Quiltbag Cantina and Tearoom

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Niniva

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Actually, I get the whole "women get to have women only clubs but men don't" complaint. I've always viewed it as inherently unfair. Except, the alternative is even more unfair, when men can exclude women from public life [corporate/political] by excluding them from men only clubs.

I do see both sides of the coin, but I don't have any answers. I just expect unfairness and move forward.
 

WritingIsHard

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Actually, I get the whole "women get to have women only clubs but men don't" complaint. I've always viewed it as inherently unfair.

The difference is that women need women-only clubs to have a safe space to discuss women issues without men showing up and making the discussion about them. Men are not oppressed. They don't need safe spaces. The same way straight people don't need straight spaces, and white people don't need white spaces.


It is funny that the OP is 52 and posters down the line think he's a teenager... I think it might be a generational thing, the having of a "gay filter'. I'm in my 20s and I don't do a lot of 'gay' things. I volunteer at my local LGBT center, but I mostly do things that don't require human interaction. I don't go to parties. Gay movies? Not interested for the most part, especially the festival circuit kinds of movies - simply not my kind of cinema. Gay music? Well... some of it, but I'm a heavy metal fan, so no luck there. Gay holiday destinations? I don't want any people around me on holiday, including gay/bi/trans people. I just have an aversion to big groups of people. I went to 'lesbian basketball' type of thing once, and then we went out for drinks with the team... I was bored stiff because people were discussing stuff I don't find interesting.

Just as an aside, I live in Russia. We have a law that's called "against propaganda of homosexuality, lesbianism, transgenderism, and pedophilia (yes, they put the pedophiles in the same line as LGBT people) to minors". A few days ago in Moscow there was an attack on a club where an event to support LGBT people was held. People got hurt. Do I go to AW and discuss it here? No, because this is my writing space, and I can bet that most of LGBT folk around here really don't need another reason to feel like the world hates them. So I discuss my 'gay' problems with friends, and I discuss my writing problems on AW, and I discuss the intersection in this subforum.
 

evilrooster

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In other words, and with a very bad Shakespearean nod: Render therefore unto Absolute Write the things which are Absolute Write's; and unto gay pride the things that are gay pride's.

Shakespeare. Such a handy dude.

Well, yes, he certainly is. But the only way he was (well, might have been) involved in what you're pastiching is as a translator; the original speaker in this case is Jesus.

Which attribution quibble should not in the least dilute the message.
 
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buz

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I google that stuff. All i get under gay male is hook up sites and porn sites. Wheres the "gay life" sites?

I beg thee for links.

I see now my first post sounded whiney. Sorry about that.

Hey so several of the writers posted being gay isn't a big part of their identity.

That makes me wonder now. Since there are many writing associations that do organize for women exclusively and other minority writers exclusively, and writers tend to be at the forefront of social change, and gay writers don't see the need any longer to organize as gay anything since thats not the key to our identity - if our identities are assimilated within ourselves and the mainstream -

why am I seeing so much stuff in the media about gay marriage, gay rights, boy scouts not letting gays participate etc?

oh my god gayauthors.org on the surface that looks awesome how the heck did you find that? when I google "gay fiction" i got everything but gayauthors.org. Can't wait to look at this. Thank you very much.

The "lesbian writers and lesbian fiction" troubles me. Once again thats women only which goes right to my point. definitely women gather and discuss so its pretty inevitable gay women will do so as well. the organizing of males exclusively has been so demonized as male chauvinistic and discriminatory against women, that men are trained to avoid doing so. The best men can hope for is to be included in co-ed gay forums.

I'm not sure if gayauthors.org includes such co-ed forums for discussion but I sure hope so. I'm certainly going to investigate the site thanks again.



Unimportant, I think I'm after "The International Gay Writer's Guild". I'm after "Blah Blah Lake, a retreat for gay people (of both sexes)" I'm after gay writer's groups. I'm after "a show case of gay writers at the blah blah writer's Center" Not lesbian writers for any of the above. Gay and Lesbian writers for any of the above. I'm after gay literature with topics outside of the gay stereotypes. I'm after the "Gay Memoir Project"
I'm after gay forums where people provide anecdotes of the small moments in their lives where they remember its great to be gay, where its great to be married and other gay people bounce off that.

I think we've conceded AW doesn't ahve much action in that regard and thats fine, since it is a writing forum and we should concentrate on writing. Fair enough and thats correct.

But all the examples I give two paragraphs above are institutional examples of how other minority writers organize and share and network as writers. And those minority retreats, those minority organizations are seeing a lot of action.

Thats what I'm after. Not political action where we're chasing monetary benefits equal to the monetary benefits of straight people. I know we're already doing that.

I mean sharing our assimilation with each other, emotional networking with each other the way other minorities, through blogging, through conferencing, through retreats, through organizations acknowledge and treasure our unique gay identity.

Thats what I'm after.

Okay, I think I see the problem. Well, problems. :D And they're much smaller, less insidious, less broad, and more fixable than you think.

Problem #1: A tendency to interpret a very small number of results as the majority of the world. (Because a few people here said that their QUILTBAG-ness is not that huge a part of their identity, you've interpreted that as "ALL gay people don't feel it's a huge part of their identity." Likewise, I'm assuming that the small number of search results you got when you looked for groups was interpreted as "there are no such things in the world.")

Problem #2: A lack of search engine skills. :D Of course you're going to get porn if you search for something as broad as "gay male." That term is so general as to be useless to you. Likewise, "International Gay Writers Guild" is so specific as to be useless, unless that exact thing exists with that exact wording--but wording can be so variable. You need an in-between--terms specific enough to find what you're after, but not so specific as to be uselessly exclusive. I also suspect that you give up too fast, without changing the wording of your search terms, which can vary the results.

Search for things like "gay writers group" or "lgbt retreat" or "gay retreat" "gay mens retreat" "gay discussion boards" or "gay life forum" or "gay travel" or "lgbt community forum" or use terms like "lgbt community" in relation to your specific location. (Unimportant already gave you some awesome links for things :D ) Even if you search "gay writers," which is quite broad, you come up with gayauthors.org and gaywritingtoday.com (along with lists of great gay authors, and also a bunch of irrelevant stuff, as is always the way with search engines). I even found a workshop for gay and queer writing students in Seattle, run by The Bent Writing Institute, by searching "gay writing showcase."

Saying that such things don't exist because you don't search for them properly is like saying there's no such thing as an Irish Car Bomb Cupcake because I can't find any when I search for "cupcakes." But they certainly exist...:D

Don't be so quick to judge the world, eh? There's so much out there. There's always more than you think. It can be hard, when all you see in your immediate area are closed doors. I succumb to that mindset sometimes, myself, and it's usually to my detriment when I do. But, well, frog in a well, know what I mean?

But, back to the original point, as others have already pointed out: You're welcome to discuss stuff here if you want. :D
 

absitinvidia

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The "lesbian writers and lesbian fiction" troubles me. Once again thats women only which goes right to my point. definitely women gather and discuss so its pretty inevitable gay women will do so as well. the organizing of males exclusively has been so demonized as male chauvinistic and discriminatory against women, that men are trained to avoid doing so. The best men can hope for is to be included in co-ed gay forums.


Wow. Seriously? Because when I take a look around, the popular perception of "gay" and "gay culture" is absolutely dominated by men. Lesbians are kind of an afterthought. Is it really that surprising that there are places for such a small minority population--lesbian writers--to gather?

In this particular context, which is a QUILTBAG-friendly environment, I have to say I find your comments more than a little insulting. In virtually every comment, you're complaining that women are finding their own space, and you're doing it in a forum that's read by a lot of women who are even more marginalized than the typical female. My apologies if this is out of line, but someone needed to say it.
 

Unimportant

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Unimportant, this is a dumb question, but how does one register for lesbianfiction.org? I can't seem to find anywhere to create an account.
Not a dumb question. The admin got tired of dealing with spammers and idiots, so she turned the reg off. But you can email the admin directly and ask to join.
 

Mara

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Not a dumb question. The admin got tired of dealing with spammers and idiots, so she turned the reg off. But you can email the admin directly and ask to join.

Thanks. I don't see an e-mail address anywhere, either, though. Ah well. I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, but I don't see any way for new people to get in touch with anyone or register.
 

DancingMaenid

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It is funny that the OP is 52 and posters down the line think he's a teenager... I think it might be a generational thing, the having of a "gay filter'. I'm in my 20s and I don't do a lot of 'gay' things. I volunteer at my local LGBT center, but I mostly do things that don't require human interaction. I don't go to parties. Gay movies? Not interested for the most part, especially the festival circuit kinds of movies - simply not my kind of cinema. Gay music? Well... some of it, but I'm a heavy metal fan, so no luck there. Gay holiday destinations? I don't want any people around me on holiday, including gay/bi/trans people. I just have an aversion to big groups of people. I went to 'lesbian basketball' type of thing once, and then we went out for drinks with the team... I was bored stiff because people were discussing stuff I don't find interesting.

I don't think it's just a generational thing, because I'm 24 and love being part of an LGBTQ community. And I have friends around my age who do go to the clubs, know all the gay and lesbian musicians, and have their cars and laptops covered in rainbow stickers.

But I do think that finding a comfortable community can be tricky for the exact reasons you state: just because something is LGBTQ-related doesn't mean it will fit your tastes, or that you'll have anything in common with the other people beyond sexuality or gender identity. I'm not big into bars and nightclubs, so I feel like I miss out a lot a lot of chances to meet people and socialize within the local community.

That might be partially the issue here, too: this is a writing forum, which is all right for me because I feel like this forum presents a good opportunity to talk about LGBTQ characters and stories. But not everyone is going to find it the best forum for discussing identity-related things in general, and some people may prefer to find communities that cater more to particular identity groups, rather than LGBTQ people as a whole.

I do feel like there can be a bit of a generation gap. I've found that I don't enjoy a lot of older gay-themed movies that older adults love or see as influential. With some of that stuff, I think you had to have come of age in a different time to appreciate it fully.
 

WritingIsHard

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DancingMaenid, I might be off on the generational thing, but it does seem to me that currently the emphasis is more on gay people being "just like straight people" instead of a community of their own. Inclusion and all that. On one level it's good that your sexual orientation doesn't have to be your subculture anymore, but on the other hand it seems that "being just like straights" just makes people conform more. I mean, I love my extremely flamboyant gay friend, but he will never be "just like any other straight guy", and that should be okay too.
 

Corinne Duyvis

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My biggest issues as a lesbian? Paying the bills on time. What to make for dinner. My fucking deadlines.

OT, but I read that last one as, well, fucking deadlines, and giggled, because I am five.

In this particular context, which is a QUILTBAG-friendly environment, I have to say I find your comments more than a little insulting. In virtually every comment, you're complaining that women are finding their own space, and you're doing it in a forum that's read by a lot of women who are even more marginalized than the typical female. My apologies if this is out of line, but someone needed to say it.

I admit I only skimmed this thread because I'm about to head to bed, but: ditto. I understand that you're frustrated and you're looking for a community, and people here would've been happy to provide you with links for that--as they've already been doing! But continually harping on/complaining about the women-only groups, not wanting lesbians around, and passively blaming us for not being the group you wanted, is not doing you any favors.
 

BenPanced

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To request a "_____________-only" (fill in the blank) room on AW would surely bring down the swift, merciless hammer of Mac.
 

hrj

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Following the trail of breadcrumbs to lesbianfiction.org

Thanks. I don't see an e-mail address anywhere, either, though. Ah well. I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, but I don't see any way for new people to get in touch with anyone or register.

I went over to check out the lesbianfiction.org forum and noticed that you seem to have successfully contacted an admin over there and joined. Any hints for someone interested in doing the same? (I find the AW forums to be a bit of a "drink from the firehose" experience and I'm wondering if a smaller, more focused forum might lead me to participate more regularly.)
 

Corinne Duyvis

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(I find the AW forums to be a bit of a "drink from the firehose" experience and I'm wondering if a smaller, more focused forum might lead me to participate more regularly.)

It was like that for me at first, too. I eased myself into it by only bookmarking two forums at first (Bewares & Background Checks, and Ask the Agent--the most relevant for me since I was querying at the time), then slowly branching out. Right now I'm at nine forums. Still not much, but I see a lot of interesting discussions relevant to me, and I've met a lot of people through here. I feel like I get a lot out of even this limited kind of participation. :)

Don't know if that helps at all, but I thought I'd share.
 

hrj

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It was like that for me at first, too. I eased myself into it by only bookmarking two forums at first (Bewares & Background Checks, and Ask the Agent--the most relevant for me since I was querying at the time), then slowly branching out.

I don't know how well it would work for me. My interests tend to cut across a fairly wide selection of forums, yet all the ones I have interests in also have a lot of material I don't find relevant. One of the things I look for in a forum is a chance to find a "community" where I can get to know people with similar interests, but I don't want to find myself spending all my time on-line and not writing.

There have been a few times when I've made an effort to follow AW on a regular basis and I have a hard time balancing the signal:noise ratio. Don't get me wrong: I think this is a wonderful resource! But I haven't found out how to make it work for my personal quirks and habits yet.
 

MacAllister

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There's nothing to feel even a little bit abashed about -- AW overwhelms ME about three times a week. This was a much smaller place a few years ago, and I'm still not used to the size and speed of the forums, now. :/

Have you looked at some of the lesbian fic/writing listserves (I'm thinking about places like GoldenCrown.org, frex)? Or are you looking specifically for a forum experience?
 

hrj

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I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for. "Community" is too vague. I've never quite gotten the hang of forum sites like this one. Too easy to forget to stick my nose in for weeks at a time and then I feel like a stranger wandering into someone else's party (which makes me less likely to participate, which ... well, you get the idea).

Mostly I want a context where I can talk about writing (and researching, and publishing) with people in a similar place, so I don't bore my non-writing friends to death. I really miss the old usenet group rec.arts.sf.composition before it was murdered by self-serving ...well, never mind that. Nothing has really replaced that group in my own private mental ecosystem.
 

BenPanced

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I don't check out everything, either, even the forums for my chosen genre. I look in from time to time, of course, but I keep my focus on a few specific areas. If I see a topic that looks interesting listed on the front page, I'll click on it but because the size of AW is so daunting, I really don't deviate from my preferred list.

And :welcome:!
 

MacAllister

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I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for. "Community" is too vague. I've never quite gotten the hang of forum sites like this one. Too easy to forget to stick my nose in for weeks at a time and then I feel like a stranger wandering into someone else's party (which makes me less likely to participate, which ... well, you get the idea).

Mostly I want a context where I can talk about writing (and researching, and publishing) with people in a similar place, so I don't bore my non-writing friends to death. I really miss the old usenet group rec.arts.sf.composition before it was murdered by self-serving ...well, never mind that. Nothing has really replaced that group in my own private mental ecosystem.
But it's not just some random stranger's party. It's MY party, and you've met me in meatspace a couple of times, now -- which is a fair bit more than a lot of folks here can say. Someone told one of my mods the other day that they were a close personal friend of mine. But they used male pronouns.... :)

( I do know what you mean. I feel very much the same way when I encounter someone with a few thousand posts that I've never run across before. Then I just sort of mope around feeling freaked out and like a total failure, for a couple of hours. :/ )

It seems perhaps like a smallish online crit-circle/writers group of mostly like-minded or at least have-stuff-in-common folks might better meet your needs?
 
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crunchyblanket

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The difference is that women need women-only clubs to have a safe space to discuss women issues without men showing up and making the discussion about them. Men are not oppressed. They don't need safe spaces. The same way straight people don't need straight spaces, and white people don't need white spaces.

It's an important thing to remember. I've heard the same accusation levelled at the existence of, say, 'the black policeman's association' - why do black policeman get an association, white people say, if we made a 'white policeman's association' we'd be called racist! One rule for some, one rule for others, blah blah.

Except that the police, in this country, IS the 'white policeman's association'. White people don't need a safe space. We are the majority. The same applies to men, straight people, cis people, and all the other groups who benefit from privilege.

So women are entitled to a safe space. For men, everyday life IS their safe space.

The same is true for QUILTBAG folk. I understand having separate categories for gay/lesbian fiction/writers; they are two different spheres of interest.
 

Goldbirch

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I've never quite gotten the hang of forum sites like this one.

There's nothing to feel even a little bit abashed about -- AW overwhelms ME about three times a week.

Aww. Mac and hrj, thank you both for having this conversation out here for the lurkers to see. Sometimes I feel a little odd about eating so often at your party buffet, Mac, while rarely ever bringing a potluck contribution or offering to do the dishes. This has been comforting. So, um, thanks. Great party. Someday I'll get it together to at least bring some carrot sticks or something...

*worries about OT post and ducks back under rock*
 
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hrj

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But it's not just some random stranger's party. It's MY party, and you've met me in meatspace a couple of times, now -- which is a fair bit more than a lot of folks here can say.

And, in fact, that's why I had the nerve to set up an account here at all: tracking you back from some other location.

One of the reasons I'm actively looking for writing community again at the moment is because I finally sent my novel out for consideration so I finally feel like a "real author" as opposed to a wannabe talking about how "some day" I'll have written something. (This is purely my own internal voices talking -- not meant to pass judgement on anybody else's head-space!)

After all, when (not if!) it gets published I'll be wanting advice on how best to promote it, to say nothing of looking for people to squee to. :)
 

BenPanced

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Aww. Mac and hrj, thank you both for having this conversation out here for the lurkers to see. Sometimes I feel a little odd about eating so often at your party buffet, Mac, while rarely ever bringing a potluck contribution or offering to do the dishes. This has been comforting. So, um, thanks. Great party. Someday I'll get it together to at least bring some carrot sticks or something...

*worries about OT post and ducks back under rock*
BenPanced :poke:Goldbirch
And, in fact, that's why I had the nerve to set up an account here at all: tracking you back from some other location.

One of the reasons I'm actively looking for writing community again at the moment is because I finally sent my novel out for consideration so I finally feel like a "real author" as opposed to a wannabe talking about how "some day" I'll have written something. (This is purely my own internal voices talking -- not meant to pass judgement on anybody else's head-space!)

After all, when (not if!) it gets published I'll be wanting advice on how best to promote it, to say nothing of looking for people to squee to. :)
You became a real author the day you sat down and put pen to paper. We don't make any distinction, and the only real "hierarchy" around here are the mods and rockers users. We're pretty much all on equal footing here so any news you have about your writing will always be welcome.
 

Gale Haut

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I don't check out everything, either, even the forums for my chosen genre. I look in from time to time, of course, but I keep my focus on a few specific areas. If I see a topic that looks interesting listed on the front page, I'll click on it but because the size of AW is so daunting, I really don't deviate from my preferred list.

And :welcome:!

If I hadn't discovered vBulletin's subscribe options, I wouldn't have been able to stick around. I wonder how much this affects the SYW sections. I was a lot more helpful with critiques in my previous communities, but since they are a separate protected section here, I rarely bother visiting them at AW.
 

MacAllister

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And, in fact, that's why I had the nerve to set up an account here at all: tracking you back from some other location.

One of the reasons I'm actively looking for writing community again at the moment is because I finally sent my novel out for consideration so I finally feel like a "real author" as opposed to a wannabe talking about how "some day" I'll have written something. (This is purely my own internal voices talking -- not meant to pass judgement on anybody else's head-space!)

After all, when (not if!) it gets published I'll be wanting advice on how best to promote it, to say nothing of looking for people to squee to. :)

Oh Oh! Where have you sent it, if we may ask? We can bite our nails waiting to hear back with you. :) I LOVE that part.
 

MacAllister

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Aww. Mac and hrj, thank you both for having this conversation out here for the lurkers to see. Sometimes I feel a little odd about eating so often at your party buffet, Mac, while rarely ever bringing a potluck contribution or offering to do the dishes. This has been comforting. So, um, thanks. Great party. Someday I'll get it together to at least bring some carrot sticks or something...

*worries about OT post and ducks back under rock*

Oh good heavens -- nothing to worry about, there, Goldbirch. We're glad you're here, and the beauty of a buffet the size of AW's is that there's so much we get to send home leftovers with pretty much everyone.
 
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