker said:

This autopsy isn't like on TV where the doc explains exactly what happened. Is there also a summary of his findings or anything?

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Yes, page 11 onwards, before histology and toxicology.

Two gunshot wounds to the head (plus one exit wound), two to the chest, four to the arm and hand, two of which were grazes. Various abrasions, otherwise in good health. Blood and urine positive for cannabis. COD gunshot wounds to head and chest.

I can honestly say with all sincerity, I do not care anymore.

Darren Wilson will not be indicted and if he is indicted he will not be convicted.

If Ferguson burns, then it burns. The fires will die out. The businesses will either close or reopen. The ashes will cool, the passion will die and people will go back to their normal miserable lives in Ferguson.

It's the same old song with slightly different lyrics.

Been here. Seen that. Don't care.

Nighttimer - Don't give up.

Your voice is a powerful force for good. I know it's hard to keep caring when decade after decade, century after century, some things never change. But because of people like you who speak out, some things do change. I am here to add my voice to yours -- I am here to lift you back up when you are discouraged.

We may never know the truth. But Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin and countless others will be in the memory of young people as they go through law school -- and when some of them become prosecutors (because many young lawyers choose this path so they can have an effect on which cases get heard and which cases are tossed out because they are clearly biased), they will be able to dismiss cases that they can see are clearly racially or economically biased.

But that won't happen if people like us remain silent. Let us find others like us, who will support and encourage us to continue -- because this fight is a good fight and some day the dream of Dr. King will become a reality. Don't give up hope.

There wasn't much that the autopsy could tell us about the confrontation, really. It established that the entry wounds were not int the back, which clears up what direction Brown was facing, and it establishes that he was under the influence of marijuana and nothing else at the time of the shooting. It also establishes that Brown and Wilson were several feet apart at the time, due to the lack of stippiling and soot around the wounds.

But really, anything else is beyond the scope of an autopsy. It can't tell the sequence of the shots. It can't tell us why Wilson felt threatened. It can't tell us what Brown was thinking. We should be realistic about our expectations of the autopsy.

nighttimer said:

The ashes will cool, the passion will die and people will go back to their normal miserable lives in Ferguson.

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Gee...thanks.

While not everyone who opposes police brutality and racism feels that raucous protests and civil disobedience is the best way to get a point across, there are plenty of residents who recognize the realities of these issues and are concerned about what the outcome of this case of this will mean for Ferguson and the surrounding areas. Those who don't live here can turn off the TV or refuse to follow the story, but that's just not possible when it's in your backyard. No one here wants it to be miserable. It's just that finding that happy medium will look differently to different people and can't be found and while the extremes of both sides of this grapple for attention. The peacekeeping and progress making discussions will have to happen when tempters have cooled. IMO, people aren't ready for that to happen yet. Reading through any Ferguson related twitter feed shows this pretty clearly.

Helicopters have been circling since about 8am, as today has been another call to action day http://fergusonoctober.com

Personally, I'm not a fan of how information has been leaked to the public. I think it -- like many of the other aspects of this case-- reeks of unprofessionalism on the part of the authorities, but then again, I don't think they have a good move to make, at this point.

There have been several sizable donations made to Ferguson based businesses in an effort to create jobs in the area and perhaps that's a start to something good...
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/...-grants-awarded-to-ferguson-area.html?ana=twt


From my perspective, we (residents) are not looking forward to the next few weeks for a host of reasons, but are remaining hopeful that some kind of positive change will be brought about for our community.

Cella said:

Personally, I'm not a fan of how information has been leaked to the public. I think it -- like many of the other aspects of this case-- reeks of unprofessionalism on the part of the authorities, but then again, I don't think they have a good move to make, at this point.

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If they hadn't released the information there would be a large number of people complaining about a "lack of transparency" using it as an example of unprofessionalism.

elinor said:

If they hadn't released the information there would be a large number of people complaining about a "lack of transparency" using it as an example of unprofessionalism.

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A leak is not the same as a release. It's a surreptitious allowance to announce information that they don't have the courage to actually release and officially own.

I wonder if they leaked it to start getting the info out there so that if it doesn't result in an indictment, it's not a surprise.

This information, even viewed in the most favorable light possible, doesn't put Officer Wilson in the clear.

robjvargas said:

A leak is not the same as a release. It's a surreptitious allowance to announce information that they don't have the courage to actually release and officially own.

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I was unaware of whether it was a leak or an official release.

cmhbob said:

We should be realistic about our expectations of the autopsy.

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And the good and ill that will come from it. I think Ferguson's administration has already brought this story to the point that a great many people won't believe the results of the autopsy, the investigation or any court case that comes from it.

Williebee said:

And the good and ill that will come from it. I think Ferguson's administration has already brought this story to the point that a great many people won't believe the results of the autopsy, the investigation or any court case that comes from it.

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I am afraid this is true. We've long past the point where anyone's opinion will be swayed by additional facts. The distrust is so extreme that should a video of the incident surface, a large segment of the population would believe it was doctored unless it showed what they already believe to be true.

rugcat said:

I am afraid this is true. We've long past the point where anyone's opinion will be swayed by additional facts. The distrust is so extreme that should a video of the incident surface, a large segment of the population would believe it was doctored unless it showed what they already believe to be true.

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Didn't we already see that? When the video of Brown leaving the convenience store was released, I remember quite a few comments being made suggesting it had been edited, in addition to its timing and purpose.

From WaPo:

Ferguson, Mo., police officer Darren Wilson and Michael Brown fought for control of the officer’s gun, and Wilson fatally shot the unarmed teenager after he moved toward the officer as they faced off in the street, according to interviews, news accounts and the full report of the St. Louis County autopsy of Brown’s body.
Because Wilson is white and Brown was black, the case has ignited intense debate over how police interact with African American men. But more than a half-dozen unnamed black witnesses have provided testimony to a St. Louis County grand jury that largely supports Wilson’s account of events of Aug. 9, according to several people familiar with the investigation who spoke with The Washington Post.

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Bolding mine.

Also this:

Benjamin L. Crump, an attorney for the Brown family, said Brown’s family and supporters will not be convinced by the autopsy report or eyewitness statements that back Wilson’s account of the incident.
“The family has not believed anything the police or this medical examiner has said,” Crump said. “They have their witnesses. We have seven witnesses that we know about that say the opposite.”

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And then there's this:

Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Post’s sources said.

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So you have the attorney for the family basically saying they're not going to believe whatever comes out of this grand jury, they want a trial. I can understand wanting to see everything for themselves, but in a trial, all of the witnesses would testify in open court and they'd be afraid for their safety and I'm sure the safety of their family and friends. Seems like a no win scenario here.

But I believe this is the reason for the leaks. Let out a little here and little there, so the community gets it's head around the fact that there won't be a trial. I don't know it it was the best or wisest way to go, but I'm not sure what else I'd recommend.

The marijuana in his system is really not that important in the grand scheme of things and it's a mistake to focus on that. It may have done a b or c to him, but the focus is on what Brown and Wilson did.

Vince524 said:

The marijuana in his system is really not that important in the grand scheme of things and it's a mistake to focus on that. It may have done a b or c to him, but the focus is on what Brown and Wilson did.

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It's the tone that's telling, when it comes to why people don't trust what they're being told.

http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/...cle_af1408ef-6e49-5713-814a-5bd41bb0b869.html

I just had to read for myself regarding the claim of "hallucinogenic" properties of THC!!Link is to St. Louis Post Dispatch.

Asssumed Guilty Until Proven Innocent

Karen Junker said:

Nighttimer - Don't give up.

Your voice is a powerful force for good. I know it's hard to keep caring when decade after decade, century after century, some things never change. But because of people like you who speak out, some things do change. I am here to add my voice to yours -- I am here to lift you back up when you are discouraged.

We may never know the truth. But Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin and countless others will be in the memory of young people as they go through law school -- and when some of them become prosecutors (because many young lawyers choose this path so they can have an effect on which cases get heard and which cases are tossed out because they are clearly biased), they will be able to dismiss cases that they can see are clearly racially or economically biased.

But that won't happen if people like us remain silent. Let us find others like us, who will support and encourage us to continue -- because this fight is a good fight and some day the dream of Dr. King will become a reality. Don't give up hope.

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Hope?

When I woke up this morning, I was already ahead of the game. Some folks went to bed last night and didn't get up.

It was dark during the morning trek on the freeway. This was followed by fog. Now it's bright, sunny, crisp and a beautiful autumn day.

I'm always hopeful. If I wasn't there wouldn't be much point to going on, would there? The hope is tempered by reality and the reality is it doesn't take a fortune teller to read the cards and see nothing is coming in the future but disappointment and frustration for anyone hoping for justice in the shooting of Michael Brown.

There has been a steady drip...drip...drip...of anonymous sources and mysterious leaks defining Brown as a thug, a wannabee criminal, a drug-addled creep and potential menace to society. This sounds so familiar because the exact same things were said about Trayvon Martin when it was his turn to be assumed guilty until proven innocent.

Citizens are taught early on to respond affirmatively to evidence and authority. Respect the police. Trust the politician. Believe in the impartiality of the experts. They have no reason to lie or to mislead. Everything is under control. Just stay cool and keep the people off the streets why the justice system plays out.

And it's a load. A total and complete load of bullshit. Am I to believe a justice system which was never designed to include the groups polite society has always historically marginalized and ignored is now going to do a 180 degree turn and put the interests of the aggrieved minority over the apprehensive majority?

I have hope but I'm not stupid. Even if Wilson is indicted by the grand jury as a gesture of appeasement to a restless community, he will not be convicted. Of that I would wager money.

Ms. Junker, it's not that I want to pour cold water on your possibly prophetic words how the killings of Martin and Brown will inspire Black youths to become lawyers and right the wrongs of the legal system, but that's a long-term fix that is a long way off to coming to pass.

Justice delayed is justice denied and there's a helluva lot of injustice going on in Ferguson, Missouri right now.

Blind cynicism ill becomes me. Keeping my expectations low and modest spares me disappointment when things turn exactly as badly as my I figured they would.

nighttimer said:

If Ferguson burns, then it burns. The fires will die out. The businesses will either close or reopen. The ashes will cool, the passion will die and people will go back to their normal miserable lives in Ferguson.

Click to expand...

Cella said:

Gee...thanks.

While not everyone who opposes police brutality and racism feels that raucous protests and civil disobedience is the best way to get a point across, there are plenty of residents who recognize the realities of these issues and are concerned about what the outcome of this case of this will mean for Ferguson and the surrounding areas. Those who don't live here can turn off the TV or refuse to follow the story, but that's just not possible when it's in your backyard. No one here wants it to be miserable. It's just that finding that happy medium will look differently to different people and can't be found and while the extremes of both sides of this grapple for attention. The peacekeeping and progress making discussions will have to happen when tempters have cooled. IMO, people aren't ready for that to happen yet. Reading through any Ferguson related twitter feed shows this pretty clearly.

From my perspective, we (residents) are not looking forward to the next few weeks for a host of reasons, but are remaining hopeful that some kind of positive change will be brought about for our community.

Click to expand...

It would be lovely if I could say Ferguson is a place where fairies eat orchards and shit rainbows, but that would be a gross exaggeration.

Ferguson has become Ground Zero for Life in Not Post-Racial America. Nobody could have predicted it and nobody knows how things will end, but if I have a sour attitude about Ferguson, after the debacle of the last few months when an American city looked like the Gaza Strip, how should I view Ferguson, Missouri?

A happy land of milk and honey and bountiful bliss for all?

kuwisdelu said:

It's the tone that's telling, when it comes to why people don't trust what they're being told.

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Could you explain what you mean here? Not sure, you may be right and I may agree, but I'm not sure I understand what your saying.

The statement that the SLCPD have witnesses that corroborate Wilson's side of the story means little in the wake of what the law enforcement agencies did after the shooting. It may be that they do and I would have no doubt those witnesses would fear for their lives if their identities were known.

However. Until they come forward or their identities are revealed, all we have is the statement from a law enforcement agency, which has zero respect and trust from the community, that they have those witnesses. Simply stating that those witnesses exist has no weight whatsoever.