Is this a reasonable rule to follow?

nastyjman

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I've made a rule for myself, along with W1/S1. If a story gets rejected five times, I must submit it online for critique, which makes the piece unpublishable in future mags or ezines. The flip-side is that I get to learn my mistakes and get to publish them on my blog (still under construction).

Is five times too much? Or too little?
 

fihr

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nastyjman, you can submit your story online for critique in a password protected forum which won't show up on search bots. So it's not officially published and you can then keep submitting.

There are a number of online workshops and critique groups that are password protected. There is also Share Your Work, here on Absolute Write, which can be good for scenes, short works or chapters.

You just have to make sure it's password protected, so that the work is not publicly available.
 

Izz

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I've made a rule for myself, along with W1/S1. If a story gets rejected five times, I must submit it online for critique, which makes the piece unpublishable in future mags or ezines. The flip-side is that I get to learn my mistakes and get to publish them on my blog (still under construction).

Is five times too much? Or too little?
jman (can i call you jman?), i'm not sure where you've been posting stories for crit, but if the crit area is password-protected (like SYW here), they should still be considered unpublished.

For this reason, a lot of writers put a story up for crit before they send it anywhere, in the hopes that critiquers will help them strengthen the story. :)
 

V1c

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What they said. Also, basically retiring a story after five attempts seems like giving up a bit too easily. Some of mine have numerous, numerous, rejections and then up getting to the editor who it clicks with. Critiques are great, but don't give away the story because 5 randomish people said no!
 

nastyjman

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Thanks! Nice to know about the password-protected critique workshop (AWESOME!) I have membership on other writing forums, but the critique forum there is not password-protected (not awesome.)

I'll try to get some of my Short WIPs there once I get to 50 posts. Until then: scribble-scribble-tappity-tappy.
 
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fihr

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I'll try to get some of my Short WIPs there once I get to 50 posts. Until then: scribble-scribble-tappity-tappy.

A good way to make sure you get feedback when you put your work up here is to critique the works of others there in advance. So some of those fifty posts might be well-spent critiquing work in the SYW area you intend to post your own work in. Then people may wish to return the favour.

I can't tell how experienced a writer you are, but I think there are sticky posts on critiquing guidelines there somewhere, if you're unsure how to begin. Hope it goes well!
 

Izz

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There's also this thread (though not especially active) here in the W1S1 room, for requesting private beta reads & crits.

And yeah, as V1c says, 5 Rs isn't all that many. Personally, if i get 5 or less Rs on a story before i sell it i consider that a massive success.

A good way to make sure you get feedback when you put your work up here is to critique the works of others there in advance. So some of those fifty posts might be well-spent critiquing work in the SYW area you intend to post your own work in. Then people may wish to return the favour.

I can't tell how experienced a writer you are, but I think there are sticky posts on critiquing guidelines there somewhere, if you're unsure how to begin. Hope it goes well!
+1
 

ACFantasy

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At Capclave last year, there was a panel on 'ways to use unpublished stories.' During that panel, the panelists discussed the "I'm sure it's good, but nobody will buy it" problem. Interestingly, some of them seemed to favor reconsidering the "I'm sure it's good" part after only a few rejections. One panelist--I believe it was Laura Anne Gilman, but I was taking notes very quickly so it might have been another panelist--said that if you get one rejection, maybe it's just the editor not clicking with the story, but by the time you get to three, it's more likely to be a problem with the story that you should identify and fix. So after three or so rejections, she argued, it's a good idea to take another hard look at the story, maybe get some feedback, to see if such a problem exists.

I haven't gotten enough rejections yet to really put this into practice... most of my stories were first submitted in the last three months, so they only have one or two rejections. (I do have one story with five rejections, which I them rewrote from the ground up before starting try #6).
 
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Izz

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At Capclave last year, there was a panel on 'ways to use unpublished stories.' During that panel, the panelists discussed the "I'm sure it's good, but nobody will buy it" problem. Interestingly, some of them seemed to favor reconsidering the "I'm sure it's good" part after only a few rejections. One panelist--I believe it was Laura Anne Gilman, but I was taking notes very quickly so it might have been another panelist--said that if you get one rejection, maybe it's just the editor not clicking with the story, but by the time you get to three, it's more likely to be a problem with the story that you should identify and fix. So after three or so rejections, it's a good idea to take another hard look at the story, maybe get some feedback, to see if such a problem exists.
I can see the merits of this advice, but like all advice (including mine--shock horror, i know :D) it might work for you, it might not, context and situation might make it more effective or less effective, etc.

It's all a balance thing, imo, and probably dependent on where we sit on the writing tree.

If we regularly sell to the pros and get 3 or 5 or how-ever-many-we've-determined Rs on a story, then yes, it may well be time to revise and rework. But if we don't sell regularly to the pros, then maybe not. For example: say my typical subbing order goes Clarkesworld, Lightspeed, Asimov's, F&SF, tor.com. If they all reject the story, should i be worried? What if it's then rejected by Shimmer, Strange Horizons, Arc, Interfictions & LORE? Nope, i still wouldn't be rushing to rewrite, unless i've gotten definitive feedback in those rejections that i can use.

But as i say, different writers will operate different ways.

Some writers prefer getting feedback on stories before they send them out, and then once they're sent out moving onto the next, only rewriting if they get a request or strong editorial feedback from multiple venues that there's a problem (i used to be strongly in this camp).

Some writers send stories out, and then get feedback after a certain number of rejections if it hasn't sold.

Other writers just write stories and send them out, never looking for feedback and only rewriting to editorial request (i'm heading more into this camp, though i flit between this and the first a fair bit still).

And others have other processes :)

We've all got to find (and do) whatever works for us.

As an aside: While i'm typically a person who likes to write a story and move on, for the first half of this year, my W1S1 challenge does consist of heavy rewrites on older stories, and them getting them back out there. Typically, though, these are stories i knew there were issues with but sent out anyway. I had a real issue up until recently with sending out stories way before they were ready--i knew it most of the time, too, but was just too eager; so, in another sidenote: i'd advise trusting your gut if it tells you a story isn't ready yet, because your gut is usually right.

Anyhoo, i'm rambling, and i should probably get back to the spreadsheets that earn me money. :tongue
 
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Kaitlin Brianna

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if you get one rejection, maybe it's just the editor not clicking with the story, but by the time you get to three, it's more likely to be a problem with the story that you should identify and fix.

I don't necessarily believe that - I don't think there's any way to know unless those 3 editors sent you personal rejections with the same criticism. If I send a story to 3 pro markets that each get hundreds of submissions per month, and mine is not chosen as one of the 4 (or whatever) stories that each publishes, I don't think it means much.

Of course, getting some fresh eyes on a story isn't a bad idea anyway.
 

ACFantasy

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Oh, I didn't mean to argue that such advice should be taken as gospel. Just presenting a statement on the issue that other people might not have been familiar with, unless they went to the same conference.

As for me, I'll probably need to accrue a lot more rejections before it really comes up. :)
 

Old Hack

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At Capclave last year, there was a panel on 'ways to use unpublished stories.' During that panel, the panelists discussed the "I'm sure it's good, but nobody will buy it" problem. Interestingly, some of them seemed to favor reconsidering the "I'm sure it's good" part after only a few rejections. One panelist--I believe it was Laura Anne Gilman, but I was taking notes very quickly so it might have been another panelist--said that if you get one rejection, maybe it's just the editor not clicking with the story, but by the time you get to three, it's more likely to be a problem with the story that you should identify and fix. So after three or so rejections, she argued, it's a good idea to take another hard look at the story, maybe get some feedback, to see if such a problem exists.

There are other reasons why work gets rejected: an obvious and common one is that it's sent to the wrong market. An extreme example would be submitting a romance to a magazine which publishes only SF/F.

If you rewrote or discarded a story which had failed to sell under these conditions, you'd be making a mistake.
 

Project Deadlight

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Gentle J-man, (may I call you that? You seem nice), I think you need to have a system of your own that doesn't totally sap all your enthusiasm and confidence. At present I'm not sure a post-5-rejections review is sensible as if your story needs reviewing, it needs reviewing prior to subbing to the biggest markets. And as others have said, 5 rejections mean little from the big markets.

I try to write, have two good people look at it, if the comments are still confusing get one more pair of eyes to look over it, then send out to the world and try to forget about it. Then I don't look back on the piece unless a) a personal rejection points out something incredibly specific that I agree with or b) a year has passed and the piece is getting only form rejections from more than 20 markets.

There is a forum here where you can seek out readers and not post publicly. :)
 

nastyjman

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And here I thought 5 Rs was too much.

Thank you so much for the advice everyone. I have a beta-reader at my work who is an English major (thank goodness)! So far, he has given great critiques and suggestions on some of my writing. But sometimes, they're not in-depth. My sister helps me out too, and I always beg her to be honest and blunt about my writing. Same with my husband; he tells me what works and what doesn't.

As for online critiquing, I like a brutal or blunt critique. If no one says something bad about my writing, I feel that I'm not getting the most out of the critique. I do know that it is in my discretion to either take it or not. Usually I do--especially if I have second thoughts on a certain area.
 

Aislinn

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And here I thought 5 Rs was too much.

Thank you so much for the advice everyone. I have a beta-reader at my work who is an English major (thank goodness)! So far, he has given great critiques and suggestions on some of my writing. But sometimes, they're not in-depth.

I was starting to have the same issue with my early readers so I joined the online critique group Critters this year. Basically you have to in-depth critique one story a week in return for getting anywhere between 10-30 critiques of one of your stories per month. The group is password-protected, so first rights to the revised story are still available once you've used all those ideas to polish it. The in-depth critiquing of other people's stories is just as valuable as receiving critiques on your own story.

I don't think your '5 markets' rule is too odd - that's really up to you - and I understand your need for thorough critiques, but I'd strongly suggest not throwing away first rights through your revisions process. If the critique process and revisions help you create a super-awesome story, you want to be able to sell it!
 

Batspan

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Excellent responses to this. Just to amplify on the issue of rejection, there are many reasons editors turn down stories, and many of them don't reflect on the quality of your work.

One of mine that was shortlisted at a pro publication came back with a note that they decided against it because it didn't fit well with the stories for the rest of that issue. I noticed another writer's happy dance over a complimentary rejection because the magazine recently accepted a similar story by a major name.

I've also seen success stories here and elsewhere for stories that sold after more than 20 subs. Anne Rice's "Interview with a Vampire" racked up more than 20 rejections.

How much critiquing and revision might be needed depends on the writer's level and the specific story.
Because I submit from the top down, I don't take the Rs as any kind of slam on the story. The odds are pretty outrageous. The places I start with only accept 2% or less of subs.

I'll revise something any time I can improve it, whether it's been out three times or eight times. Fihr gave good advice on doing critiques as a way to prepare the way to get some.
 
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Ephiny0

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I agree about the many possible reasons for rejection. Most of the pro markets, as far as I can tell, reject at least 99% of the submissions they get. And while many of those will be stories that are wrong for the market, or have major flaws or are not up to the required standard, quite a lot will be good, well-written stories, rejected because of fit, or similarity to other stories, or because another story just happened to grab that particular editor a little bit more strongly and they couldn't publish both. A rejection (or five!) doesn't necessarily mean your story is not good enough to be published.

Critique groups can be useful. I have mixed feelings about critiques for myself, as I often find the more line-edit focused ones not very helpful. But they can be useful if I'm not feeling confident that my story says what I intended it to, or if I want a second opinion about pacing, likeability of a character etc.

Definitely agree about finding a password-protected site if you want to join an online group, so you're not needlessly giving away your rights. Critters is a free good one (though does require a regular committment), and there's the SFF OWW if you write speculative fiction or horror (paid subscriptions, but you can sign up for a free trial, I think).