Is High Fantasy Unbalanced without the Core Races?

Lady Chipmunk

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Fade to Black is listed as Gothic Romance in at least one place. O,o. And UF (it isn't except for in as far as "it takes place in a city..") and a few more that make me scratch my head a bit.

Urban fantasy has become its own little mess of terms. I have heard the label applied to stories with fantastical elements that happen in cities, stories in the modern world with supernatural elements, stories where the city itself is supernatural, etc.

And then there are the distinctions between urban fantasy, contemporary fantasy, paranormal romance, etc.

The fact is labeling anything is open to interpretation, and as trends in writing shift, as they always do, those labels get more and more elastic.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've seen historical books listed as urban fantasies too, which sort of boggles my mind. I guess all the werewolves and vampires or secret society of mythological creatures can be in Victorian London (wouldn't that be a gaslight), or Colonial Boston, or ancient Rome or something.
 

Mr Flibble

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The fact is labeling anything is open to interpretation, and as trends in writing shift, as they always do, those labels get more and more elastic.

Oh for sure. As long as people can find the books they want to read (and discuss them), it's all good to me. The only problem I had with say, calling it UF, is that a few people then went in expecting it to be something it wasn't, and were disappointed because of it.
 

amergina

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I think this is where we fall into the issue of UF as a marketing category in the bookstore and UF as a subgenre in a more academic way.
 

CrastersBabies

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Yeah, I think we've been down this road before with trying to define the various subgenres of fantasy. I could read one very articulate and thoughtful article on this, only to find another one (equally as fine) that disagrees.

Now, excuse me while I go browse the Gothic Romance genre because, hmmm.... ;)
 

ClareGreen

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Oh for sure. As long as people can find the books they want to read (and discuss them), it's all good to me. The only problem I had with say, calling it UF, is that a few people then went in expecting it to be something it wasn't, and were disappointed because of it.

In the strictest sense, Fade to Black is very much an Urban Fantasy.

It is a fantasy wot 'appens in a city.

That the vampires and the werewolves weren't duking it out would have to be a disappointment for those poor readers, though.
 

Mr Flibble

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Yeah that's what I mean -- UF readers (often) expect certain conventions. I failed to deliver...

Though to me, UF doesn't need paranormal creatures (I always go by the first UF I read, which was Wizard of the Pigeons. Bloody awesome, city as a character...no paranormal creatures) but the definition has moved on since then. In fact it seems to mean different things in the UK and the US (in the US there seems to be an expectation for kick ass women in leather? Oh well, I got that part right!)

I always thought UF was set in this world too, only slightly altered. But hey ho. :) Like I say, as long as people are using definitions to find and talk about books they love, it's all good.

It is a fantasy wot 'appens in a city.

The UF genre just quadrupled in size then! :D I know what you mean though
 
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Lady Chipmunk

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Someone else mentioned the gritty noir tone as a hallmark of UF, and much like the idea of city as character, that seems to have been swamped by a broader definition of the sub-genre.

Now, I write UF, and it deals with a lot of the more common tropes: paranormal creatures, hidden world, high power level of the protagonist. So, the expansion of definition is good for me.

However, it is a great microcosm example of how sub-genres shift. A does something new-ish or at least makes a twist on the old conventions. It does well, more people do it, a sub-genre is born. Then B comes along and does a twist on what A did, and it's still part of the sub-genre, but also not, so the definition expands. Rinse and repeat.

But, as Mr. Flibble said, as long as people can find the stuff they like, this isn't an issue. And, honestly, more than once I've picked up something I thought would be standard UF (by my understanding) and found it to be something else entirely. That I adored.

Which is awesome because I am guilty of comfort ruts. I find stuff I like and read a lot of that, but it means I miss out on other incredible things not of that type that I'd also love.

And I am struggling to circle back to a point here, and failing, so I guess I'll leave it at that. ;)
 

Roxxsmom

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I always thought UF was set in this world too, only slightly altered. But hey ho. :) Like I say, as long as people are using definitions to find and talk about books they love, it's all good.

That's my core assumption about UF. That it takes place in the real world, in a city that is not fictional (though it can have a hidden dimension, obviously) that is so ubiquitous to the story that it almost becomes a character, and is usually contemporary. The expectation that there's some kind of magic or secret society of mythic or paranormal beings that is invisible to normal folks also seems to be a part of it. And yeah, a certain amount of darkness also seems to be part of it now. The protagonist may be decent at heart but be more of a reluctant heroine/hero with a somewhat jaded view of things.

And yeah, in recent years, it seems to be heavy on leather-wearing, female protagonists. Or maybe that's just cover design and not how it's actually written.

You mentioned Wizard of the Pigeons, which is by Megan Lindholm (Robin Hobb's other pen name, which she seems to use for her title that fall outside the epic fantasy category). She's an American writer, yet I had to go to Amazon UK to get a copy of that book. It appears to be out of print in the US, and not available here in e-form at all.

I assume it's because it falls more in line with what British readers currently want from UF.

And Lady Chipmunk, I know what you mean by "comfort ruts." I've been that way about secondary world fantasy, I think. I like certain things and tend to gravitate towards them. This is a down side of everything being shoehorned into specific subgenres. You can miss stuff that's really good that falls outside your normal comfort zone.
 
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Aggy B.

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That's my core assumption about UF. That it takes place in the real world, in a city that is not fictional (though it can have a hidden dimension, obviously) that is so ubiquitous to the story that it almost becomes a character, and is usually contemporary. The expectation that there's some kind of magic or secret society of mythic or paranormal beings that is invisible to normal folks also seems to be a part of it. And yeah, a certain amount of darkness also seems to be part of it now. The protagonist may be decent at heart but be more of a reluctant heroine/hero with a somewhat jaded view of things.

That's an overlap of/with Wainscot Fantasy. Which, to my mind, was a tad more popular when Chesterton and Williams were writing fantasy, but also branches into more contemporary conspiracy-minded fiction (like From Hell and The X-Files.)

Aggy, out of intelligent things to say
 

Roxxsmom

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Yeah, I was thinking of wainscot fantasy when I wrote that. I'm thinking many UF books do overlap with wainscot, at least in the US. But the difference lies in the focus on an urban setting that is primarily mundane. The standard UF heros I can think of actually live, at least partially, in the mundane world, but serve as some sort of intermediary. They often seem to be cops, emissaries or agents of some kind, and often seem to be humans with some special power to see or interact with a world they're not fully a part of, possibly even demi humans (and so are often not fully accepted by the world of elves, werewolves, vampires or whatever).

Harry Potter is often given as an example of a contemporary wainscot fantasy that isn't UF.
 
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Yeah that's what I mean -- UF readers (often) expect certain conventions. I failed to deliver...

Though to me, UF doesn't need paranormal creatures (I always go by the first UF I read, which was Wizard of the Pigeons. Bloody awesome, city as a character...no paranormal creatures) but the definition has moved on since then. In fact it seems to mean different things in the UK and the US (in the US there seems to be an expectation for kick ass women in leather? Oh well, I got that part right!)

I always thought UF was set in this world too, only slightly altered. But hey ho. :) Like I say, as long as people are using definitions to find and talk about books they love, it's all good.



The UF genre just quadrupled in size then! :D I know what you mean though


I always see the academic definition as the traditional real world urban setting where the city is such as a strong presence as to almost be a character in the story. But the marketing folks found they could push stuff much more similar to contemp and paranormal romance as "urban fantasy" to catch the wave to a bunch more sails, and now everything's all mixed up.