Outlandish - is it bad?

LJackson · Jan 23, 2015

I sent my manuscript to a couple of beta readers. The first one, of course, is my dear husband, who is an avid reader. He loved the story, and tried to sneak out of his office so he could head to Denny to read it.

The next one is a friend, also a avid reader. I originally sent her the first part, about 120K words, because I didn't want to be pushy, and she called to demand the remainder when she finished it. Not sure how she did it, but she finished the 460K words in two weeks. Her comments were similar to my husband's, needing works in prose especially in the beginning of first part, but the whole story was intriguing and she loved the vivid characterizations.

Now here is the interesting part of her comment, and why I am posting here. She kept saying it was so very imaginative, and so outlandish, that she kept thinking someone was going to wake up, and find out that was all a dream.

Is this a bad thing?

Maze Runner · Jan 23, 2015

It would only be an opinion, I'd think, but for myself I'd have to know more about just what is outlandish about it to offer my opinion. By the way, congratulations on finishing your novel. That's a big book!

LJackson · Jan 23, 2015

The female protagonist goes through some very strange spiritual journey; plus, I create a hidden world that has a symbiotic relationship with the one we live in, combine some Greek mythology (Hades) with my belief (Buddhism and Taoism), plus some that are just plain made up by me. The premise is that Hades and this world are two sides of the same coin, one cannot survive without the other one. I think she was shocked because I was not creating a brand new world as in Lord of Rings, but presenting a new way of seeing the one we live in. It is really not that outlandish in Buddhism or Taoism, but quite different from Christianity I think.

Maze Runner · Jan 23, 2015

I'd say as long as the hidden world serves the story, it would be fine by me.

Lonegungrrly · Jan 23, 2015

460k? Is this one novel?

LJackson · Jan 23, 2015

Lonegungrrly said:
460k? Is this one novel?

Yes... sigh... The book can be divided into three parts, each representing a milestone in the female protagonist's journey, but it is really one story, her journey. I am toying the idea of publishing the first part but my friend thought I should try to get it published as one. She said she wanted the remainder when she finished the first part, and was glad that she did not have to wait.

cornflake · Jan 23, 2015

LJackson said:
I sent my manuscript to a couple of beta readers. The first one, of course, is my dear husband, who is an avid reader. He loved the story, and tried to sneak out of his office so he could head to Denny to read it.

The next one is a friend, also a avid reader. I originally sent her the first part, about 120K words, because I didn't want to be pushy, and she called to demand the remainder when she finished it. Not sure how she did it, but she finished the 460K words in two weeks. Her comments were similar to my husband's, needing works in prose especially in the beginning of first part, but the whole story was intriguing and she loved the vivid characterizations.

Now here is the interesting part of her comment, and why I am posting here. She kept saying it was so very imaginative, and so outlandish, that she kept thinking someone was going to wake up, and find out that was all a dream.

Is this a bad thing?

It's one person, and it'd depend on their personal vocabulary, really.

I mean I wouldn't think that sounded good, no, but I've met people who use words in odd ways.

However, you've had two beta readers who weren't really beta readers. You need real betas, I'd think. People who aren't beholden to you in any way, or who are writers or editors who are really willing to go to the wall - some critique/writing groups out there seem to specialize in everyone getting good feedback.

Gringa · Jan 23, 2015

I'd take outlandish as a compliment.

paddismac · Jan 23, 2015

I would find "outlandish" to be an odd choice of words when referring to fantasy or magical realism. One goes into either of those genres knowing that anything might happen and be totally normal in that world.

I would ask for clarification. Was she aware from the start that the manuscript wasn't mainstream contemporary 'realism'? (heh, my visual artist is showing!)

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 23, 2015

cornflake said:
However, you've had two beta readers who weren't really beta readers. You need real betas, I'd think. People who aren't beholden to you in any way, or who are writers or editors who are really willing to go to the wall

I agree. Family and friends are not reliable. They don't want to hurt your feelings, and you're more willing to accept their sugar coating as truth because... well, they wouldn't lie to you, would they?

Never let you parent/spouse teach you to drive, or crit your novel

LJackson · Jan 23, 2015

paddismac, she did not know what the story was about when she agreed to take it on. Maybe I should have warned her.

I do have to say though, these two beta readers do not love me enough to blow smoke up my ass, lol, and that was why I asked them. My friend is an English Literature major from the University of Texas, and my husband - on well, let me just say I sure am glad they invented Kindle because our house is bloated with his books. You should see the edit my husband gave me. It was like the whole pages were covered with red inks.

Now, yes, I do need to find more beta readers that are unrelated to me - anyone volunteer? But at this point of time, my main concern is whether the story is riveting. I'm not going to make anybody else suffer if it does not pass the first bar. I intentionally gave them only the first part to begin with, just so I could see whether they wanted to continue.

shortstorymachinist · Jan 23, 2015

LJackson said:
Now here is the interesting part of her comment, and why I am posting here. She kept saying it was so very imaginative, and so outlandish, that she kept thinking someone was going to wake up, and find out that was all a dream.

Is this a bad thing?

I would also say it depends, but in general probably a compliment.
What was her tone like? "This is so outlandish..." or "Haha, this is so outlandish!" I think the more important thing is to get those unbiased betas, because even friends/family determined to do a good job might overcompensate. Not that I'm saying you husband and friend have done so, but it's worth a note.

cornflake · Jan 23, 2015

LJackson said:
paddismac, she did not know what the story was about when she agreed to take it on. Maybe I should have warned her.

I do have to say though, these two beta readers do not love me enough to blow smoke up my ass, lol, and that was why I asked them. My friend is an English Literature major from the University of Texas, and my husband - on well, let me just say I sure am glad they invented Kindle because our house is bloated with his books. You should see the edit my husband gave me. It was like the whole pages were covered with red inks.

Now, yes, I do need to find more beta readers that are unrelated to me - anyone volunteer? But at this point of time, my main concern is whether the story is riveting. I'm not going to make anybody else suffer if it does not pass the first bar. I intentionally gave them only the first part to begin with, just so I could see whether they wanted to continue.

Honestly, everyone thinks that of their friends - but very rarely would someone's good friend or spouse actually say something like 'this is a scrap-and-redo,' or 'I just can't read this anymore.'

It's the same reason friends and family often *don't* read books you'd (the generic you) offer them, because they know that no matter how much you might say, and really feel you mean, or even do mean, that you want honesty, it's too hard to say, 'I just couldn't get past page 20 without wanting to stick my head in the Vitamix.' So people say they want to read your book, but then are busy or will get to it or whatever, because they don't want to go prancing about a minefield.

Yours did read it - and said they liked it. They may have truly liked it, but you simply can't separate out the fact that they're your friend and spouse from their crit. It's like you trying to critique your kid's ballet recital, you know? Even if you know the kid tipped over twice you're going to have found the good that let you enjoy it. Someone else was rolling their eyes while you were admiring her beatific smile.

There are rare occasions where it works - professional writers married to professional editors I've seen work, where neither one is really coming at the stuff with a 'this is my/your heart and soul on the paper' feeling about it. When either party does have that feeling, all the good intentions in the world just can't beat someone uninvolved, imo, heh.

That said, while I'm not volunteering, as it's not my genre and holy crap 460k - you're free to post a couple thousand words in SYW and see what people think. You'll get a larger sample of crits and you'll be amazed what people can tell from just that bit.

dondomat · Jan 24, 2015

Half a million words is probably too much for a first novel. Maybe dividing it into the three aforementioned pieces could work. Although King publishes books that size and the public asks for more (The Stand, IT).
Nevertheless, I think agents and editors will be more likely to take a chance on something which is 100K+ words and the first of three books, then on the whole bunch.

Once! · Jan 24, 2015

LJackson said:
She kept saying it was so very imaginative, and so outlandish, that she kept thinking someone was going to wake up, and find out that was all a dream.

Is this a bad thing?

Why don't you ask her?

Sometimes people speak in code when they don't want to hurt our feelings, but they don't want to lie either. They use words like "interesting", "unusual" and "unconventional". You should have heard the terms that my wife (a Downton Abbey sort of gal) came up with when I asked her to proof-read a science fiction novel.

Right now, you are staring at the word "outlandish" and wondering if it means "outlandish, good" or "outlandish, not good." I can't tell you that. I don't know your beta reader, I don't know you, I haven't seen your book.

If you know her well enough, you could have a conversation. Or look for a third opinion. SYW is a good start. I'd be happy to beta read some of it, but like everyone else I am slightly goggling at 460k words.

Sorry - I'm doing it now. That last bit was accidentally written in code trying not to hurt your feelings. Let me say what I am really thinking - 460k sounds to be waaaay too much. By a factor of four. Approx.

Mind you, that could be good news. You might be well on your way to writing a series.

ArtsyAmy · Jan 24, 2015

I agree with others that there's no telling what your friend meant by "outlandish" without asking her. And if she was using the word to try to be nice--the same way people sometimes use "interesting"--maybe you don't want to press things by asking her what she meant. The conversation could become uncomfortable. Maybe just look for other beta readers.

The length of your novel keeps coming up in posts. I think you'd be more likely to get beta readers if they could read a completed novel that's about a fourth as long as what yours currently is. I'd be more willing to beta read a complete 100,000-word novel than the first 100,000 words of a 460,000-word novel. Maybe you'd want to consider making changes so that things wrap up nicely enough a quarter way through that you can end the novel there and readers would be satisified, and they would also be looking for the next in the series. And do the same with the next quarter, etc. It's your novel, of course...just my humbly offered thoughts.

Hope things go well with your project.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 24, 2015

Not even many top selling writers could slip a novel that long past an editor. The risk of losing a LOT of money is too great, and there are other, practical problems, as well.

If it divides properly, selling it as a trilogy might be possible, but even that will not be easy in any way.

Even a novel half this long is an incredibly tough sell for a new writer.

And as others have said, the worst possible beta readers are friends and family. Even if they truly love the novel, it really means nothing except they truly love it. . .which can often be because they truly love you.

WriteMinded · Jan 24, 2015

RE Outlandish: Does your friend read much fantasy? If not, almost any SFF novel might seem outlandish to her. But if she does, well you must have a very unusual book, indeed.

Word count is likely a problem. My books, which are way too long for a new writer, run about 140k.

LJackson · Jan 24, 2015

Well, I did talk to her last night, about what she meant by "outlandish." She said, "What? What outlandish? I meant 'out there'...." So it was my fault after all, to fret for nothing. Yike.

On a side note, a friend of hers, a retired pilot, saw her reading it, and asked about it. She told him, "This is a friend's transcript. Part one starts out sort of normal, part two is out there, and part three is really, really out there, but I love it." So he asked to read it. She called last night to ask for permission, which of course I gave willingly. She is going to deliver the manuscript to him today. He is a very different person from my husband and her, and even a more different background, so it will be interesting to see what he thinks.

I'm not sure how to reiterate this family beta business. There are those who love you and will give you (false) positive feedback because they love you (my parents and my sister belong to this group.) And there are those who love you, and will give you honest feedback because they love you (that will be my husband and this friend). These people don't want me to fail, and the only way to guarantee my success is to be honest with me. I have a close knit of friends who are very focused on their areas of expertise, and if anything that ever taught them what life is about, is to never shy away tough decisions. They have to, in order to obtain the success they obtained.

Now of course since you don't know them, or me, it is all possible I'm simply delusional. It is OK. Your concerns are legitimate, and I appreciate them nonetheless.

I do have other betas lined up, but I don't want to give them the manuscript until the issues identified by the two two are fixed. My friend wants me to drive down to her place so we can go through the manuscript and work on the problematic areas. I need to do that first, before I subject other betas to a less than stellar manuscript, and I don't plan to give them part 2 or 3 unless they ask for them. I want that to be the gauge how they really feel about it. The ones who say I love it, but don't ask for the remainder are just being polite. The ones who ask the remainders are probably liking it. The one who starts but never finish part 1 - well, you know they hate it.

Once!, you can't hurt my feeling saying you don't want to read 460K. Hell, I won't read 100K unless it can hold me to the end, and nobody can tell me that unless I know the author, and can sort of guess what kind of deal I'm getting myself into.

eqb · Jan 24, 2015

Is this the same novel you've posted excerpts from in SYW?

LJackson · Jan 24, 2015

It's the same novel, though I'm experimenting a different beginning. The one I posted on the 200 word thread is one of the experiments, and probably the "scene" I will be using for it.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 24, 2015

LJackson said:
I'm not sure how to reiterate this family beta business. There are those who love you and will give you (false) positive feedback because they love you (my parents and my sister belong to this group.) And there are those who love you, and will give you honest feedback because they love you (that will be my husband and this friend)..

With friends and family, there is the real possibility that they genuine love it because you wrote it.

The real problem, however, isn't honesty, it's the fact that whether they love it or hate it really means nothing. This is true for most beta readers. You can find the worst piece of tripe ever written, and some will say they love it. What you need is a beta reader who knows what makes something publishable, and such beta readers are not common.

The first thing such a beta reader would say is that a novel of this length is almost certainly not publishable, even by a bestselling writer. Then, based on objective experience, which most lack, they would tell you not whether they love t or hate it, but whether it's something enough other people would enjoy to justify publishing it. If they bothered reading t at all because of its huge length.

I don't know that it harms using friends and family, but you certainly still need an outside, experienced beta reader.

LJackson · Jan 24, 2015

So, Jamesaritchie, your biggest concern is the word count, eh? I know it is problematic, but I'm just have to put it in the back burner for the time being, and focus on the story itself. If the story isn't good, the correct word count isn't going to do me any good. If the story is good, then I can worry about the word count, and I may have a couple of ways to make the first part a stand alone. And if I can't, and the word count turns out to be an insurmountable obstacle, well, at least, I can share it with friends who don't mind gigantic books. I wrote this book because it was the story I wanted to read, not because my livelihood depends on the sale.

amergina · Jan 24, 2015

Mod Note:

Gently folks, on all sides.

Remember to assume good intentions.

eqb · Jan 24, 2015

Speaking purely as a reader, I love long books. It's not the number of words that matters to me, but whether all those words are the right ones. (Same for short books, to be honest.)

That said, if you want to get an agent and sell your book to a trade publisher, the reality is that most will be turned off when they see 460k. You have several choices. You can split the book into four parts. You can cut the book down. You could do both and end up with two books of 100k each.

There's also self publishing. Taking that route doesn't automatically give you a get out of ~~jail~~ editing free card, however. As you said, the story comes first.

So. You have feedback from friends, and from AW. My advice would be to let the comments simmer a couple weeks. Tackle the opening chapters again, then get a couple new beta readers to look at the result.

Outlandish - is it bad?

LJackson

Maze Runner

LJackson

Maze Runner

Lonegungrrly

LJackson

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Gringa

paddismac

Parasite free since '09

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

LJackson

shortstorymachinist

The score is still Q to 12!

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

dondomat

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

ArtsyAmy

Jamesaritchie

WriteMinded

Derailed

LJackson

eqb

I write novels

LJackson

Jamesaritchie

LJackson

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong

eqb

I write novels