Space Marine and Dragonwrangler Bar & Grill

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jallenecs

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That's why they say it. I've noticed a pattern among people of that particular nature: They love to play the victim. Just look at how they phrase their efforts to stop same-sex marriage. They don't say "we don't want them gays to marry!", they say "it's an attack on traditional marriage", or "an attack on religious freedom."

Everything they say and every way they say it is specifically designed to paint the opposition as the bad guy. We don't want equal rights under the law, we want to force our evil on their churches and their children!

Look at it another way. Did it ever occur to you that they're afraid?

They don't understand what you are. They don't understand how you feel or what made you feel it. If they acknowledge you as a gay person, what does that say about them? If gay is "normal," what does it say about their own sexuality. What would it take to make THEM just like YOU?

Some people -- like us here in the Cantina -- deal with the Unknown by studying up on it. But not everybody does it that way. Some get scared. And when they get scared, they sometimes get angry.

We're writers in here. Understanding the Other is part of our job; we have to sympathize with the villains, at least enough to write him believably. That would be an interesting writing exercise: write a homophobe as a believable, if not entirely sympathetic character.


For the Record: I'm not saying I agree with anything they're saying. But I have to try to understand them, even if I don't agree. And just like I don't judge the gay, I can't judge the homophobe, either (Now you can see why "Loving my neighbor" is all the Holy Work I can handle).
 

Raventongue

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Crud crud crud crud, I hate when I send an email that's supposed to have a file attached and forget to add the silly friggin' file. It makes me look so stupid. It's like, "Monthly crit group? Here's my submission that isn't actually here and you cannot read because I forgot the whole purpose of this e-mail. Enjoy!"
 

Reservoir Angel

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Look at it another way. Did it ever occur to you that they're afraid?

They don't understand what you are. They don't understand how you feel or what made you feel it. If they acknowledge you as a gay person, what does that say about them? If gay is "normal," what does it say about their own sexuality. What would it take to make THEM just like YOU?
I understand that view, I really do. But it seems to me that the obvious thing to do in that situation, especially when you're confronted with an actual gay person, would be to talk to them. To actually have a conversation about it so they might better enlighten themselves.

But in all the conversations/arguments I've had with homophobes of all kinds (both religious and non), not one person has attempted to do that. I'd be more than willing to discuss it with them in more detail, but it seems to me they would prefer to simply plug their fingers in their ears and hurl abuse or regurgitate what their equally homophobic parents, friends/minister/news channel has told them about us rather than try to genuinely engage on any kind of intellectual level so they might bettwe understand and grow as a person because of it.

We're writers in here. Understanding the Other is part of our job; we have to sympathize with the villains, at least enough to write him believably. That would be an interesting writing exercise: write a homophobe as a believable, if not entirely sympathetic character.
If I decide to write the story that's dancing in my brain, I'm going to have to do this since one sub-plot involves a religious woman trying to come to terms with her youngest son being gay.

God knows that's going to be one hell of a challenge, writing a character that is the complete antithesis of myself.


For the Record: I'm not saying I agree with anything they're saying. But I have to try to understand them, even if I don't agree. And just like I don't judge the gay, I can't judge the homophobe, either (Now you can see why "Loving my neighbor" is all the Holy Work I can handle).
Being brutally honest, I do the same as them. I criticse them for being close-minded bigots unwilling to even try and understand anything about homosexuality beyond "they do sex the way God hates", but I've spent a good chunk of my time blindly insulting them in my own way.

In my defence, I did try at first. I really did. But when you hear the same recycled nonsense over and over again, you just start to stop thinking too critically about it and handwave the lot of them away as idiotic crazy people.
 

Fenika

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So this odd thread in sff. I didnt click on it. But i reported it. Yeahhhhh.
 

jallenecs

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But in all the conversations/arguments I've had with homophobes of all kinds (both religious and non), not one person has attempted to do that. I'd be more than willing to discuss it with them in more detail, but it seems to me they would prefer to simply plug their fingers in their ears and hurl abuse or regurgitate what their equally homophobic parents, friends/minister/news channel has told them about us rather than try to genuinely engage on any kind of intellectual level so they might bettwe understand and grow as a person because of it.

The very fact that you cannot have a reasonable conversation with them only reinforces my belief that they are afraid. People who have a rational argument don't react like that. Only scared people do.

The older I get, the more I mostly feel sorry for them. It must be hard to be so unsure of who they are and unsure of what their place in the world is, to be so frightened all the time.... It's a terrible way to live.
 

Raventongue

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I can reserve judgment just fine... Until I have to deal with them in person. Then not so much.

I don't really think, though, that any group being oppressed has some kind of responsibility to meet abuse and ignorance and stupidness with grace and dignity. Option, yes, good idea, yes, obligation, no.

It's not up to gay people to defuse the situation, it's up to homophobes not to create a situation that needs to be defused.
 

Raventongue

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Gaaaaah, I never see the "low battery" warning until I barely have enough power left to say goodnight. Goodnight, folks, take care, and be well :)
 

jallenecs

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I can reserve judgment just fine... Until I have to deal with them in person. Then not so much.

I don't really think, though, that any group being oppressed has some kind of responsibility to meet abuse and ignorance and stupidness with grace and dignity. Option, yes, good idea, yes, obligation, no.

It's not up to gay people to defuse the situation, it's up to homophobes not to create a situation that needs to be defused.

Agreed. But I'm an oldish woman from the back woods, with no prospects of being anything else (except older). Solving the World's Problems isn't on my radar. I can only deal with people one at a time. Hence my parochial approach.
 

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Fear does a lot to people. It really does. That's why there's been so much progress in the past thirty years - once people start to know people who are gay, once their sisters and brothers are the ones that are supposable corrupting the world, once people start to realise that for some the self awareness that they are gay happens at six, (not talking sexual feelings, just crushes and deciding you're going to marry the person on the TV) then it becomes harder to demonise a population.

Seriously, people tend to become more open once they realise they're going to be shouting these things/saying these things at 6 year olds.

I have these massive debates with a friend of mine who is very religious. I remember asking her once "what does it matter to you, what these people do isn't going to hurt you." She said "you've got to think about the world your kids will grow up in." Me "what if they're gay"

It didn't change her mind, but it made her nicer about it, and made her think about things. And I think it's a good rule of thumb - what if your kids were a, b or c? Would you feel scared of your child if that was the case?

Fear makes people irrational. Knowing and loving people is the cure of fear, imo

Also, all above is strictly imho. I could be totally wrong :)
 

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The older I get, the more I mostly feel sorry for them. It must be hard to be so unsure of who they are and unsure of what their place in the world is, to be so frightened all the time.... It's a terrible way to live.
Yes, I know all about that. Because I lived through it. I got over it, wised up and learned what's what, I'm just waiting for them to try and meet me half way. Or even a quarter of the way. I honestly don't care if they personally don't approve of my lifestyle, I just wish they'd have a clear idea of why they don't rather than informing their disapproval based on half-truths, lies, slander and one sentence in a book written centuries ago. Since as far as I'm aware Leviticus 18:22 is the only time the man-on-man loving is overtly mentioned in the Bible. Though admittedly I may be wrong about that. A Biblical scholar I most certainly am not.
 

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For me personally, it's possible to be symapthetic and angry at the same time. I agree with Junely, it must be a horrible way to live, being that fearful. I feel sorry for them But I also firm in my belief that I can be royally pissed off and angry if that fear makes life terrible for other people. It isn't fearful homophobes that have the largest rate of teenage suicide in my country.
 

jallenecs

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Yes, I know all about that. Because I lived through it. I got over it, wised up and learned what's what, I'm just waiting for them to try and meet me half way. Or even a quarter of the way. I honestly don't care if they personally don't approve of my lifestyle, I just wish they'd have a clear idea of why they don't rather than informing their disapproval based on half-truths, lies, slander and one sentence in a book written centuries ago. Since as far as I'm aware Leviticus 18:22 is the only time the man-on-man loving is overtly mentioned in the Bible. Though admittedly I may be wrong about that. A Biblical scholar I most certainly am not.

I spent much of my youth afraid. Not for the same reasons, granted, but yeah, I feel you. I got over it, too, for the most part; I'm afraid of other people, but I'm not afraid of who I am or where I belong. Good on you for figuring it out so young; you got there ahead of me.

There is one other oblique mention in the Old Testament, forbidding men to dress in women's clothes, or women to dress in men's. I was never clear on why it mattered, but there it is. Frankly, more of a fuss was made over David and Bathsheba, or Shechem and Dinah, and that was man-on-woman (though deeply icky, for different reasons).

The best I can figure, the biggest Bible Thumpers are also afraid. They've spent their entire lives living by what they were taught and from the Bible. If their teachings or the Bible is wrong on that, what else might it be wrong about? That's scary to think about.
 

Reservoir Angel

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I spent much of my youth afraid. Not for the same reasons, granted, but yeah, I feel you. I got over it, too, for the most part; I'm afraid of other people, but I'm not afraid of who I am or where I belong. Good on you for figuring it out so young; you got there ahead of me.
Depends how you define 'young'. It took me until I was at least 17 to be completely comfortable with who I am. Some would say I was a bit late to the game on that front. Some would say I'm still not entirely there yet since I'm still not completely open about it.

There is one other oblique mention in the Old Testament, forbidding men to dress in women's clothes, or women to dress in men's. I was never clear on why it mattered, but there it is. Frankly, more of a fuss was made over David and Bathsheba, or Shechem and Dinah, and that was man-on-woman (though deeply icky, for different reasons).
They have something against dressing in drag too? That settles it, I can never be religious. :D

]The best I can figure, the biggest Bible Thumpers are also afraid. They've spent their entire lives living by what they were taught and from the Bible. If their teachings or the Bible is wrong on that, what else might it be wrong about? That's scary to think about.
What's that old saying? "We fear what we do not understand, we hate what we understand even less."

I understand why they feel the need to cling so desperately to their preconcieved notions about my sexuality. One thing is proven wrong, that could be like a line of dominos for some people. This is the problem with having an all-knowing infallable being in a world that continues to make massive strides in the areas of human understanding. You run the risk of your infallable being suddenly ending up looking very foolish when he says the Earth is 6,000 years old but science says it's several billion years old.
 

LadyV

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Oh man, I know the feeling, I sat down for 90 minutes this morning and got a measly 200 words. People think I'm insane for liking editing, but maybe I only like it in comparison to how much I hate writing the first draft. :D
I'm in the same boat. Getting the first words down is the hardest part for me. Editing is just adding or rearranging what's already there. Unless it entails a total rewrite. *groans*


Well, I managed 230 more words, so I'm officially done for the evening. Time to watch some TV. See you all tomorrow!
 

Reservoir Angel

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I hate that it's 2:20am. I want to carry on watching The Hour but it's too late now. :(

It's not the minority's job to educate the bigot. It's the bigot's job to educate themselves.
Also within reason I agree with this. If the bigot is at least willing to have a proper conversation I'll meet them half way but if they just want to hurl abuse then that's their loss and I won't even try to seriously reason with them.
 
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jallenecs

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Also within reason I agree with this. If the bigot is at least willing to have a proper conversation I'll meet them half way but if they just want to hurl abuse then that's their loss and I won't even try to seriously reason with them.

To be realistic, probably the best solution is time. When my mother was in school, coming out was a way to get yourself a trip to the hospital. In my day, coming out was a way to get yourself socially ostracized. My children's generation, coming out is a source of gossip, no more to be censured than cheating on your sweetheart. In another generation, it's not going to make the least bit of difference.

Is that fair? Hell, no. Is it probably how it's going to play out? Yeah. Sucks.
 

jallenecs

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BTW: I'm not gonna be able to do word wars tomorrow after all. I have to take Younger Daughter to the hospital to have an endoscopy done. I thought it was later in the week.

I'll be getting up early so I can get word count before I have to leave. Anybody want to get up at 6:00 AM EST to do word wars, I'll be here. Otherwise, I'm out for most of the day.
 

BigWords

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Not to sound like a jerk, since I did basically just agree with you, but I think you'll find there's a whole lot of talking going on in most shows.

Try Cleopatra 2525. About half a dozen lines of dialogue per episode, and twenty minutes of fighting, explosions, more fighting, endless running, and possibly even the hint of a plot.

On the other hand, I've had dreams in sign language before, which is bizarre on several levels.

I had a dream about a passport control where everyone spoke Klingon. Not sure what that should be taken as meaning... :Shrug:

Looking back over what I've written here in the last hour, I realized that I said something incredibly stupid.

I can't talk about comic books. I've not read one since about 1990. And it was DC.

*hangs head in shame*

I got that covered for you - font of useless knowledge that I am... :D

Oh, and shameless plug for the website.

Crud crud crud crud, I hate when I send an email that's supposed to have a file attached and forget to add the silly friggin' file.

Wait until you send a sub somewhere with the story not attached. Yes, I have done that. yes (amazingly), people are understanding of my failings... I did get a rather amusing e-mail back about the lack of the attached file.

BTW: I'm not gonna be able to do word wars tomorrow after all. I have to take Younger Daughter to the hospital to have an endoscopy done. I thought it was later in the week.

Is everything okay?
 

jallenecs

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BigWords: Sarah's got a chronic stomach issue that three trips to the doctor and three rounds of tests have yet to diagnose.
 

BigWords

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Hopefully they work out what is wrong, and it isn't serious.

And three trips is nothin'. You should see my chart by now...
 

jallenecs

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Hopefully they work out what is wrong, and it isn't serious.

And three trips is nothin'. You should see my chart by now...


Sarah's a tough girl; she's on a first name basis with her audiologist, and deals with nearly constant respiratory issues. She ain't happy about this stomach business, but she'll tough it out. According to her, at least it's a nice change of pace from pneumonia and ear infections. :D

I'm very proud of her.
 

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Thanks. The funeral is on Wednesday afternoon in London. I'll be taking the afternoon off work and travelling up. I can't really not go.

Eye, I didn't mean to skip over you needing a hug. Sorry. :(

Whether he said it zero times, or whether he said it twice a day for thirty two years, not relevant.

What he said that is relevant: "Judge not."

Whether you're Christian or pagan or atheist or agnostic or just don't give a rat's ass one way or the other, "judge not" is sound advice.


Amen. From another church-y person.

Last two are QFT

From a 100% non-Churchy person, even I can agree with this. Despite not believing in the whole "divine son of God" business, I will agree that "judge not " is really some damn good advice.

Of course, in relation specifically to the thing I most argue with religious people about, their justification of judging me for being gay is "I don't judge you as a person, I just don't approve of your choice of behaviour."

Apparently that works as some kind of loophole. I don't pretend to understand how.

Like most loopholes it's built by the Devil.

BigWords: Sarah's got a chronic stomach issue that three trips to the doctor and three rounds of tests have yet to diagnose.

Hugs to Sarah. I hope she gets it fixed soon. I know how those nasty buggars can go.

ION: Lurking, lurking, I'm still lurking. :D
 

jallenecs

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For the record, yet again: Have I mentioned recently how much I love you guys and love the Cantina?

I love the silliness and innuendo and general horsing around. But I also love that, when the conversation gets heavy -- like today -- we can discuss it, and express different opinions, without feeling the need to jab at each other. That is sooooo rare.
 
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