Is honesty important in poetry

Stew21

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Did I say craft doesn't matter? Heavens. If I said that, it wasn't me saying it.

Of course it matters.
It was a response to the "poem" you posted, not what you said. Upthread you clearly stated "well-crafted" was a factor. I'm not pointing at you. Just the obviously not crafted poem. And i don't think it even qualifies as silly. :)
 
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Magdalen

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No one will like this one. It meets no criterion for honesty or anything else. It's purely silly. . . .
[FONT=Helvetica, serif]In between songs, they whisper to each other[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, serif]of micely things.[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, serif]The moon is unaware of the mice and sails serenely on[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, serif]about her moonly business,[/FONT]

. . . .

I dunno, parts are kinda cute, especially if one thinks of the moon as a giant chunk of cheese. . .
 

Kylabelle

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Language is a bitch. And that's all I've got to say about it.

Cassandra, I'm glad someone's keeping track. :D

Good night, friends.
 

poetinahat

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Re: This Is What You Get: It's quite interesting, but I admit that I don't understand it, exactly. I'll be interested to hear others' reactions.

Reading the first three stanzas in connection with the title, I get a sense that "what you get" in life is essentially random -- a collection of details without meaning or order.

. . .

So that's where I am when I get to the fourth stanza. And then I can't understand where individual remorse comes into it.

That's a personal reaction, of course. And I might just be thick. I truly do not think a poem can ever strike a chord with every person.
No, that's it. I didn't intend any message, other than that words are musical outside of their meaning, and that music can be enough for me.

Meaning is great, but I can get meaning in prose. Poems have to deliver something more, so this was really an exercise to demonstrate that music without any meaning at all.

Cocteau Twins took this point a step further: their lyrics often weren't even real words, but beautiful-sounding syllables.

I included 'remorse' simply because it almost rhymes with 'worse'. The last sentence is really just an apology to the reader.
 

Stew21

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Language is a bitch. And that's all I've got to say about it.

Cassandra, I'm glad someone's keeping track. :D

Good night, friends.

Language is. Hope you don't think i am. I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

Sorry. I didn't lose track.
 

CassandraW

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No, that's it. I didn't intend any message, other than that words are musical outside of their meaning, and that music can be enough for me.

Meaning is great, but I can get meaning in prose. Poems have to deliver something more, so this was really an exercise to demonstrate that music without any meaning at all.

Cocteau Twins took this point a step further: their lyrics often weren't even real words, but beautiful-sounding syllables.

I included 'remorse' simply because it almost rhymes with 'worse'. The last sentence is really just an apology to the reader.

Got it. That's interesting; I'm always interested in people's theories behind what they write. I'll do another read of it with that in mind. FWIW, I did get interested in the language. But then I got caught up in trying to understand the significance of the last stanza

I do like and appreciate music in poetry, though. I always read my stuff aloud as I'm writing to hear how it sounds, even when it's free verse. I read other people's stuff aloud, too -- sometimes I catch nuances I missed.

I went through a phase where (after heavy influence from a much-admired professor), I ruthlessly removed all rhyme and meter from my poetry. It's funny -- rhymed, metered lines would spring into my head, and I'd reject them precisely because they were musical.

I now think that's silly. A couple of the things I wrote during that period actually aren't bad, IMO -- but it's certainly not because I took all the rhyme out of them!
 
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Kylabelle

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Language is. Hope you don't think i am. I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

Sorry. I didn't lose track.

It's entirely my fault. I have not got the focus for this thread right now. Hope no one has taken any of my comments personally. I do really need to sign off....

Perhaps another take tomorrow.
 

William Haskins

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isn't it interesting how just about any discussion of the efficacy of poetry crystallizes into form vs function, style vs substance?
 

CassandraW

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isn't it interesting how just about any discussion of the efficacy of poetry crystallizes into form vs function, style vs substance?

followed, of course, by the spankings and oral sex.
 

Stew21

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It's entirely my fault. I have not got the focus for this thread right now. Hope no one has taken any of my comments personally. I do really need to sign off....

Perhaps another take tomorrow.

No worries. All good. No fault either.
 
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William Haskins

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Cocteau Twins took this point a step further: their lyrics often weren't even real words, but beautiful-sounding syllables.

but we must also remember what the original cocteau said: "if a poet has a dream, it is not of becoming famous, but of being believed.”
 

poetinahat

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but we must also remember what the original cocteau said: "if a poet has a dream, it is not of becoming famous, but of being believed.”

Well played, sir.

I note that the quote is 'being believed', not 'revealing the truth' or even 'being understood'.
 

poetinahat

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Got it. That's interesting; I'm always interested in people's theories behind what they write. I'll do another read of it with that in mind. FWIW, I did get interested in the language. But then I got caught up in trying to understand the significance of the last stanza

Which, one might say, could be a fault in the composition - I wanted to wrap things up in the end, and I think I did. Perhaps it would've been better if I'd done so without leaving a suggestion of significance.

I went through a phase where (after heavy influence from a much-admired professor), I ruthlessly removed all rhyme and meter from my poetry. It's funny -- rhymed, metered lines would spring into my head, and I'd reject them precisely because they were musical.

I now think that's silly. A couple of the things I wrote during that period actually aren't bad, IMO -- but it's certainly not because I took all the rhyme out of them!

It sounds like a really important progression - first, to understand that rhyme and meter are not essential poetic elements. Second, to understand that excluding them completely is also a very heavy restriction on expression.

I really enjoy the insights we're sharing here, and what a waste of time this forum would be if we all had the same opinions.
 

CassandraW

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I'm thick as a brick, with a talent for the obvious.

If one believes something, is it not because one believes it is the truth?

The poet may not, in fact, be telling the truth. You may be misunderstanding it. But if you believe a poem, aren't you saying that (in your view at least) it is "honest?"
 

CassandraW

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I really enjoy the insights we're sharing here, and what a waste of time this forum would be if we all had the same opinions.


I totally agree. I plan to go back and reread some of everyone's work with the perspective I've gained from this thread.
 

Magdalen

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but we must also remember what the original cocteau said: "if a poet has a dream, it is not of becoming famous, but of being believed.”

Well played, sir.

I note that the quote is 'being believed', not 'revealing the truth' or even 'being understood'.

Thanks, William, I hadn't heard that. Thinking about it reminded me of Coleridge's suspension of disbelief to infuse a "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgement" which turned the honesty requirement on its head (for me) long ago. And then there's this nagging idea that it's even better to be "believed" when it's NOT true or honest. Course that could just be my contrary poet/polyp syndrome. Heh.
 

poetinahat

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I'm thick as a brick, with a talent for the obvious.
Bullshit. You're brilliant and talented, and damn fine with a triolet.
If one believes something, is it not because one believes it is the truth?

The poet may not, in fact, be telling the truth. You may be misunderstanding it. But if you believe a poem, aren't you saying that (in your view at least) it is "honest?"
Yes. But if I want you to believe me, you are doing the believing; I'm only doing the telling. Whether I tell the truth may or may not be relevant.
 

William Haskins

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beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
 

Stew21

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Example: Thorn Forest.

Do i think it is an honest biographical account of someone named Jacob?

No. But It isn't intended to be. But it is believable down to every character and scene. I bought in to the poem and am still cliffhanging. Hanging by my bittendown nails.
 
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CassandraW

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Bullshit. You're brilliant and talented, and damn fine with a triolet.

Thank you for the lovely compliment, though I don't feel I quite measure up to it.

I do adore that triolet thread. I love playing with form and rhyme. Though I'm especially happy if I also feel I've captured a kernel of truth there somewhere.

Yes. But if I want you to believe me, you are doing the believing; I'm only doing the telling. Whether I tell the truth may or may not be relevant.

Yes, I agree.

My own poems do very often relate to an experience I've had, as I said, but as I also said, that's me. I certainly don't think poems need to do that to be good.

And without craft, it isn't a poem.
 

CassandraW

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Example: Thorn Forest.

Do i think it is an honest biographical account of someone named Jacob?

No. But It isn't intended to be. But it is believable down to every character and scene. I bought in to the poem and am still cliffhanging. Hanging by my bittendown nails
nails


It isn't biographical.

But it is true.