Terse epistolary = big risk, little payout, hard sell?

Hapax Legomenon said:

big risk, little payout, hard sell?

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All of the above.

Carried to the extreme, what you've described sounds like a novel made up of tweets. But—as others have said before me—it's all in the execution.

Post your opening. That's the only way anyone could offer a grounded opinion.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I just started a new novel. I guess because the plot is relatively straightforward I wanted to have some fun with the style. I've started it out in epistolary format but the thing is that the first several entries, at least, are very terse. It takes a little while for the character to write more than a basic log.

I kind of feel like the majority of epistolary novels are written with very verbose POVs and kind of require some suspension of disbelief. Many times I've read them and wondered "who would write a journal/letter this way?" because there's a lot of what could be copy-pasted into a book written as normal prose.

So I guess I want opinions on epistolary stories that are not written that way. I think I've seen it done successfully in short stories but not really in anything long.

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You should read my journal. Every word of it could be put in a book as is. Who would write such a way? The person who writes in such a way. You make the character fit the writing style. How many real journals and letters have you read? They range from brief, terse entries, to teh most verbose, to the most beautiful, prose you can find.

As the writer, yu create a character who would write in the necessary way, whatever that way is, and you also decide how soon the character gets to the good stuff. Many journals, diaries, or letters get started because something bad has happened, and the person wants, or needs, to write about it. Such things do not have several entries before the real trouble starts.


As for big risk, little payout, and hard sell, it all depends on how well you write it, how good the story is, and how much readers want to spend time with the character(s). There are some seriously wonderful, famous, and money-making epistolary novels and novels as journals, out there. Some are even classics. Like everything else, such a novel yields to treatment.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I kind of feel like the majority of epistolary novels are written with very verbose POVs and kind of require some suspension of disbelief. Many times I've read them and wondered "who would write a journal/letter this way?" because there's a lot of what could be copy-pasted into a book written as normal prose.

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Doesn't all fiction (of all mediums: books, tv, movies, comics, video games, etc) require some suspension of belief? (And some stories more than others?)

Think about how people talk in real life vs fiction. Obviously, we (usually) can't write dialogue in fiction exactly like people really talk in real life. Some people include lots of "ums, uhs,", repetiative phrases, pauses, etc. There are lots of mundane stuff people do in real life that we usually wouldn't include unless they're relevant to the story, like going to the bathroom, sleeping, etc.

With fictional journals and diaries, it's one of those things in fiction where you have to suspend your belief. For some people, it's a bit of a stretch, while with other people, it's not.

For me, even with some first-person narration, I have to suspend my belief, especially with something like first-person present tense narration, etc.

It's also a preference or taste thing, too. Some people don't like stories that is filled entirely with letter/journal/diary entries, others don't mind a little bit or don't want them in a story at all.

The biggest problem with terse entries (for me, anyway) is that there may not be much happening in those first entries. Are you filling in narration in between the entries, or is your story is just entries?

Like anything else, it would depend on how you write it. A sample in SYW may help....

Hapax Legomenon said:

I don't know. Usually when reading writing from people who do not usually write fiction, their writing does not sound like fiction. And I think in a lot of epistolary novels some of the entries sound like fiction. Because it is fiction... I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone here.

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Learned people write learned letters and journals. I don't think any of the epistolary novels I've read sound like like a novel, they simply sounded like the character who was writing 8it. Some are clipped and primitive, and some are very learned.

Really, what does fiction sound like? There must be a thousand types and styles of fiction writing. Letters and journals are written in first person, and as I asked , just how many real journals and letters have you read? History is full of them, and no two read alike. Nor should any two first person novels.

But what does first person fiction sound like? If it sounds like anything other than a real person telling you what really happened to him, it's poor first person. A real journal, or series of letters, is the same.

Looking at this list on Wikipedia, there are some that have gone down as classics (Fanny Hill, Dracula, The Screwtape Letters, Bridget Jones's Diary, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Griffin and Sabine, World War Z) so I think it pretty much goes with anything that anybody writes: as long as it's executed well and holds a reader's attention, why not try it?

Particularly in a diary that is not meant to be read by anybody but the writer, and the writer is not really a fiction writer or good storyteller, even, that sort of storytelling seems... much less likely to happen.

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I think bunny-gypsy has hit the nail on the head here - we don't write dialogue they way people actually talk. You don't need to write your novel the way most people would write in their diary.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I don't know. Usually when reading writing from people who do not usually write fiction, their writing does not sound like fiction.

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Hapax Legomenon said:

Particularly in a diary that is not meant to be read by anybody but the writer, and the writer is not really a fiction writer or good storyteller, even, that sort of storytelling seems... much less likely to happen.

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I think you might be trying too hard for realism to the point of unnecessarily boxing yourself in already. They don't have to sound like any one random person who just happens to be jotting down a few, short things not really worthy of note before getting to an interesting bit.

I wonder how much of the character's been figured out yet. If you don't wish for them to simply play the role of observer and nothing more, it could be that you're having a problem because you're attempting to shut them into that role anyway. Your character does not have to be neutral, brief or incapable of creating suspense in order for the entries to feel genuine.

As for much of the suspense needing to be written between the lines, perhaps the character should be not be so distanced from their own story. They should be expressive in their entries, detailing their theories, their confusion, their conflict with what they're being told by the rest of the world versus what they think to be the truth. Speculations and uncertainties can lend to creating of suspense.

If the writer of these entries must remain the character you already have, think about why and if they've been fully-fleshed out yet. What makes them an interesting and complex enough character that would make them worth listening to despite them not being storytellers? What kind of mind would it take for a character to be able to draw readers in with their scattered, intimate thoughts portrayed in a way that comes across all the more intriguing precisely because they feel they're writing for themselves alone.

Sounds like you already might have decided what to do.

Hope some of that helps anyway.

Wow. I apparently need to brush up on my writing styles terminology. Saw 'epistolary' in the thread title and had no clue what you meant. So, that's right, I Googled it.

Read the definition and went "Oh! Like Bram Stoker's Dracula! Why didn't anyone say that?" Then I read the responses to the post. Sorry BenPanced, my inner bard didn't realize.

Okay, so I think this style for an entire book is too much myself. I tried a half-dozen times to read Dracula over the years and I just could not do it. I got frustrated within the first handful of pages and stormed downstairs to watch Gary Oldman own the scene.

However, used as a break or a change of pace, I think it works wonders. My current WIP has a chapter about half-way through where I needed a gap in time, but didn't want to just be "And five years later..." like a bad movie fade. My mind pictured something much closer to the scene in Braveheart where Wallace runs around getting payback and all the people are talking about the 'legends of William Wallace'.

So I took that chapter and had zero narrative. I filled it with journal entries, official records, and letters written by most lower-tiered characters. Only one letter was written by one of the main characters and that was because she was discussing things she would have discussed no other way, and it helped further develop her.

My all-time favorite book, "Shatterpoint" by Matthew Stover, includes occasional breaks in the normal narrative to show journal entries from Mace Windu. These insights help develop the complexity of the story and are even sometimes used as plot devices themselves.

The core of what you're asking seems to be you have a journal style where there's more telling than showing. So it's not showing an event as it happens (as novel narratives tend to do), but someone telling the reader about it afterwards.

One short I had in this style got rejected from somewhere for exactly that reason (too much telling). Then accepted at the next place. So it's not a complete dealbreaker as a format, but there's a lot resting on the voice of the journal/letter writer. Their insights have to go beyond the average boring diary that most people would write if you gave it to them as a task. No reader is going to stick with ten entries of brushing teeth and feeding the cats in the hopes the writer will finally say something interesting.

In other words, cut the beginning where your character is writing a basic day-to-day log. Start when they stop doing this, and start writing something more.

bunny-gypsy said:

Doesn't all fiction (of all mediums: books, tv, movies, comics, video games, etc) require some suspension of belief? (And some stories more than others?)

Think about how people talk in real life vs fiction. Obviously, we (usually) can't write dialogue im fiction exactly like people really talk in real life. Some people include lots of "ums, uhs,", repetiative phrases, pauses, etc. There are lots of mundane stuff people do in real life that we usually wouldn't include unless they're relevant to the story, like going to the bathroom, sleeping, etc.

With fictional journals and diaries, it's one of those things in fiction where you have to suspend your belief. For some people, it's a bit of a stretch, while with other people, it's not.

For me, even with some first-person narration, I have to suspend my belief, especially with something like first-person present tense narration, etc.

It's also a preference or taste thing, too. Some people don't like stories that is filled entirely with letter/journal/diary entries, others don't mind a little bit or don't want them in a story at all.

The biggest problem with terse entries (for me, anyway) is that there may not be much happening in those first entries. Are you filling in narration in between the entries, or is your story is just entries?

Like anything else, it would depend on how you write it. A sample in SYW may help....

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TTW (TvTropes warning): Acceptable breaks from reality

Hapax Legomenon said:

@Polenth: It may start as a day-to-day log but what he's doing day-to-day is weird, I guess. Kid seems to be haunted by a ghost and the main purpose of the journal at first is to keep track of whether he sees it or not, but he treats it like an every-day (obnoxious) occurrence.

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He's not a real person who has decided to keep a log of ghost sightings for his own eyes only. He's a character you control and you're writing for readers. Real diaries are often duller than a bag of rocks, but you need to get away from trying to make it as really real as possible. It only has to feel like it's real to the reader. So you can cut six months of normal life with the odd glimpse of a ghost, and get down to the part where the ghost eats a cat and the kid gets the blame (or whatever happens that switches it from basic log to something people will want to read).

This is an interesting thread because I've written novel written entirely as a journal, but my mc seems to be a lot more verbose. And he's keenly aware of his ersatz reading audience.

As for your question, I don't think 250 words is too slow to get things going. I read your excerpt over at SYW, and I was sufficiently intrigued to want to read on. But as a reader, I want story. I need something to suck me in and keep me going. And regardless of how the mc communicates, and to what degree, I want to know the mc intimately.

Your mc is reporting. For me, there has to be something more than that. Otherwise, it would likely be difficult to emotionally invest in the story your mc is telling, beyond those 250 words.

I wonder if you've considered punctuating your mc's journal entries with a diff. POV, maybe even third person omniscient. So the reader sees what's actually going on from multiple angles, then you could slip back to your mc's journal. Different versions of events . . .

Just a thought.

Whatever you decide, wishing you good luck with it.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Well it takes five entries, meaning five days and fewer than 250 words, for someone to die. But I guess that's too slow for first blood?

I've posted my first 250 words in SYW. I'll see how this goes.

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I glanced at it, and my comment stands. Real people might write diaries that way, but it doesn't make it interesting for other people to read. Who is your main character? What's the setting? What's happening to them? What do they think and feel about it?

My point wasn't that someone needs to die in the first sentence or that there's a set word count for an event to happen. It's that you need to start at the point where the journal is answering those questions and making the reader care. You could do it by expanding the earlier short entries. Or you can cut them and start where it expands. But you aren't going to sell a book that consists of a few brief notes that only have meaning to the person who wrote them. You can't leave so much between the lines that people have to write their own story to go with it.

Now I'm wondering if my vague farrier/veterinarian idea would work as a journal.

I looked at the SYW sample and didn't think it too bad.

I think I understand what you're saying, Hapax. (Please correct me if I misunderstood.)

There are some things I sort of wonder about with stories that have diary/ journal entries or letters like:

How does the "writer" remember all of those details afterward?

Or, if he/she is writing it in the "present", then when he/she did have time to write about this entire experience? I have this funny image of a character whipping out his journal in the middle of an intense fight, lol.

Like I said earlier, I think you have to suspend your belief with these kinds of things. It's like when I'm playing an adventure or RPG video game, and I have to just go with the fact that my character can carry lots of things in her inventory. XD

Even with first-person narration, you can overthink about it: Like, who's telling this story? Is it written down or recorded after the fact? Is the narrator living in the present or in the past? Etc...

ETA: Like previous posters have mentioned, when writing this style of narrative, you have to watch out for the risk of telling too much versus showing. Also, I think this kind of narrative may suit some genres better than others.

In my opinion, this type of narrative is tough to pull off; you have to write really well and make sure the character's voice and/or situation is engaging enough. For me, I have less patience with this kind of narrative, so the character has to pull me in. At least, in the beginning.

jcwriter said:

what you've described sounds like a novel made up of tweets.

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Damn I hate when somebody beats me to it.

caw

Hapax Legomenon said:

Particularly in a diary that is not meant to be read by anybody but the writer, and the writer is not really a fiction writer or good storyteller, even, that sort of storytelling seems... much less likely to happen. It's like my history teacher berated me when I was writing essays -- you're writing a goddamn history essay, take out the suspense.

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The characters in ordinary fiction don't (usually) think they're in a novel, do they? they just go on about their lives, or if it's in first person, tell us about their lives. I fail to see how a fictional journal is fundamentally different. It may format scenes a bit more discretely (as journal entries), but they're still scenes. Beyond what I've read so far, I have no idea what will happen in the next scene. Isn't suspense basically "what you don't know but think might happen"?