The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

LV Dutton · Sep 18, 2005

what are they writting a book or publishing gold? OMG that's alot of money, most authors want to make that not spend that

James D. Macdonald · Sep 18, 2005

From that article:

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Publishers are held to ever tighter margins: for some Christmas promotions, I was told, Waterstone's is demanding 65-70 per cent discount on all titles, in addition to contributions of £30,000 or more towards marketing costs for each promoted book.

and

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[/font][font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]The basic lesson, he suggests, was that, while you try to stock as diverse a range of things as possible, you don't take too many risks with what you promote, and you spread your costs.[/font]

and

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Publishers spoke to me darkly of how Waterstone's these days made them pay 'ludicrous figures' on top of the usual discounts to be involved in promotions, and then, if a promotion failed, had their books returned to them.

What you have to understand is that a "promoted" book is a term of art.

All books are "promoted" by the publishers, as you and I understand the word. It isn't true, a decade ago or now, that only a select few books were promoted and the authors had to promote all the rest on their own.

What "Promoted" means here is "stacked on the tables by the front door." It's "Promoted" as a chess pawn is "Promoted" on reaching the 8th rank. That's all it means. If a publisher wants its books stacked by the front door, they have to pay. There are far more books than square feet on those tables, and the word of the day is "all that the traffic will bear."

You didn't think books wound up there by happy chance, did you?

And you'll have heard that books only have five weeks to "make it," then they're returned. Again, folks are talking about those huge pyramids of books by the front door. After five weeks, if the public isn't interested in that book, they aren't going to get interested. So five or ten copies go onto the regular shelves in the appropriate areas of the store and the rest are returned.

True: Publishers don't "Promote" all their books. There aren't enough tables down front to put 'em on, and some books probably wouldn't sell in significant numbers even if they were stacked shoulder high on both sides of entranceway. That doesn't stop them from being published and small-p promoted.

The standard promotion that all books get is:

A listing in the publisher's catalog (and that's where the terms frontlist, midlist, and backlist come from: How close to the front of the catalog the particular title is listed.

Promotion by breathing salespersons holding copies of that catalog on calls to bookstore buyers.

Review copies sent to major review venues well in advance of publication.

Advertising to the trade, in specialized magazines for bookstores and libraries.

The extra stuff, the things that authors are complaining about when they say "My publisher didn't promote my book" are the piles by the front door, the cardboard corrugations, the shelf-talkers, the end-cap placement, the posters, and so forth and endlessly so on.

Remember that with offset presses as the press run goes up, the cost-per-unit goes down. Way down. Down to Cheaper Than Dirt. But the hardcover that cost pennies to print with a huge pressrun still has the same $24.95 cover price. Did you ever wonder why it is that Barnes&Noble can offer customers a 50% discount on NYT best sellers? It's because with the volume you're talking about they got those books at a 65% discount. They're still making 15% on each sale. And the publishers are coining money too on those books. You don't hear anyone say, "Oh no! That book's going to be a Times Bestseller. We're going to lose our shirts!" No, they say, "Why don't we publish only Times Bestsellers?"

Why do you see articles like this in various papers? Because a headline like "Business as usual, nothing much happening" doesn't sell papers.

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Memphis Ed · Sep 18, 2005

The last post by Uncle Jim...

.... is an example of why this board is such an asset.

Lady of Prose · Sep 18, 2005

Memphis Ed said:
.... is an example of why this board is such an asset.

You got that right, Ed. He's a publishing encyclopedia!

Stealth66 · Sep 18, 2005

Thanks

Thank you all for the welcome.

LV, I hope your lawyer can work something out for you. I have heard that not all can get out of their contracts even with a lawyer. I hope you will be one of those who succeed. See, I'd love to forget the book they have right now, but since it is a part of a series that I continue to work on even now I cannot. Those three books are my life. My babies. I couldn't even think about writing a new novel at this point. Perhaps I will have to get over that though. We'll see what happens in the end.

James D. Macdonald said:
Well, yeah, you're in a fix.

You're right -- no publisher is going to want books II and III if another publisher has Book I. Especially if that other publisher is PA.

Now it's also true that being with PA doesn't count as being published. You can wait out the seven years and present the first book, and if it's had typical PA sales it'll still count as unpublished. You'll probably get nailed with a lower advance because it's a reprint, but what the hey.

Okay, this gives me some hope. I wouldn't care if I were to receive a lower advance for a reprint. I need these three books to stick together. There is no way I could make Book II a stand-alone. So then I have the option of writing a new one. For me, right now, it would be like asking a woman to forget about her recently deceased newborn by getting pregnant again, if that makes sense. I can't even fathom it. Like I said above, these three books are my heart.

Skanky as that contract is, it's still a contract, and you're presumed to have known what you were doing when you signed it. Perhaps a clever lawyer can break their contract. I'm not a lawyer, clever or otherwise.

Where there's a Will, there's a way.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 18, 2005

Stealth66 said:
Where there's a Will, there's a way.

Where there's a will there are relatives.

If your book had gone with a real publisher, you'd still be looking at starting a new book now.

If your book never sold, you'd be looking at starting a new book.

If your book was "under consideration" at a publishing house you'd be looking at starting a new book.

So ... start a new book. No matter what your path through these woods, the bridge over the chasm is marked "Write A New Book NOW."

Your best work is still waiting for you to write it.

Ken Schneider · Sep 18, 2005

Lady of Prose said:
You got that right, Ed. He's a publishing encyclopedia!

And Lady, you've got that right.

This past weekend, (At the Mid-west book fest) I felt like the Pied Piper repeating Jim's teachings and what I've learned from him about the publishing industry. I had to make a hasty departure from the author party to drink a beer in peace at the hotel bar. I had a great conversation with the off duty cleaning lady who was having a nightcap.

Sad story there. I can see how PA succeeds in their business model. I can only hope that I've reached some of those who haven't taken that route yet.

I'm not very popular with the PA happymooners anymore,(fake sigh-those I meet at the fest). I besmirched their publisher to the point that Kinkos is now a better choice than PA.

latichever · Sep 18, 2005

Cathy C said:
Only if you sell that many [250,000] to bookstores in a single week. A slow progression won't do it. Plus, only the USA Today list and BookScan include "point of sale" transactions. The NYT list, Walden's, and some of the others rely on sales from the Publisher to the bookstore, not the end buyer.

This is way too high, at least going on the evidence that I have. There's a boook that was on the NYT hardcover list last year and now the paperback list this year that has shipped in 6 figures but significantly less that 250,000.

Lady of Prose · Sep 18, 2005

changling said:
I'm not very popular with the PA happymooners anymore,(fake sigh-those I meet at the fest). I besmirched their publisher to the point that Kinkos is now a better choice than PA.

Ken, if you "besmirched their publisher", then I would say your fest was a roaring success. And hey, you're a hit with the ex-PA honeymooners and gang over here, where it counts. . .

aruna · Sep 18, 2005

From PA's "train wreck" thread:

But we’re stupid don’t you know that? They call us dimwits, nitwits and naïve. Fifteen thousand stupid dumb naïve nitwits. We’re not real published authors either. It hardly matters that we’re players; that we sell out of the trunks of our cars, on consignment in real bookstores (yes, real stores), flea markets, truck stops, cafes, coffeshops, book signings; give talks and perform readings at libraries (yes, real libraries), attend festivals and book fests (yes, real festivals--real bookfests). It hardly matters that we have books posted all over the internet, that we appear on television and radio and have newspaper articles and books mentioned in various print media. And that our publisher is on the forefront of publishing innovation.

They really ought to be thanking us poor dumb naive nitwits--that we found this stupid, dumb naive avenue of publishing, that allowed us to get our hopes and dreams out there, and out of their competing slushpiles. Sure we’re stupid for not taking the “traditional” way to published greatness--the trips to the post office. (Did I include a SASE, or did I forget to put a stamp on it. Now let’s see did this agent want a synopsis, outline and the first five pages, or was it the first five chapters? Now wasn’t this the publisher that will accept unagented submissions, but wants only a query letter and a synopsis, or was this the publisher that just wanted a one page query letter, or was it supposed to be not more than two pages, or was that six pages? Now, how many rejections will this make? I’m going to have to do a better job of record keeping. The bulletin board is full, and I don’t think I need to be punching holes in the wall with thumbtacks. I guess I’m fortunate that the agents and publishers have started cutting their preprinted rejection slips in half. I guess it saves them money and it certainly will take up less of my space. Maybe I need some kind of filing system. I sure wish there was a way around all this—some publisher that would make it easy for me to get started—some inexpensive way).

Sure we’re dumb naïve nitwits. We’re the Forrest Gumps of the publishing world. But as my mama used to say, “Stupid is as stupid does.”

MacAllister · Sep 18, 2005

Aruna, have you got a link to that thread?

I can't help but think that a big part of the breakdown is exactly this thinking:

...the “traditional” way to published greatness--the trips to the post office. (Did I include a SASE, or did I forget to put a stamp on it. Now let’s see did this agent want a synopsis, outline and the first five pages, or was it the first five chapters? Now wasn’t this the publisher that will accept unagented submissions, but wants only a query letter and a synopsis, or was this the publisher that just wanted a one page query letter, or was it supposed to be not more than two pages, or was that six pages? Now, how many rejections will this make? <<snip>>
I sure wish there was a way around all this—some publisher that would make it easy for me to get started—some inexpensive way).

The problem is that this writer wants a shortcut. But in the end, will spend even more energy, time, and money hustling books out of the trunk of his car than he ever would've spent had he done his research, done the homework, and landed a real publisher. Meanwhile, all that time, energy and money goes to selling, what, a couple hundred copies?

James D. Macdonald · Sep 18, 2005

It's from the Author's Lounge over there: http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=6030

The quoted post was by a person called White Raven.

The thread is called "Venting ... aka ... do you look when you pass a wreck?"

White Raven's book apparently came out in 2004. See http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=76236&highlight=#76236

Trepanny Peck · Sep 19, 2005

mreddin said:
If you look through the NYT Bestsellers, I think you will find some abuse memoirs there periodically the last couple of years. Like all other genres, they must be well written, engaging to the reader and sold to the appropriate agent that handles that genre. You could be the next Tom Clancy, but if the novel is not written with an eye towards marketability or is sent to the wrong editor or agent, it's not likely to sell I suspect.

Mike

I think that a lot of the PA abuse memoirs are the sort of works that Terry Pratchett once described as "These aren't books for reading, they're more books for writing". While I'm sure that writing the memoir helped the writer to overcome their problems, most of the world isn't going to want to pay money to read someone else's rambling therapy diary, when you can get as many of those as you want on Livejournal for free.

Also, I think that White Raven's post would be good line-by-lined.

LloydBrown · Sep 19, 2005

Trepanny Peck said:
Also, I think that White Raven's post would be good line-by-lined.

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me, Mr. Kotter, pick me!

[But we’re stupid don’t you know that? They call us dimwits, nitwits and naïve. Fifteen thousand stupid dumb naïve nitwits. ]

Not stupid. Deceived. Here's a test: what does PA offer you that their POD service, Lightning Source, doesn't do themselves? Lightning Source, not PA, lists your book with the online sellers. Lightning Source prints the copies. What benefit does PA give you over Lightning Source? What service do they provide?

The correct answer is none (unless you think that giving them money so that you can purchase your own book is a benefit). The really sad thing is that there are better POD printers than Lightning Source, too. It's just a convenient example because that's who prints your books if you sign with PA.

[We’re not real published authors either.]

As far as commercial publishers are concerned, you aren't. Go to a book convention and ask a publisher about it. Self-publication doesn't count for anything because there's no selectivity. Anybody can do it. Atlanta Nights proved that PA will publish anything submitted to them.

[It hardly matters that we’re players; that we sell out of the trunks of our cars, on consignment in real bookstores (yes, real stores), flea markets, truck stops, cafes, coffeshops, book signings; give talks and perform readings at libraries (yes, real libraries), attend festivals and book fests (yes, real festivals--real bookfests).]

You do all of that because you HAVE to if you want to sell books. If a commercial publisher had purchased the rights to your book, you would sell thousands more with zero effort. And that publisher's bookseller-friendly policies would multiply the fruits of your marketing labors tenfold.

[It hardly matters that we have books posted all over the internet]
Wrong. It doesn't matter AT ALL. You can get a book listed on the Internet at no charge with Lulu.com in a matter of hours. That's not a mark of distinction.

[that we appear on television and radio and have newspaper articles and books mentioned in various print media.]

And how many books does that effort help you sell? Five? Ten? The best-selling PA author has sold 5,200 copies of his book. Out of 14,000+ authors, which reason do you think applies to the reason NONE of them can attain any commercial success: a) they all suck, or b) their publisher's anti-bookseller policies and bad reputation prevent them from being able to sell books, regardless of how good their work is and how much they promote it?

[And that our publisher is on the forefront of publishing innovation. ]
PA own no patents, no exclusive software that we're aware of, and no unique business model. They have no innovations. They only forefront that they're on is the scale on which they con people.

[They really ought to be thanking us poor dumb naive nitwits--that we found this stupid, dumb naive avenue of publishing, that allowed us to get our hopes and dreams out there, and out of their competing slushpiles.]

I don't fear your competition.

[ Sure we’re stupid for not taking the “traditional” way to published greatness--the trips to the post office.]

What's wrong with the mailbox in the front yard?

[ (Did I include a SASE, or did I forget to put a stamp on it. Now let’s see did this agent want a synopsis, outline and the first five pages, or was it the first five chapters? ... I’m going to have to do a better job of record keeping.]

If you can't keep track of these issues (like maybe with a simple spreadsheet, or just highlighting the Writer's Market entries), then how do you maintain continuity in your book? How do you keep straight the attribution of all of your quotes? Heck, how do you pay your bills every month?

[...I sure wish there was a way around all this—some publisher that would make it easy for me to get started—some inexpensive way).]

Lulu.com costs nothing. Other POD printers print your books for you just as well as PA. All of them faster, and virtually all of them cost less than what the average PA author spends on his or her own books.

[“Stupid is as stupid does.”]

That I agree with.

-----------------------
If you think you have some credibility outside of PA because you went with a printer that calls themselves a "traditional publisher," you're wrong. It's only the community of PA authors that thinks that PA means anything. PA didn't "approve" your book; they just decided that you would probably buy copies if they printed some.

In sum, if you sought publication because you wanted to make money, you won't with PA. Nobody ever has. Nobody ever will. Nobody can because of their policies.

If you sought publication because you just wanted to see your name on a cover, you should have used a POD printer yourself and skipped the middle man. You'd still have the rights to your book, it would cost you less, you'd have control over the cover art, you could set your own price, and you would sell more books. And you'd have just as much credibility.

xhouseboy · Sep 19, 2005

MacAllister said:
Aruna, have you got a link to that thread?

I can't help but think that a big part of the breakdown is exactly this thinking:

The problem is that this writer wants a shortcut. But in the end, will spend even more energy, time, and money hustling books out of the trunk of his car than he ever would've spent had he done his research, done the homework, and landed a real publisher. Meanwhile, all that time, energy and money goes to selling, what, a couple hundred copies?

He could also be extolling the virtues of cowboy builders the world over. Talk the talk, hopefully convincing my potential targets that I know what I'm about, then hit the trail before they realise I never did learn my trade (too much of a hassle) and I've left my customers with a bag of s**t on their hands.

Christine N. · Sep 19, 2005

My personal favorite...

Some people expect to win at poker without learning how to play the game. When they don't win, they blame the dealer.

Yeah, but being with PA is expecting to win at poker while sitting at the black jack table.

PA is nowhere even remotely close to the game - it ain't even in the same casino.

aruna · Sep 19, 2005

Christine N. said:
My personal favorite...

Yeah, but being with PA is expecting to win at poker while sitting at the black jack table.

PA is nowhere even remotely close to the game - it ain't even in the same casino.

Isn't it amazing?

Today I received my copy of the Bookseller; there's a whole supplement on the Frankfurt Book Fair, which is next month. The FBF is the world's largest event in the book trade. I've been there twice; it is mind boggling. Publishers from all over the world are represented and you can walk for 3 days to visit all their stalls. It's a whole world of wheeling and dealing, with multi-million contracts for book rights negotiated. Everyone who's anyone is represented.
I went to the FBF website and did a search for PA, just to see if they are there.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see that they are not.
(OK, some smaller publishers are also not; but then they don't make such wild claims)

PA are not even playing the game; they haven't even entered the stadium/casino. Their bombastic claims of upsetting the book trade is like somebody with a video camera taking movies and expecting to throw over Hollywood.

Anyway, white raven and co will learn, and a new batch of rah rahs will appear to replace them.

Sigh.

xhouseboy · Sep 19, 2005

aruna said:
Their bombastic claims of upsetting the book trade is like somebody with a video camera taking movies and expecting to throw over Hollywood.

Sod's law dictates that this could just happen - Blair Witch - and also the new Russian horror flick that's been picked up for world-wide distribution by the big boys. Among the 14000 or so PA books, there could be a gem or two in there that one day might come to the attention of a major studio.

It may also have happened for the authors if they'd opted for self-publishing (Eragon springs to mind), but if PA is ever involved in anything like this, you won't ever hear the end of it. They'll milk it until the teats shrivel in their money-grubbing fingers.

Gravity · Sep 19, 2005

I agree. Book successes like Eragon are called "flukes" for a reason. Yet nearly every man-Jack of a PA author believes theirs will also be "the one". Given the boat-anchor reputation of a scam outfit like PA around their ankles puts the liklihood of that about on the same par as me waking up tomorrow morning and hearing Sigourney Weaver singing in my shower.

John

postshy · Sep 19, 2005

White Raven and others.....

You obviously read this thread, so think about this. I am one of the "dimwits, nitwits and naive". I went with PublishAmerica, yet I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person. The test of whether you are really one of the above, or are able to exercise your own critical abilities, is to be able to step back and admit when you have made a mistake. I made a mistake. I am not ashamed of it. I learned from it.

One IMPORTANT thing I learned from this thread is that not everybody is a writer, no matter how much you want to be. All that PA does is allow you to believe that you are a writer by publishing your book. You are not an author until you write something that somebody wants to read. The simple act of writing a book does not make you an author. Those rejection slips mean something. They mean that your book is either not ready for publication, or the subject matter is not suitable for today's readership. Does this make you a lesser person, or a "dimwit"? No! What Lady of Prose and Aruna are saying is that you are a "dimwit" for not realising that with PA you have nothing. Acknowledge it, and move on, thus proving that you are none of those things. All ex-PA supporters on this Board were at one time "dimwits, nitwits and naive". We are not taking offence. Why should you?

I have had my share of rejection slips since going with PA? I have recently changed my subject matter and writing style to try and produce something the market might want. Obviously I was not going to make it by putting my fingers in my ears and saying: "I know I am a good writer no matter what anyone else says." If my novel is accepted - great; if it is not, then I am NOT an author, but I will keep trying. One day I may have to accept that I just cannot cut it as a writer. I will have to accept that and so will you, should it happen, but PA is not the answer.

Having said that, I see no harm in continuing to write and submit and get rejection slips, but defending PA puts you in the category mentioned above, namely a "dimwit, nitwit and naive". Enough said!

I hope you understand this is not personal - you might be a great writer - but no one is going to find that out while you sit there whining about what you are going through and what PA has done for you. They did nothing for me, except cheat me, lie to me and insult me. Yes, they printed my book, but that does not make me an author by any means because no one is reading it. This is not entirely due to the book, but to PA's negative practices, which I am sure you have read about hundreds of times on this thread.

I am sure I speak for everyone here when I say that all of us could find better things to do with our time than try to help you climb out of the morass you and other current PA authors are in, so listen up, for goodness sake!

postshy/Roberta

Kevin Yarbrough · Sep 19, 2005

Rick Russell said:
Jean Marie,
Your vehemence reminds me of an old friend whose complaints against his publisher were almost identical to yours. He warned everyone he knew to avoid the publisher, ranted and raved at how badly the publisher screwed him. Would get positively livid whenever the publisher was brought up. His publisher? Doubleday.

Yeah, Rick, but did Doubleday ever call the cops on their authors and try to have them arrested?

Did they accept books that were the 30 pages copied over and over even when they stated that they were very picky about what they accepted and rejected 80% of the ms they receive?

Did they continue to print books and sell them after the contract had been cancelled?

Did they ever pose as a fake author to reveal untrue facts about another of their authors, or anybody else for that matter?

Did they send verbally abusive emails when one of their authors asks them a question?

Did they hire armed securtiy guards for one of their release parties or conventions?

Did they monitor other websites to see if any of their authors are saying bad things about them?

Did they buy out domain names of someone who had said they weren't recommended and then blackmail the owner into changing the rating if he wanted the domain name back?

Did they drop books that were selling well and claim they did it because they weren't selling?

Did they put up a website and say that you couldn't really trust author advocates and that sci-fi and fantasy writers have it easy because there was no real plot?

With this last question I doubt Doubleday would do. They would have pissed off some of their already contracted authors. In PA's case, they didn't care if they pissed off their already contracted authors, they got what they wanted, time to move on.

So, after reading all of this, is PA still worth the frustration of sending your book to? Is all of this worth the price to have two free copies of your book and enough in royalties every six months to buy a Big Mac. Is it worth it to have the book locked up for seven years? Answer the questions for me and then let me know if you really think PA is worth it.

Kevin Yarbrough · Sep 19, 2005

xhouseboy said:
His answers came from a single source, and initially in the form of a level headed dissertation of PA's pros and cons, but this soon descended into a ranting rhetoric about how one had to be sleeping with the publisher's maid's cousin's dog in order to get a foot in the traditional publisher's door. QUOTE]

What kind of dog was it? If it was a Collie I might thin about it, after all I basically slept with a few scroungy mutts (Clopper, Meiners, Miranda) to get my book printed anyways. Maybe a pure breed would be worth it.

xhouseboy · Sep 19, 2005

Kevin Yarbrough said:
What kind of dog was it? If it was a Collie I might thin about it, after all I basically slept with a few scroungy mutts (Clopper, Meiners, Miranda) to get my book printed anyways. Maybe a pure breed would be worth it.

Kevin... he didn't elaborate on that. I suspect his allocated time on the computer may have run out, and his handlers hauled him off to administer his regular high dose of medication.

Stealth66 · Sep 19, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Where there's a will there are relatives.

Ah, I needed a good laugh.

I understand your point. I will either get out a notebook and start writing down some notes for a new book, or I will concentrate on short stories for now. I have several finished ones that I should be submitting to magazines.

DeePower · Sep 19, 2005

PA considered POD by the UK

Shelagh received a reply from the UK regarding the question of whether six copies of a PA book in the UK had to be depostied in the library. She asked me to pass it on.

Dear Ms. Watkins

Print on demand publications do not fall within the terms of the Legal
Deposit Libraries Act 2003 therefore we are unable to request copies.

Regards

D**** L*****

Agency for the Legal Deposit Libraries

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Resident of the Darkside

Your Genial Uncle

Big Elvis fan

Member - the "Sting Gang."

Drummin' the frustrations away.

Your Genial Uncle

Absolute sagebrush

Member - the "Sting Gang."

On a wing and a prayer

'Twas but a dream of thee

Your Genial Uncle

In the Yellow Woods

haz a shiny new book cover

On a wing and a prayer

In the Yellow Woods

Seen 'em come, seen 'em go

Will write for peace of mind

Will write for peace of mind

In the Yellow Woods

Drummin' the frustrations away.

DeePower