The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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zebedee

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I'm a Brit and therefore know nothing about guns, though this thread has been hugely informative, especially that video by the doctor regarding the differences between calibers and wounds.

What I'd like to know is how loud would, say, a 9mm handgun be compared to a .45 in an enclosed place like a hallway or a living room?
Would you be left with ringing ears after 5 or 6 shots if you were either the shooter or someone standing 10 feet away?

I'm talking semi-auto rather than revolver if that makes any difference.
 

Drachen Jager

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I've never fired a weapon without ear protection and I've never fired anything larger than a .22 in an enclosed space.

With that caveat, I've never noticed that much difference in sound volume between 9mm and .45. As far as your novel is concerned I don't know why you're being so specific. Is it an exchange of fire between the 9mm and the .45 and you want to describe the difference in the sounds? There are plenty of YouTube videos you can look at where people are firing on the range, maybe that will help give you a clearer impression than we can with mere words.

The only difference I've ever noticed is that the 9mm seems sharper, the .45 deeper.

Now, if you want to talk rifle vs. handgun, or shotgun, then you'd notice a real difference.
 

slhuang

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What I'd like to know is how loud would, say, a 9mm handgun be compared to a .45 in an enclosed place like a hallway or a living room?
Would you be left with ringing ears after 5 or 6 shots if you were either the shooter or someone standing 10 feet away?
I've fired many different types of weapons in enclosed spaces. And yes, it's LOUD. It echoes -- more so in a metal warehouse stairwell, say, and less so in a heavily upholstered mansion, but much louder than firing outdoors. A hallway will be worse than a living room -- in a living room it's probably that the furniture/curtains/etc. absorb some of it, but firing in a hallway can be deafening, even with a small caliber like a 9mm. In enclosed spaces it's usually a lot louder than people expect.

Loud enough for 5-6 shots to cause persistent ringing afterward if the observer is 10 feet away, though? Hmm. I'm going to go with "unlikely." It's never happened to me (I usually wear ear protection, but there have been times I've been caught without it and had my hands full doing something else while someone was firing, and I didn't get any ringing afterward). But I'm also very used to it and there's a chance I have some hearing loss at this point. I've never heard anyone else complain of ringing after not wearing ear protection, either, though.

In any case, it's certainly loud enough to be very uncomfortable; in fact, I would blink if one of your observer character's first moves wasn't an automatic hands-to-the-ears, which would mean s/he almost certainly wouldn't get ringing afterward -- I use my fingers as ear protection all the time near firing weapons and it's perfectly comfortable. ;)

I've never focused on comparing a 9mm and a .45 side-by-side, but in memory there isn't much difference. Like Drachen said, there's a much bigger difference if you move up to shotguns or high-caliber rifles. Which I've also fired in enclosed spaces, and which are MUCH louder.
 

Stanmiller

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This:
The only difference I've ever noticed is that the 9mm seems sharper, the .45 deeper.

The 9x19 is a higher pressure round than the .45 ACP, plus most loads for it are supersonic (except the 147 gr standard load). So it has a POP or SNAP sound .

Most .45 loads are subsonic, thus have more of a BOOM sound.

When shooting at the range, the difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 is easy to hear.

As for sound pressure (volume) levels, maybe a decibel meter could tell the difference but I sure can't and I shoot a lot of both.

Now the .50 Action Express and the S&W .500 Mag, those shake dust from the rafters and make everybody at the range back off the firing line wondering what the he!! just happened.

Stan
 

Drachen Jager

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The 9x19 is a higher pressure round than the .45 ACP, plus most loads for it are supersonic (except the 147 gr standard load). So it has a POP or SNAP sound .

Most .45 loads are subsonic, thus have more of a BOOM sound.

Right, I was aware of the sub/supersonic difference, but I never thought about how it changes the sound from a shooter's perspective. From being in the butts during live fire, I know a supersonic round makes quite a snap when it goes by.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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What I'd like to know is how loud would, say, a 9mm handgun be compared to a .45 in an enclosed place like a hallway or a living room?
Would you be left with ringing ears after 5 or 6 shots if you were either the shooter or someone standing 10 feet away?

!@#$ing loud, either way. As others have said, supersonic will have more crack, subsonic more boom. None will be pleasant, all will be disorienting. You can get an idea with some kind of explosive in a small shed--firecracker or flammable gas. Be careful, obviously.

You're looking at around 145 decibels, IIRC.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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I was just coming here to say something similar. Also, in addendum, all (if there are exceptions I'm unaware of them) military ammunition is jacketed in this manner. Expanding bullets are against the Geneva Conventions, and they're generally seen as ineffective on the battlefield because they have less penetration and are more likely to kill. Killing is seen as less optimal than seriously wounding a soldier because a wounded soldier diverts resources to see him safely out of danger, while a dead soldier can be left to lie for a while.

I just noticed this.

It's incorrect. A bullet is designed to render a combat stop--enemy combatant not able to return fire. Whether he's dead, incapacitated or just stunned isn't relevant. The battle is for control of territory. The smallest round that will reliably stop the enemy is sufficient, which is why virtually everyone has gone to 5-6mm intermediate power cartridges.

The problem with designing to wound is that if it wounds insufficiently, you don't get a stop. And, few rounds are going to hit center mass and kill anyway.

At 500 yards, 5.56 mm has as much energy as a .45 ACP does at the muzzle. It's still more than enough to kill, if it hits a critical target.

The critical targets are heart, lungs, liver, kidneys and central nervous system. A hit to those has a strong probability of killing, though death may not be instantaneous.

Otherwise, death is dependent upon sufficient trauma, or blood loss.

Also, non-expanding is no longer really relevant. At the time, it referred to specific types of soft lead ammo with the tips cut to encourage expansion, though how effective they were is debatable.

M193 5.56mm penetrates about 4", oscillates sideways, shatters at the cannelure into two large and several smaller pieces. Swedish and West German 7.62mm did this same thing. Modern M855 does so, but only at shorter range, due to velocity vs jacket strength.

Hollowpoints are still permitted in certain roles--for sniping, where it's a matter of bullet construction for accuracy vs for wounding, and for certain special operations where the intent is not to engage against general enemies, but specific individuals. There may also be an exemption for military police performing enforcement missions, not combat missions.
 

Ken

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... how difficult is it to shoot lefty if you're a righty and vice versa, especially if you haven't had much practice?
(In terms of hitting you target and all.) / (ordinary, unspecified handgun)

Thnx in advance.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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... how difficult is it to shoot lefty if you're a righty and vice versa, especially if you haven't had much practice?
(In terms of hitting you target and all.) / (ordinary, unspecified handgun)

Thnx in advance.


That entirely depends on the individual. Relevant factors: Vision, coordination, how firm their dominance is for either hand or eye, and practice.

I have near perfect undifferentiated vision, and am about 60/40 left/right handed, and can shoot expert either way. People with severe dominance, or with vision problems, can be locked in to one side only. The worst case is very dominant handedness with a cross dominant eye.
 

slhuang

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... how difficult is it to shoot lefty if you're a righty and vice versa, especially if you haven't had much practice?
(In terms of hitting you target and all.) / (ordinary, unspecified handgun)

Thnx in advance.

I think this is very much a case of "depends on the person." I'm very strongly right-dominant, but even back when I started shooting I was almost as good with my left hand as with my right. And because I've always kept up practicing with the left, I'm still just as good with my left hand as with my right (better, some days!).

I know people who don't regularly switch who have picked up with the non-dominant hand and done pretty much fine, even if it wasn't quite as good as with the dominant hand. I've known others whose accuracy nosedived. I think you have a lot of character leeway here.
 

jmare

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... how difficult is it to shoot lefty if you're a righty and vice versa, especially if you haven't had much practice?
(In terms of hitting you target and all.) / (ordinary, unspecified handgun)

Thnx in advance.

It all depends on individual ability and skill. The more skill you have the more likely you will apply the fundamentals and be able to hit your target.

The real question is why wouldn't you shoot with your dominant hand. I can only think of two instances where it would make sense to fire off-hand and both have problems.

1. The off-hand is closer to the gun and time is a factor, i.e., the shot must be made now. This raises a lot of questions like why didn't he/she just grab the gun with the dominant hand? Why not transfer the gun immediately? Etc.

2. An injury prevents the person from using their dominant hand. If the person has an injury before the shooting starts, it's not so bad. It makes sense. If the person is injured during the gunfight, i.e., shot, it's not as likely that the person would have the sense to switch hands. If a person has the frame of mind to switch off and keep firing, then it's also likely that he/she has trained to shoot off-hand.

Sorry, I assumed you were talking in relation to gunfighting.
 

Ken

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Relevant factors: Vision, coordination, how firm their dominance is for either hand or eye, and practice.

... never really considered vision as a factor in and of itself. Very interesting consideration, not just for shooting, but other things as well.

I think you have a lot of character leeway here.

Very cool. I need some leeway, so the scene is feasible.

2. An injury prevents the person from using their dominant hand. If the person has an injury before the shooting starts, it's not so bad. It makes sense. If the person is injured during the gunfight, i.e., shot, it's not as likely that the person would have the sense to switch hands. If a person has the frame of mind to switch off and keep firing, then it's also likely that he/she has trained to shoot off-hand.

Sorry, I assumed you were talking in relation to gunfighting.

Good guess. My character has an injury prior to the gunfight, forcing them to make due with their left. They weigh the odds. Decide against it. And surrender. (Very good observation in bold.)

Thanks for your help Jmare, Slhuang, and Michael.
 

Ken

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... that's clever. And rather helpful. Otherwise you really would have to expose yourself a lot to cover a field or whatnot if you were holed up behind a tree or something. Even minimized, I guess enough of your profile still shows for someone to peg you. So you've gotta fire quickly and pull back behind cover, I'd suppose, after firing off a shot.
 

ironmikezero

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I can't see that it's been specifically mentioned, but if you shoot a pistol with your right hand, you align the sights with your right eye. Switching to your left hand means using your left eye. There are a few exceptions (i.e., vision in only one eye, etc.) that will require more specific training, but as a rule the same hand/eye doctrine is dogma in handgun training 101.
 

BradyH1861

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When I went through the Academy, I discovered that I was left eye dominant, despite being right handed. The Instructor made me shoot with my right hand while wearing a patch over my left eye. That got me in the practice of sighting with my right eye when using my right hand.

When switching to my left hand, I use my left eye. The first agency I worked for required us to shoot half our rounds with our weak hand during our qualifications.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Just throwing this out there, not for or against this method:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_Axis_Relock

Just something to think about when writing about handgun gunfighting.



It's a good one, and I used it a lot. I've found strong off-hand and thumbs forward lets me put every round within a couple of inches of target, pretty much by pointing and clicking.

My wife is very effective in Weaver. My daughter prefers Isosceles. (They both shoot revolvers, which aren't safe with strong off-hand.)

Stance will vary by person, weapon and circumstances.
 

WeaselFire

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The real question is why wouldn't you shoot with your dominant hand. I can only think of two instances where it would make sense to fire off-hand and both have problems.
There's only one bad reason, and that's a loss of use of the dominant hand/arm. Defensive pistol and rifle/carbine training always includes training for loss of use of the primary, and trains for switching during a gunfight. Most training is for a two-handed firing grip, many shooters train for multiple circumstances (all should).

The second reason to switch hands is to better use available cover. The non-dominant hand grip may present less of you to the opposing shooter, always a good thing.

Jeff
 

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Gun Facts For You: Magazine vs. Clip, and the Smell of Cordite

This is an FYI thread. While I am not a gun person, I have noticed a few common mistakes that those who know something about guns complain about. So since I learned them, I thought I'd pass it along.

First, the difference between magazines and clips.

Second, in many books, authors will write that after a gun fight characters could "smell the cordite" in the air, referring to the scent of spent shells/gun powder. Thing is, cordite hasn't been used in bullet manufacturing since WWII, so no one is going to be smelling cordite in the last five decades at least.
 
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