Of Mice and Snakes ... and Tylenol -- (this is NOT a joke, it is NOT "The Onion")

[GeorgeK]

That was a much better article, however limited in scope to about 15 acres if I did the math right and therefore too small to properly assess envirnonmental impact. They did at least determine that this particular snake will eat carrion, at least many or most of them will. It's not likely to be all and probably if this plan is implemented they will probably kill off the oppurtunists and select out snakes that won't eat carrion.

They need to do a larger and longer study.

I'd also like to know more about these telemetry units that fit inside a neonatal mouse

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Could this one be an exception? Theoretically but they should have studied that first because the likelihood is very very low.

You know for a fact that they did not study that during the years leading up to the project's execution?

[zarada]

ahem. does anyone know whether the snakesoup option has been considered?

[Opty]

They could also invigorate their economy by becoming the world leader in high-quality belts, boots, and purses.

[GeorgeK]

Opty, your hatred and vitriol is more than I will bother with. However, anyone else who thinks that this plan is a good idea, I ask if you can find any plan anywhere that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned?

[mccardey]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

I ask if you can find any plan anywhere that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned?

Yes.

MacAllister and the troll-hammer.

[Don]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

However, anyone else who thinks that this plan is a good idea, I ask if you can find any plan anywhere that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned?

Ah, but this time they've got the plan right, not like all those other times. After all, who would have guessed that attempts to control wolves, bison, or even forest fires in Yellowstone National Park would have led to one disaster after another? I'm sure they've considered the impact of this operation on the wolves, bison and forest fires in Guam.

[Opty]

The only things I have "hatred and vitriol" for are misleading misinformation, pseudoscience, and bullshit claims without evidence. I don't attack people; I attack claims that fit within those aforementioned categories. People making such claims should not take it personally when those claims are debunked. They should instead endeavor not to make such claims in the first place.

[benbradley]

Thank God for this GMO popcorn!

[missesdash]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Opty, your hatred and vitriol is more than I will bother with. However, anyone else who thinks that this plan is a good idea, I ask if you can find any plan anywhere that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned?

I don't know what you mean by "worked exactly as planned" but there are plenty of examples of successful intervention of invasive species. Fever Texas Fever ticks come to mind.

While searching for information on that program I come acros a wholesite dedicated to successful eradications of invasive species on federal and state levels. http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/n...l#.USvL9L-9Kc0

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by missesdash

I don't know what you mean by "worked exactly as planned" but there are plenty of examples of successful intervention of invasive species. Fever Texas Fever ticks come to mind.

While searching for information on that program I come acros a wholesite dedicated to successful eradications of invasive species on federal and state levels. http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/n...l#.USvL9L-9Kc0

Those aren't success stories. They are interim mitigation stories. The invasive species are not eradicated and as soon as intervention ceases they will gain the upper hand again. The Texas Fever Tick, furthermore affected livestock, not wild animals. In a wild system you can't catch every animal and bathe them in pesticides. That's not an example of a wild ecosystem

[robeiae]

You didn't specify a "wild ecosystem," George. Nor did you specify "eradication." You asked for an example of a plan "that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned."

Let's not be moving those goalposts all over the place, okay?


Now personally, I take it as given that there can be no plan that works exactly as planned, in this or in pretty much anything else. But there can be plans that were effective in achieving stated goals, no?

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by robeiae

You didn't specify a "wild ecosystem," George. Nor did you specify "eradication." You asked for an example of a plan "that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned."

Let's not be moving those goalposts all over the place, okay?

I completely disagree Rob because the entire discussion is about invasive species affecting wild habitat

Originally Posted by robeiae

Now personally, I take it as given that there can be no plan that works exactly as planned, in this or in pretty much anything else. But there can be plans that were effective in achieving stated goals, no?

Every one that I've read about has been either a failure or had catastrophic unforseen results.

[Friendly Frog]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

However, anyone else who thinks that this plan is a good idea, I ask if you can find any plan anywhere that has worked to deal with invasive species that worked exactly as planned?

It's early days (and still in progress on some), but they've had some successes in clearing goats and rodents off some of the smaller Galapagos islands.

And the islands near Australia which they now use as Kakapo sanctuary have been cleared from invasive rodents too before they moved the Kakapos there. The Kakapo have bred since then, and I have read no reports of predation by invasive animals on the chicks yet.

But I don't really see how knowing of successful pest control cases means one must find the Guam-project a good idea or visa versa.

Yet it's obvious they did some of the necessary research beforehand to give this project some chance of success.

It's easy for us to dismiss parts of the projects without seeing the need to learn what the project-leaders know. Dismissing the project based on the generalisation that snakes don't eat dead prey without checking whether this is true for this specific snake for instance only says more about our lack of expertise than theirs. (For instance, I'm really interested in finding out how the snakes are supposed to get the mice off them parachutes. Seems like an obvious problem... But I'm not going to assume they haven't thought of that yet.)

That said, it pays to think fighting invasive pests through thoroughly before one begins. We've had far too many miss-fires in the past from people who really should have known better indeed. So it's good to question the methods used for specific pest-control, but that sort of thing usually is more effective when well-informed.

What surprises and saddens me is that we can eridicate many species (numerous ones too like the passenger pigeon) quickly and often almost accidentally. But that we seldom manage to do so when we want and need to, to protect native habitat. What does that say about humanity's effectiveness?

[AncientEagle]

It's obvious we've had a lot of well-intentioned efforts to eradicate invasive species, that ended up causing totally different problems as bad as or worse than the original problem. That said, though, what can be done to solve Guam's problem with the brown tree snake? Pray? Practice voodoo? Learn to add brown tree snakes to the diet?

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by Friendly Frog

And the islands near Australia which they now use as Kakapo sanctuary have been cleared from invasive rodents too before they moved the Kakapos there. of success.

They cleared the small sanctuary islands first and then moved the kakapos there. They didn't reclaim the kakapos habitat for them. they moved them to a smaller area

Originally Posted by Friendly Frog

. Dismissing the project based on the generalisation that snakes don't eat dead prey without checking whether this is true for this specific snake for instance only says more about our lack of expertise than theirs. (For instance, I'm really interested in finding out how the snakes are supposed to get the mice off them parachutes. Seems like an obvious problem... But I'm not going to assume they haven't thought of that yet.)

Harping on a conceded point also says something about you. Missesdash's first article failed to address an apparent obvious flaw based on typical snakes. Her second article did adress it and claimed that this particular snake is one of the rare exceptions

Originally Posted by Friendly Frog

That said, it pays to think fighting invasive pests through thoroughly before one begins. We've had far too many miss-fires in the past from people who really should have known better indeed. So it's good to question the methods used for specific pest-control, but that sort of thing usually is more effective when well-informed.

What surprises and saddens me is that we can eridicate many species (numerous ones too like the passenger pigeon) quickly and often almost accidentally. But that we seldom manage to do so when we want and need to, to protect native habitat. What does that say about humanity's effectiveness?

that a rushed study on a 15 acre plot and using that to do the same to the entire ecosystem is bound to have negative unforseen effects.

Originally Posted by AncientEagle

It's obvious we've had a lot of well-intentioned efforts to eradicate invasive species, that ended up causing totally different problems as bad as or worse than the original problem. That said, though, what can be done to solve Guam's problem with the brown tree snake? Pray? Practice voodoo? Learn to add brown tree snakes to the diet?

Did they get any of the birds to sanctuaries first? If they could magically get rid of the snakes, can they even reintroduce the birds or did they already wait too late? It appears that the brown treesnake took the spot of the apex predator and advanced to superpredator.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/cerc/dan...regularis.html

The only known natural predators of the brown tree snake are pigs and monitor lizards.

Guam has both. Why has the normal dynamic of predator prey balance failed? AFAIK it's becuase this particular snake is a non-selective food oppurtunist that breeds very quickly. The article above also says that they are trying to tweak a paramyxovirus to kill the snakes. I wonder if the lizards will be susceptible or if they've already abandoned the virus idea? Humans are also susceptible to some of those viruses. Maybe they need to study peafowl?

[Friendly Frog]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

They cleared the small sanctuary islands first and then moved the kakapos there. They didn't reclaim the kakapos habitat for them. they moved them to a smaller area

Yes, but we were talking about islands, weren't we, and this case fits the bill. Islands just are easier to clear of invasive species than main land. You didn't specify it had to be only orginal, historical habitat.

And while it was not their original habitat on the main land that was cleared, it still is a wild habitat suitable for Kakapo that had invasive non-native animals successfully removed. The current habitat is comparable to the orginal one, insomuch it even has the specific tree that influences Kakapo reproduction cycles and the latest island has a plant that has been found in ancient kakapo coprolites.

It's not like there were so many kakapos left to begin with, so the smaller area is not as much of an issue, I think. I am ignorant of the original, historical size of Kakapo habitat, so I don't know what areas we are comparing here. But considering there are now three to five islands in the Kakapo-project (if I recall correctly) there does not appear to be lack of space so far. I'm pretty sure repopulation on the main land remains a goal, once population levels on the island are good enough. But then the kakapo is very difficult about reproducing in the first place.

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Did they get any of the birds to sanctuaries first? If they could magically get rid of the snakes, can they even reintroduce the birds or did they already wait too late?

A bit of both, it appears. According to this article many bird species have gone extinct in 50-odd years the snakes have been present but efforts have been made to maintain and breed captive populations of those they could still find, for release after the snakes are under control. A number of sources say that ten out twelve endemic forest-birds are extinct, likely due to the snakes. That doesn't leave a whole lot to repopulate afterwards, mind.

Man, the things you come across when trying to locate a specific fact. I may never look at these snakes the same way.

[quicklime]

Originally Posted by mccardey

Frankly, I don't care so much about the cat thing. But Malaya (as was) did something very similar to this after the war and it didn't end well....

Do tell....the toxicologist and herpetologist who had a friend stationed in Guam in me are both very interested in this.....

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by Friendly Frog

Yes, but we were talking about islands, weren't we, and this case fits the bill. Islands just are easier to clear of invasive species than main land. You didn't specify it had to be only orginal, historical habitat.

And while it was not their original habitat on the main land that was cleared, it still is a wild habitat suitable for Kakapo that had invasive non-native animals successfully removed. The current habitat is comparable to the orginal one, insomuch it even has the specific tree that influences Kakapo reproduction cycles and the latest island has a plant that has been found in ancient kakapo coprolites.

It's not like there were so many kakapos left to begin with, so the smaller area is not as much of an issue, I think. I am ignorant of the original, historical size of Kakapo habitat, so I don't know what areas we are comparing here. But considering there are now three to five islands in the Kakapo-project (if I recall correctly) there does not appear to be lack of space so far. I'm pretty sure repopulation on the main land remains a goal, once population levels on the island are good enough. But then the kakapo is very difficult about reproducing in the first place.


A bit of both, it appears. According to this article many bird species have gone extinct in 50-odd years the snakes have been present but efforts have been made to maintain and breed captive populations of those they could still find, for release after the snakes are under control. A number of sources say that ten out twelve endemic forest-birds are extinct, likely due to the snakes. That doesn't leave a whole lot to repopulate afterwards, mind.

Man, the things you come across when trying to locate a specific fact. I may never look at these snakes the same way.

No, I was in no way restricting the discussion to islands. Wild habitat is wild habitat. I even brought up the topic of Australia which I suppose you could call an island but that would be like calling a 5 pound skin cancer shaped like Jay Lenno's head just a blemish.

Kakapo reservations of ever decreasing size are not a long term viable solution. this is not a success story. It's yet again a story of interim mitigation. Maybe there's room on those islands for some of Guam's birds? It's still just a stop gap measure.

As is always the case with invasive species it's going to be one of permanently altering the ecosystem to try to deal with the permanently altered ecosytem. Were it something large and restricted to a small area like say goats on an island, you could simply hunt them to extinction, but then that is not an invasive species. That is a pest.

Poisons don't work in the long run. They poison other critters and the intended learn to avoid them. They need to realize that constant intervention by people is not the solution. that is only a stop gap. They need a predator to prey on the snakes that won't prey on the birds or alter the ecosystem so badly that the birds can't eat or breed. It's sort of like how some people are saying that pythons might be starting to keep nutria in check in some areas of the gulf states and both are edible (if you can catchem them). It's a terrible solution but better than blindly poisoning the entire system.

Mongoose can climb and eat eggs so they probably won't work. I still wonder if peafowl would help?

[Friendly Frog]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Kakapo reservations of ever decreasing size are not a long term viable solution. this is not a success story. It's yet again a story of interim mitigation. Maybe there's room on those islands for some of Guam's birds? It's still just a stop gap measure.

Considering they're still adding islands to the project, I don't think we can speak of reservations of ever decreasing size in this case. There haven't been kakapos on New Zealand for a while now. The breeding programme started with only one island, they now have more.

But it is a success story in the way that they've managed to clear those specific reservation islands of rodents and other invasive predators that could otherwise decimate the kakapo population.

Yet I agree that when considering the kakapo rather than the invasive-species-free state of the islands, then yes, it is an interim mitigation.

I even assume the team looking after the kakapo thinks likewise. And I daresay they don't consider the population of kakapos on islands as the ultimate goal. But you've got to have a sturdy population first before you can think of repopulating historical habitat that is currently not as pest-free. It is a necessary step if you want to go long-term and hope to reintroduce kakapos back to their native habitat. You've got to stabilise the population first, and you can't do it in situ. It'd be rather heart-breaking to clear main land areas of pests, only to find out the species you were trying to protect died out in the mean time.

It reminds me of the situation with frogs and the chytrid fungus (nasty bugger too). Several frog species have died out in the wild in a frightening short period of time due to the fungus. Conservationists have made quite some mad dashes to collect as much frogs as they could for off site breeding facility as the original habitat is infected with the fungus and a danger to any frog remaining. But unfortunately, as always in conservation, budgets are ever limited.

As is always the case with invasive species it's going to be one of permanently altering the ecosystem to try to deal with the permanently altered ecosytem.

It remains to be seen if the poisoned-mouse-project will lead to permanently altering the original ecosystem. That the snakes have done so is, alas, already confirmed. I've just read an interesting article about a study considering the health of the Guam forests in this. Many of the trees there have depended on birds to disperse their seeds. With now so many of the birds extinct, it remains to be seen if even eridicating the snakes can still save the forest in the long run. Frightening stuff.

Were it something large and restricted to a small area like say goats on an island, you could simply hunt them to extinction, but then that is not an invasive species. That is a pest.

You don't consider goats as invasive species? I'm confused. Do you make a distinction between invasive species and pests based on whether you can also eat them?

They need a predator to prey on the snakes that won't prey on the birds or alter the ecosystem so badly that the birds can't eat or breed. It's sort of like how some people are saying that pythons might be starting to keep nutria in check in some areas of the gulf states and both are edible (if you can catchem them). It's a terrible solution but better than blindly poisoning the entire system.

Actually, I think poison can be a far better solution to pest control than to bring in yet more invasive animals. Any predator you need to control the snakes will be a non-native and will have no natural predators either. That is the classic cane toad problem.

Poison has a certain life-span and is not re-producing. Depending on what substance is used, naturally, some do linger long in the environment. Poison can be better controlled since it can't escape and proliferate, and will pose no danger after a certain period to any creature. The fact that they turn to poison and not live animals to combat the snakes is an indication to me that they know fighting invasive species with invasive species nearly always has ended badly.

It be interesting to know whether there is any bird or other animal left on Guam that would feed on dead mice.

[Mharvey]

Originally Posted by Don

Yeah, this is gonna turn out just peachy.

Don, skeptical of government projects? PUH-LEESE.

Yeah, I'll just watch the Late Night shows to find out how this goes. Get a few one liners to report back here.