Self Publishing and ISBNs

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Old Hack

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I don't know much about ISBNs. I know they are an identification number, and that each one must be unique for a given version of a book. Also, if I understand correctly, whoever bought the original ISBN is listed as the publisher of the book version that uses that ISBN. But that doesn't give them any copyright license, right?

An ISBN refers only to the specific edition of a book that it's attached to. It has nothing to do with copyright, which is a completely separate issue.

Can someone who knows more tell me what the advantages are for owning the ISBN as a publisher?

An ISBN is essentially a tag which allows everyone involved in the selling of that book to ensure they're working with the right book. It's used in catalogues, online and off; it's used to produce sales statistics and royalty statements, it's used for ordering and stock reports and production documents. All sorts of stuff. It makes sure that different editions of the same book aren't confused, and that books with identical titles from different authors are separated too.

This is really confusing me since it is split from copyright in such an odd way. What rights does owning the ISBN confer?

The ISBN has nothing to do with copyright. Owning an ISBN doesn't confer any rights at all in this respect.
 

Katie Elle

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Smashwords seems to really, really try to discourage use of an independent ISBN.
Sure. Because if they own the ISBN you're locked in to them.

How are you locked into them? They don't own you work. You have full rights. You can take them down, put them elsewhere, whenever you'd like.
 

Old Hack

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But you can't take that Smashwords ISBN with you when you go so, and if you reissue that same book with a new ISBN it'll have to start again, as far as sales rankings and reviews go. So if you want to preserve the momentum you've achieved, you really can't move it elsewhere and give it a new ISBN.
 

Katie Elle

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B&N will definitely pick it up as long as the information is otherwise the same. You might need to have overlap in publication. It came up in a thread for people switching from Smash to D2D from someone who had done so and had their information transfer. That makes sense, they already do this for different print and ebook editions which, obviously, if they have an ISBN at all, have different ones.

At least one person was told by Apple reviews and rankings don't carry period. Apple's pretty notorious for bad info though--they're pages still claim you need an ISBN and you haven't for months.
 

DRMarvello

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...if I understand correctly, whoever bought the original ISBN is listed as the publisher of the book version that uses that ISBN. But that doesn't give them any copyright license, right?

Can someone who knows more tell me what the advantages are for owning the ISBN as a publisher? This is really confusing me since it is split from copyright in such an odd way. What rights does owning the ISBN confer?

Copyright and ISBNs have no relationship to one another. They are totally separate issues.

Copyright relates to the person who created the content. As soon as you write something original, you own the copyright for it. You can choose to license your copyright to other entities. For example, when you publish a book through KDP, you are granting Amazon the right to distribute and resell your book. You still hold the copyright, and since the arrangement is not exclusive (unless you join KDP Select), you can grant those same distribution rights to another organization (like Barnes & Noble).

ISBNs were devised so every published work could have a world-wide unique identifier. The ISBN allowed book sellers and readers around the world to order a specific edition of a specific title and know they were going to get exactly what they ordered (e.g. the first edition paperback of title X). The ISBN not only identifies the book title and edition, but it identifies the publisher of the book, making it possible to track down the source of a book regardless of where/how it was distributed.

The advent of e-books, retailer publishing portals, and distributors that create throw-away/reusable ISBNs (like Smashwords and CreateSpace) has essentially defeated the purpose of ISBNs in the name of making things easier for authors. You can decide for yourself whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
 

jnfr

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Okay, so this is helpful. Thanks DrMarvello and Old Hack.

So this must be why Smashwords insists that you specifically label their editions as the "Smashwords Edition" inside your book, so that the ISBN (if you use their ISBN), is assigned as the identifier to that edition. Even though the content is the same in your KDP edition, that makes it a separate ebook edition.
 

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Okay, so this is helpful. Thanks DrMarvello and Old Hack.

So this must be why Smashwords insists that you specifically label their editions as the "Smashwords Edition" inside your book, so that the ISBN (if you use their ISBN), is assigned as the identifier to that edition. Even though the content is the same in your KDP edition, that makes it a separate ebook edition.

You're welcome. And you are right that it is a separate edition on multiple levels. Smashwords distributes an EPUB, so that format would get a separate ISBN from your Kindle (MobiPocket format) edition in any case.
 

Deleted member 42

The advent of e-books, retailer publishing portals, and distributors that create throw-away/reusable ISBNs (like Smashwords and CreateSpace) has essentially defeated the purpose of ISBNs in the name of making things easier for authors. You can decide for yourself whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Bowker specifically forbids the use of reusable ISBNs.

Are you specifically aware of a publisher reusing ISBNs?
 

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ISBNs were devised so every published work could have a world-wide unique identifier. The ISBN allowed book sellers and readers around the world to order a specific edition of a specific title and know they were going to get exactly what they ordered (e.g. the first edition paperback of title X). The ISBN not only identifies the book title and edition, but it identifies the publisher of the book, making it possible to track down the source of a book regardless of where/how it was distributed.

The advent of e-books, retailer publishing portals, and distributors that create throw-away/reusable ISBNs (like Smashwords and CreateSpace) has essentially defeated the purpose of ISBNs in the name of making things easier for authors. You can decide for yourself whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

My bold.

It's true that some self publishers who work in a relatively small niche might find ISBNs unnecessary. But that hasn't "essentially defeated the purpose of ISBNs".

ISBNs are still very much necessary in trade publishing, and for print editions, and for bookshop sales and distributor systems and bestseller lists and royalty statements and all sorts of other situations.
 

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So are we losing the ISBN as a unique identifier for editions? That would utterly suck. What is this about reusable ISBNs?
 

Sheryl Nantus

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Bowker specifically forbids the use of reusable ISBNs.

Are you specifically aware of a publisher reusing ISBNs?

I'd like to hear the source of this as well.

A million years ago when I worked for Penguin Books Canada I was responsible for submitting the paperwork for ISBNs for the books. I never, EVER heard anything about them being resusable!

Not to mention it'd open a heap of trouble up about tracking and logistics...

Source, please!
 

DRMarvello

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Bowker specifically forbids the use of reusable ISBNs.

Are you specifically aware of a publisher reusing ISBNs?

It isn't necessarily the publisher reusing the ISBN so much as the authors. If you make substantive changes to your book and upload a new version to Smashwords, that updated book goes out into premium distribution with the same ISBN it originally had, even though it is technically a new edition. I'm not talking about fixing typos here. I mean a new ending to the book, new chapters, etc.

The same thing can happen at CreateSpace with print books.

It's true that some self publishers who work in a relatively small niche might find ISBNs unnecessary. But that hasn't "essentially defeated the purpose of ISBNs".
If the purpose of an ISBN is to identify the globally unique edition of a specific title and its publisher, then the free ISBNs that Smashwords and CS hand out are defeating the purpose of the ISBN. Those organizations erroneously list themselves as the publisher. Plus, the numbers are not valid in any other context than when the book is distributed through them, so I'd argue that defeats the "unique book identifier" purpose as well.
 

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It isn't necessarily the publisher reusing the ISBN so much as the authors. If you make substantive changes to your book and upload a new version to Smashwords, that updated book goes out into premium distribution with the same ISBN it originally had, even though it is technically a new edition. I'm not talking about fixing typos here. I mean a new ending to the book, new chapters, etc.

The same thing can happen at CreateSpace with print books.

That sounds to me more like sloppy work than accepted practise. (Practice? I can never remember which is which. Sorry.) I don't think this means that ISBNs are now reusable: it just means that some people who use Smashwords' free ISBNs don't understand properly what ISBNs are for, and don't know how they're meant to be used.

If the purpose of an ISBN is to identify the globally unique edition of a specific title and its publisher, then the free ISBNs that Smashwords and CS hand out are defeating the purpose of the ISBN. Those organizations erroneously list themselves as the publisher. Plus, the numbers are not valid in any other context than when the book is distributed through them, so I'd argue that defeats the "unique book identifier" purpose as well.

It's not making ISBNs unnecessary, though: it only affects those issued through Smashwords etc. and doesn't affect how trade publishers use them, or their use of them.

I think we're talking a bit at cross purposes here.
 

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That sounds to me more like sloppy work than accepted practise. (Practice? I can never remember which is which. Sorry.) I don't think this means that ISBNs are now reusable: it just means that some people who use Smashwords' free ISBNs don't understand properly what ISBNs are for, and don't know how they're meant to be used.

I agree with you completely. However, when I have had discussions with authors who do this, they are adamant that being able to update your books at will is one of the benefits of the new reality of self-publishing. Many of them see Bowker as an evil monopoly out to steal their profits by forcing them to follow a bunch of arbitrary rules.

It's not making ISBNs unnecessary, though: it only affects those issued through Smashwords etc. and doesn't affect how trade publishers use them, or their use of them.

I think we're talking a bit at cross purposes here.

Yeah, I think we are just arguing semantics. My comment was not meant to imply that I think ISBNs are no longer necessary. There's no question that the trade distribution channels still rely on them as always. I'm a fan of the ISBN concept, and I'm disturbed by what I see happening in the marketplace now.
 

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I agree with you completely. However, when I have had discussions with authors who do this, they are adamant that being able to update your books at will is one of the benefits of the new reality of self-publishing. Many of them see Bowker as an evil monopoly out to steal their profits by forcing them to follow a bunch of arbitrary rules.

Yep, because trying to ensure that books are properly identified and one author doesn't get another author's sales receipts and so on is so evil and mean.

I am so weary of hearing about people complaining about stuff they don't understand and haven't bothered to find out about.

Gah!

If ISBNs are reused, it's bad for readers.

If books are published, revised, and republished without any indication of which edition the reader might be buying, it's bad for readers.

If we piss off our readers, we'll lose them. Readers fund publishing.

Without them, we've got nothing.

Gah again!

Yeah, I think we are just arguing semantics. My comment was not meant to imply that I think ISBNs are no longer necessary. There's no question that the trade distribution channels still rely on them as always. I'm a fan of the ISBN concept, and I'm disturbed by what I see happening in the marketplace now.

Thank you for the clarification. I think we're actually arguing the same point.
 

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If ISBNs are reused, it's bad for readers.

If books are published, revised, and republished without any indication of which edition the reader might be buying, it's bad for readers.

Exactly! Most of the "rules" Bowker publishes regarding ISBN use are actually designed to protect the buyer. The rules make sure the buyer gets precisely what he or she ordered.
 

Deleted member 42

It isn't necessarily the publisher reusing the ISBN so much as the authors. If you make substantive changes to your book and upload a new version to Smashwords, that updated book goes out into premium distribution with the same ISBN it originally had, even though it is technically a new edition.

That's a sign of ignorance and/or incompetence.

If the purpose of an ISBN is to identify the globally unique edition of a specific title and its publisher, then the free ISBNs that Smashwords and CS hand out are defeating the purpose of the ISBN. Those organizations erroneously list themselves as the publisher.

They do so because they are the publisher, and they are following Bowker's instructions.
 

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The buyer--the reader--pays for everything that happens in publishing. Without the reader we're shouting into the void.

When writers complain that publishing doesn't work for them, they're missing the point. Publishing works for readers. That's what it's meant to do. Writers are just suppliers.
 

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The whole crisis of ISBN would evaporate if Bowker would lower their prices. The price of one ISBN has created the problem-125.00.

The solution if Bowker valued their own numbering system would be sale prices, but it hasn't happened.
 

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Ten ISBNs with a unique identifier for the publisher are 250.

If you're serious about being a professional publisher with a quality product, there are costs of doing business.

And frankly, I'm not sympathetic.

I paid $500.00 for a single ISBN when I first started in the 1990s.

Don't care about being identified as a publisher, but just wan't your books available for online purchases? There are any number of alternatives to buying an ISBN.
 

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The whole crisis of ISBN would evaporate if Bowker would lower their prices. The price of one ISBN has created the problem-125.00.

The solution if Bowker valued their own numbering system would be sale prices, but it hasn't happened.

I suspect you're right.

I also think Bowker made a tactical error by offering a "single ISBN" option. In reality, the smallest block size that can be assigned a unique publisher prefix is 10. When you buy a single ISBN, you are actually getting a number from a block that is shared with other publishers. In order to get publisher information for those numbers, Bowker has to do something different than what they've done in the past. I'm betting that has something to do with why it costs ridiculously more to buy a single ISBN than it does to buy a block of 10 ($125 per number versus $25 per number).

Other countries offer ISBNs for free or for a nominal charge. One country (I forget now which one) lets you reserve a block of numbers, but pay for the numbers out of that block as you use them. U.S. authors would probably be more willing to play the ISBN game if they didn't have to pay so much money up front.

Just to show you how much I believe in ISBNs, my little publishing company (run by my wife and me) owns a block of 1,000. I only burn a buck when I use an ISBN, but to get that "economy of scale" we had to pay the money up front. Will we ever use them all? I don't know. At least they don't expire. ;)
 

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The whole crisis of ISBN would evaporate if Bowker would lower their prices. The price of one ISBN has created the problem-125.00.

The solution if Bowker valued their own numbering system would be sale prices, but it hasn't happened.

There is no crisis.

ISBNs are sold at just about cost price.

If publishers object to that, I suspect they have little or no experience in publishing, and/or don't understand all that ISBNs do and the value they represent.

The solution doesn't lie with Bowker, but with the people who complain about the cost of ISBNs.
 

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So when other countries supply ISBNs to authors and publishers are low or no cost, is the government itself paying Bowker for them, or do they use another supplier?

I assume the government can buy in large bulk, but then how does Bowker (or whoever) then decide who to call the publisher?

I think the proper uses of ISBNs in publishing editions and so on really is not generally understood outside of trade publishers, which isn't surprising.
 

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So when other countries supply ISBNs to authors and publishers are low or no cost, is the government itself paying Bowker for them, or do they use another supplier?

I assume the government can buy in large bulk, but then how does Bowker (or whoever) then decide who to call the publisher?

Bowker is the official supplier of ISBNs for the U.S. market only. Other countries allocate them according to their own rules. In some cases, the government itself issues them (I believe Canada is one example.)

Part of the ISBN is a 2-digit "group id," which can generally be thought of as a "country code" (although that's not entirely accurate).

[Edit: The group id is actually variable in length: 1-5 digits. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number
for more information about the breakdown of an ISBN.]

I think the proper uses of ISBNs in publishing editions and so on really is not generally understood outside of trade publishers, which isn't surprising.

That's true, unfortunately. Many authors have decided to become publishers without first learning about the business of publishing.
 
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