Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

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vsrenard

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Can you link to a report that says Zimmerman drew his gun and then got out of his car?

No, was responding to Monkey's comment about deciding to get out of a car with gun in hand. The moment as to when Zimmerman drew the gun, in my understanding, is still unknown. But the moment he did is when he decided the confrontation would be over.
 

escritora

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No, was responding to Monkey's comment about deciding to get out of a car with gun in hand. The moment as to when Zimmerman drew the gun, in my understanding, is still unknown. But the moment he did is when he decided the confrontation would be over.

Oh, okay. Got it.
 

muravyets

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Based on the information so far, I'm not as sure as you are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon in his car.

As for the rest of your post, I don't have anything new to add. We disagree and that's fine.
On the released 911 tapes, on one of Zimmerman's calls to 911, the dispatcher asks him if he is following the suspicious person. Zimmerman says yes. The dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."

Whether Zimmerman was in his car for some portion of the time he followed Martin, or he was on foot the whole time, there can be no doubt he was following Martin and had been asked not to. At the time he called 911 and was told not to follow Martin, Zimmerman was in no danger at all. If he had done as he was told, none of this would have happened, either to Martin or to Zimmerman. Zimmerman has no legitimacy in a claim of self-defense when he himself instigated an unnecessary confrontation.
 

escritora

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On the released 911 tapes, on one of Zimmerman's calls to 911, the dispatcher asks him if he is following the suspicious person. Zimmerman says yes. The dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."

Those are the facts.

Whether Zimmerman was in his car for some portion of the time he followed Martin, or he was on foot the whole time, there can be no doubt he was following Martin and had been asked not to.

We disagree.

At the time he called 911 and was told not to follow Martin, Zimmerman was in no danger at all.

Agree.

If he had done as he was told, none of this would have happened, either to Martin or to Zimmerman.

I'm not convinced he didn't do what he was told.

Zimmerman has no legitimacy in a claim of self-defense when he himself instigated an unnecessary confrontation.

Agree.
 

Lyv

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Reading the transcript, it sounds like the dispatcher says the police will meet Zimmerman where he is parked, where he wants him to stay, and Zimmerman gives directions to where he is, saying the police will see his truck. I think all together, it shows that at the time of the 911 call, he's there in or with his truck. The transcript doesn't reflect it, but it sounds to me like Zimmerman is moving somewhere on foot after that. Do we know where his truck was parked in relation to where Trayvon was killed?
 

Monkey

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Vsrenard,

I really don't think the hoodie had any part in this. The guy called the cops on a number of black males, at least one of them a very young child who he estimated to be about four foot tall.

Why did Zimmerman report Trayvon to 911? Not because of the hoodie. He didn't have a habit of reporting anyone in a hoodie--he had a habit of reporting black males.

Why did he pursue Trayvon? In his words, it was because the people he reported "always get away."

It seems to me that he was getting tired of there being no arrests after his numerous calls to 911 and decided to track this guy down himself.

Geraldo says the hoodie is as much to blame for this murder as the Zimmerman. I have to wonder what he would have blamed if the next black male Zimmerman had called the cops on was the four foot child, and that had been the one he decided to pursue...
 

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Zimmeran stopped running after Trayvon when the dispatcher told him to and he remained on the line and answered more questions. Link

I wonder if Zimmerman started to chase him again after the call. Or if he came across Trayvon when he parked his car and waited for the police at the designated area he and the dispatcher agreed upon.

Um, no. They don't agree on an area to meet at -- at the very end of the call, Zimmerman tells the operator to just have the police call him instead, and he'll tell them where he's at. Also, if you listen to the 911 call, you can clearly hear Zimmerman's heavy breathing at certain points; it sounds like he's running or otherwise exerting himself. In fact, immediately after the heavy breathing starts is when the 911 operator asks "are you following him?" -- which makes me think even the operator thought it sounded like running. The heavy breathing then picks up again after the operator says "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman says "ok".

As for Zimmerman following Trayvon in his car, I thought that was an undisputed fact in this case? Even if it's not, you can hear Zimmerman getting out of his car and shutting the door on the 911 call. It's around the time he says "these assholes, they always get away... he's heading towards the other entrance" (or whatever he says). I wonder if you've actually listened to the 911 call, or if you're relying solely on transcripts.
 

Mclesh

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My husband was wearing a hoodie last night pulled over his face because he was cold. I told him, "You should take a picture and post it on Facebook," with the caption, "Be very afraid."
 

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What is Common-law in this scenario?

That Trayvon can claim Stand Your Ground, and in the middle of the fight Zimmerman can claim another law to shoot him?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to understand.


Sorry for the delay - running errands.

As best as I understand what he explained to me...

common-law says:

1) in states that don't have stand your ground laws, you have a duty to retreat when you're not in your place of residence or employment

IF, in the hypothetical, Zimmerman is on his back on the ground getting beaten up (not saying he was or wasn't, to be clear), how do you retreat from that?

2) you have the right to use reasonable force (including deadly force) to protect yourself.

IF, in this same hypothetical, Zimmerman is getting the shit kicked out of him (not saying he was or wasn't, to be clear), he has the arguable right to draw his weapon and shoot his attacker.

Yes, this would still apply even if Zimmerman provoked the situation.
 

Kateness

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Do we really know all that about Zimmerman's condition? Whose account for it do we have? Zimmerman's? The cops'? Both of those sources have already been called into serious question. What corroboration is there?

Yes. As I said, this is my understanding of the explanation of the guy I work for, who is relying only on what news stories he has read. He and a law student and I were just talking about it, that's all.

Further, since when is it the job of the cops to make decisions for the prosecutor as to whether a case can be brought? Oh, right, since the State of Florida decided that cops at a crime scene should be the ones to make a snap judgment of "Oh, you'll never get convicted. Off you go. Have a nice day, sir." No need for any pesky interviews or investigation to find out what happened, or review of the law in the case, or any of that pointless guff.

The way the Florida law is written, the cops can get away with letting Zimmerman get away with killing Trayvon Martin. But that doesn't make it a done deal that Zimmerman could not have been detained, or should not have been detained, or could not have been prosecuted, even under the Florida law. The law's own primary sponsor in the state legislature has said as much, as has every legal expert I've heard comment on the case so far, until this conversation.


If that's how you took what I said, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that he feels the police were right because they didn't have probable cause to arrest him. He's there, Trayvon is dead, he (allegedly) appears to be wounded, and he says self-defense.

I have to be blunt and say I think the speculative conclusion of your employers is crap. Like so many of the excuses of the police in this case, this interpretation depends on assertions of facts not in evidence, unreliable and/or disputed sources, and a twisted "it could happen" logic of how this event could possibly appear to have been self defense.

I'm offering an opinion based on a short discussion I had. I presented it such that it was a lawyer who formed it not because I felt that doing so would add extra weight to it (which is why I indicated that he doesn't do criminal work or practice in the relevant jurisdiction), but to indicate that it came from someone with at least passing knowledge of the way the law works. IMO, YMMV.
 

escritora

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Um, no. They don't agree on an area to meet at -- at the very end of the call, Zimmerman tells the operator to just have the police call him instead, and he'll tell them where he's at.
I took that to mean he didn't know the address where his car was parked, he was going to his car, and when the police called he'd tell them where he was waiting -- at the initial place the dispatcher and him agreed on.

Also, if you listen to the 911 call, you can clearly hear Zimmerman's heavy breathing at certain points; it sounds like he's running or otherwise exerting himself. In fact, immediately after the heavy breathing starts is when the 911 operator asks "are you following him?" -- which makes me think even the operator thought it sounded like running. The heavy breathing then picks up again after the operator says "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman says "ok".
Those are the facts.

As for Zimmerman following Trayvon in his car, I thought that was an undisputed fact in this case?
Not after the dispatcher told him not to follow him.

Even if it's not, you can hear Zimmerman getting out of his car and shutting the door on the 911 call. It's around the time he says "these assholes, they always get away... he's heading towards the other entrance" (or whatever he says).
From my recollection, that's before the dispatcher tells Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon. ETA: thebloodfiend added a map where it shows the street Zimmerman made the call from and the street where Trayvon was murdered. So it does appear that Zimmerman followed him after he was told not to.

I wonder if you've actually listened to the 911 call, or if you're relying solely on transcripts.
I've read the transcripts and there's nothing you said here that contradicts what I read.
 
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Lyv

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Not after the dispatcher told him not to follow him.
Then why does Zimmerman change his mind after he gives his location and instead tell the dispatcher to have the police call him so he can say where he will be? He first says he is parked near the mailboxes, says that the police will see his truck past the mailboxes, and that he will meet police there. Then (and you can hear him huffing and puffing) he asks the dispatcher to have the police call him and he'll tell them his location. Why do you think that is?
 

robeiae

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I took that to mean he didn't know the address where his car was parked, he was going to his car, and when the police called he'd tell them where he was waiting -- at the initial place the dispatcher and him agreed on.
I don't think you're making reasonable inferences, at all.

It's Zimmerman's neigborhood, he'd called the police many, many times before while "on patrol." He certainly knew where he was. The police knew the area, too. Their suggestion of the mail box location as a meet-up point was logical. But Zimmerman didn't want to set a location. And I think the reasonable assumption to make is that he didn't want to because he intended to continue following Martin, even though the dispatcher told him not to.

This whole thing is all on Zimmerman, in my view. He wanted to be a big shot and he killed an unarmed kid who had done nothing wrong.
 

escritora

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Then why does Zimmerman change his mind after he gives his location and instead tell the dispatcher to have the police call him so he can say where he will be? He first says he is parked near the mailboxes, says that the police will see his truck past the mailboxes, and that he will meet police there. Then (and you can hear him huffing and puffing) he asks the dispatcher to have the police call him and he'll tell them his location. Why do you think that is?

I wrote:

I took that to mean he didn't know the address where his car was parked, he was going to his car, and when the police called he'd tell them where he was waiting -- at the initial place the dispatcher and him agreed on.
 

escritora

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I don't think you're making reasonable inferences, at all.

I've searched the Internet and it seems only racists agree with my inference. Scary! So, I'm definitely open to another POV...

It's Zimmerman's neigborhood, he'd called the police many, many times before while "on patrol." He certainly knew where he was. The police knew the area, too. Their suggestion of the mail box location as a meet-up point was logical. But Zimmerman didn't want to set a location. And I think the reasonable assumption to make is that he didn't want to because he intended to continue following Martin, even though the dispatcher told him not to.

...but I can't come to the same conclusion.
 

escritora

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Lyv's question regarding the location of the truck and where the murder happened is a key component. I'm simply saying based on what I read so far, I'm not convinced Zimmerman followed Traynor after he was told to stop. I'm not married to my opinion. When I hear new info, I'll gladly re-evaluate.
 

Lyv

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escritora, if you think there's nothing to be gained from listening to the actual call, in which you can hear things that provide clues to when Zimmerman is in a vehicle, when he is moving, etc, I guess there's no point in discussing it further. Though even from the transcript, it's clear to me he's in or with his truck when he's calling. And just for more info, I looked up the address he initially gives, and then the address police give as the crime scene. It's worth a look (I can't figure out how to link to directions I looked up on Google maps, but the first address is 111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL and the second is 1231 Twin Trees Lane, Sanford, FL).

IMO, there's no way, given Zimmerman's 911 call and the map, let alone the other 911 calls, that he stayed with his truck and didn't follow Trayvon. But I get that you aren't in agreement, and that's fine. I appreciate that you're digging in and looking for more information. I like to do that, as well.
 

thebloodfiend

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Here's the distance between 111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL and is 1231 Twin Trees Lane, Sanford, FL:

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x433/thebloodfiend/map.jpg

How did they get from point A to point B if Zimmerman wasn't following Trayvon after they told him to stop? That's quite a distance. But even if Zimmerman got out of the truck and followed him on foot, that's a long way to follow someone if you feel threatened. If I'm being followed by a man twice my size with a gun, you'd think I'd be the victim and that I'd have a right to stand my ground.
 

escritora

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escritora, if you think there's nothing to be gained from listening to the actual call, in which you can hear things that provide clues to when Zimmerman is in a vehicle, when he is moving, etc, I guess there's no point in discussing it further. Though even from the transcript, it's clear to me he's in or with his truck when he's calling.

I took a listen to the tape after my post to cherita. Didn't make much difference to me. He acknowledged on the tape and it's in the transcript that he followed Trayvon.

And just for more info, I looked up the address he initially gives, and then the address police give as the crime scene. It's worth a look (I can't figure out how to link to directions I looked up on Google maps, but the first address is 111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL and the second is 1231 Twin Trees Lane, Sanford, FL).
That's new info. Interesting info. I'll check it out. Thanks!
 

escritora

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Here's the distance between 111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL and is 1231 Twin Trees Lane, Sanford, FL:

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x433/thebloodfiend/map.jpg

How did they get from point A to point B if Zimmerman wasn't following Trayvon after they told him to stop? That's quite a distance. But even if Zimmerman got out of the truck and followed him on foot, that's a long way to follow someone if you feel threatened. If I'm being followed by a man twice my size with a gun, you'd think I'd be the victim and that I'd have a right to stand my ground.

Thanks! I didn't have this information earlier.
 

Lyv

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Here's the distance between 111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL and is 1231 Twin Trees Lane, Sanford, FL:

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x433/thebloodfiend/map.jpg

How did they get from point A to point B if Zimmerman wasn't following Trayvon after they told him to stop? That's quite a distance. But even if Zimmerman got out of the truck and followed him on foot, that's a long way to follow someone if you feel threatened. If I'm being followed by a man twice my size with a gun, you'd think I'd be the victim and that I'd have a right to stand my ground.

Thank you for the photo! That really helps.

So, and this is all me spitballing, of course, but Zimmerman calls from the first address, and you can hear when he starts to move. No way he covered all that ground before the dispatcher tells him not to follow. We can hear him; he's not running. I think we can hear exactly when he starts to follow, and I think the dispatcher can, too, so that's when he says to stop.
 

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The girlfriend was hospitalized for being so upset, sometime that night if reports are correct. She also lives in Miami, so it's not like she could drive over and get with the parents, look for him, etc. She missed his wake because she was still hospitalized :(

Apparently she was so worried it took her several days to be able to be of much help with the family's investigation. The cops? Her word must mean zilch to them as they never cared to even hear it!


As far as whether Trayvon got in a punch to the scary dude stalking him who popped up after he thought he lost him: I'd totally do the same thing. If I saw a gun, all bets are off.

I'm sure that's why the law includes a 1st-aggressor part to it. Rational people will think they need to defend themselves if some person is the aggressor toward them. I think the stalking counts as being the aggressor. Certainly we women all know that we don't have to wait to be snatched or sliced, etc. The stalking is enough indication that something ominous is under way.

Of course, you try to run, but that's not always possible, like why the law was passed in the first place!
 

escritora

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Here's the distance between 111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL and is 1231 Twin Trees Lane, Sanford, FL:

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x433/thebloodfiend/map.jpg

How did they get from point A to point B if Zimmerman wasn't following Trayvon after they told him to stop? That's quite a distance. But even if Zimmerman got out of the truck and followed him on foot, that's a long way to follow someone if you feel threatened. If I'm being followed by a man twice my size with a gun, you'd think I'd be the victim and that I'd have a right to stand my ground.

I looked at the photo closely.

Do we know that he took Retreat View Circle to Twin Trees because of the way he parked his truck? He could have easily taken Long Oak Way to Twin Trees.

I realize in the scheme of things it doesn't matter. The long or the short way, Zimmerman shouldn't have followed him, but I'm curious to know why the longer version is highlighted in green.

Who is the source for the image, thebloodfiend?
 
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