period before quotation marks ALWAYS?

TellMeAStory said:

I was just told this, in reference to writing in America. If true, that would mean that instead of writing

The waitress said, "We're out of coffee," and all hell broke loose.

I should write

The waitress said. "We're out of coffee," and all hell broke loose.

This makes no sense to me. What do you say?

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I'm far, far from an expert, but in the standard American convention to me would be:

The waitress said, "We're out of coffee." (para break because it's a new action. Unless we're in the waitress's deep POV.)
And all hell broke loose.

I suspect what whoever told you that was thinking more about this:

"We're out of coffee."

vs

"We're out of coffee".

TellMeAStory said:

The waitress said, "We're out of coffee," and all hell broke loose.

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That is correct.

Jennontheisland and guttersquid are correct. The rule for U.S. publications is the period (and comma) are always placed before the end quote mark.

jennontheisland said:

I suspect what whoever told you that was thinking more about this:

"We're out of coffee."

vs

"We're out of coffee".

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I agree this is likely where the confusion lies.

In America, end punctuation goes inside the quotes. In England, outside.

cornflake said:

In America, end punctuation goes inside the quotes. In England, outside.

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Actually, I'm not sure that's true. For spoken quotations, I'd venture the convention is the same on both sides of the pond: punctuation mark inside the quotation mark.* The quotation mark, of course, being a single rather than double, mark. I just checked a couple of books printed in the U.K., and that does seem to be the convention.

For non-spoken words set off in quotes for emphasis or whatever, the convention varies, as you indicate. In the U.S., the punctuation goes inside, in the U.K., outside. This involves commas and other punctuation marks, as well as the period.**

caw

* Which, perversely, are called "inverted commas" in the U.K.

** Which, perversely, is called a "full stop: in the U.K.

blacbird said:

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. For spoken quotations, I'd venture the convention is the same on both sides of the pond: punctuation mark inside the quotation mark.* The quotation mark, of course, being a single rather than double, mark. I just checked a couple of books printed in the U.K., and that does seem to be the convention.

For non-spoken words set off in quotes for emphasis or whatever, the convention varies, as you indicate. In the U.S., the punctuation goes inside, in the U.K., outside. This involves commas and other punctuation marks, as well as the period.**

caw

* Which, perversely, are called "inverted commas" in the U.K.

** Which, perversely, is called a "full stop: in the U.K.

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In UK we keep the punctuation inside the quotes. A more efficient way to write this might be:
'We're out of coffee,' the waitress said. Then all hell broke loose.
???
My publisher keeps telling me to use minimal commas. he also is pretty insistent on leaving out commas before 'and'.
I suspect it's all variable depending on your editor.

TellMeAStory said:

I was just told this, in reference to writing in America. If true, that would mean that instead of writing

The waitress said, "We're out of coffee," and all hell broke loose.

I should write

The waitress said. "We're out of coffee," and all hell broke loose.

This makes no sense to me. What do you say?

Click to expand...

Nope, in the US, you'd write it the first way. Commas after the dialog tag, not periods.

You may be confusing it with the rule for periods at the end of sentences inside quoted material.

In the US you always put periods and commas inside the quotes, even if they're not actually part of the quoted material. UK rules are more logical that way.

US: He always referred to my dog as "the brown rat."

UK: He always referred to my dog as "the brown rat".

Roxxsmom said:

UK rules are more logical that way.

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Whose definition of logic? The majority of U.S. publishers and printers following the stateside convention think the period inside the end quotation mark is plenty logical enough for them.

cornflake said:

I agree this is likely where the confusion lies.

In America, end punctuation goes inside the quotes. In England, outside.

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If you're punctuating speech, the end punctuation goes inside the quote-marks; if you're quoting someone else, the end punctuation goes inside the quote-marks if it's part of the quote, and outside if it's a mark you've added.

This is true across the whole of the UK, and not just in England.

blacbird said:

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. For spoken quotations, I'd venture the convention is the same on both sides of the pond: punctuation mark inside the quotation mark.* The quotation mark, of course, being a single rather than double, mark. I just checked a couple of books printed in the U.K., and that does seem to be the convention.

Click to expand...

There is a definite trend towards single quote-marks here, but that's more of a house style rather than a punctuation rule.

* Which, perversely, are called "inverted commas" in the U.K.

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They are. They are also referred to as quotation marks.

Fredrik Nath said:

My publisher keeps telling me to use minimal commas. he also is pretty insistent on leaving out commas before 'and'.
I suspect it's all variable depending on your editor.

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There are rules for every usage: what's variable is which rules you choose to follow.

The issue of the Oxford comma (that one which your publisher removes before "and") is hotly debated, but you do have to follow your publisher's house style.

Old Hack said:

If you're punctuating speech, the end punctuation goes inside the quote-marks; if you're quoting someone else, the end punctuation goes inside the quote-marks if it's part of the quote, and outside if it's a mark you've added.

This is true across the whole of the UK, and not just in England.



There is a definite trend towards single quote-marks here, but that's more of a house style rather than a punctuation rule.



They are. They are also referred to as quotation marks.



There are rules for every usage: what's variable is which rules you choose to follow.

The issue of the Oxford comma (that one which your publisher removes before "and") is hotly debated, but you do have to follow your publisher's house style.

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Actually, you can't win.
Reviewers on Amazon, whinge on about either too much punctuation or too little. Drives me daft!
Think you're right - if the publisher says - no commas then it's no commas.

Fredrik Nath said:

Actually, you can't win.
Reviewers on Amazon, whinge on about either too much punctuation or too little. Drives me daft!
Think you're right - if the publisher says - no commas then it's no commas.

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That's not actually the case. Or at least, it shouldn't be.

Publishers all have their own house styles. But if an author has good reasons to override their publisher's editing suggestions, including those made to correspond to house style, then the author's preferences should be followed. It's the author's name on the book: it's their writing, not the publisher's.

TellMeAStory said:

How about in this instance:

"Please sit," she said, "and this time I mean it."

vs.

"Please sit." she said, "And this time I mean it."

Do I HAVE to put a period after "sit," as I'm told? It seems clunky to me.

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Or course not. The first version is just fine.

TellMeAStory said:

How about in this instance:

"Please sit," she said, "and this time I mean it."

vs.

"Please sit." she said, "And this time I mean it."

Do I HAVE to put a period after "sit," as I'm told? It seems clunky to me.

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The first option is fine. The second has three errors, and should be:

"Please sit," she said. "And this time, I mean it."

Basically, you can either write it as one sentence or two, but you have to punctuate it accordingly.

TellMeAStory said:

How about in this instance:

"Please sit," she said, "and this time I mean it."

vs.

"Please sit." she said, "And this time I mean it."

Do I HAVE to put a period after "sit," as I'm told? It seems clunky to me.

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If the spoken words are:

Please sit, and this time I mean it.

the dialogue would be written:

"Please sit," she said, "and this time I mean it."

If the spoken words are:

Please sit. And this time I mean it.

the dialogue would be written:

"Please sit," she said. "And this time I mean it."

Fredrik Nath said:

Actually, you can't win.
Reviewers on Amazon, whinge on about either too much punctuation or too little. Drives me daft!
Think you're right - if the publisher says - no commas then it's no commas.

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Why would anyone pay attention to what a reviewer on Amazon says? There is no such thing as too much or too little punctuation, there's only correct and incorrect punctuation.

Jamesaritchie said:

Why would anyone pay attention to what a reviewer on Amazon says? There is no such thing as too much or too little punctuation, there's only correct and incorrect punctuation.

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The reviewer claimed to be a an English teacher.
Maybe I should be more confident???

I could claim to be an astronaut in an Amazon review. It wouldn't make that true.

Be more confident, Fredrik. (And try to use only one question-mark instead of three!)

TellMeAStory said:

How about in this instance:

"Please sit," she said, "and this time I mean it."

vs.

"Please sit." she said, "And this time I mean it."

Do I HAVE to put a period after "sit," as I'm told? It seems clunky to me.

Click to expand...

The best advice I've ever heard about dialogue punctuation is that if you remove the " marks the sentence should still make sense.

In this case you link the dialogue to a dialogue tag rather than action, which means the full stop for Please sit (or comma, you could have either) goes after the sit to link the she said as dialogue. If you did is as an action you could have this punctuation eg:

"Please sit." She took a slug of coffee and said, "And this time I mean it."

But that's clunky. With an action I'd go:

"Please sit." She took a slug of coffee. "And this time I mean it."

Or

"Please sit," she said. "And this time I mean it."

At a push you could also have, depending on the cadence of the sentence:

"Please sit," she said, "and this time I mean it."

But the key is where you're ending the first sentence ie before the linked tag.

Old Hack said:

I could claim to be an astronaut in an Amazon review. It wouldn't make that true.

Be more confident, Fredrik. (And try to use only one question-mark instead of three!)

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I thought you were an astronaut.
Actually, in my professional life I am ultra-confident.
In the writing world, I don't have the same kind of confidence because of inexperience maybe.
I do know though how much I had to learn about writing, publishing editing etc. when I started - it was like being a child trying to walk at six months of age.

Fredrik Nath said:

I thought you were an astronaut.

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I wish.

Actually, in my professional life I am ultra-confident.
In the writing world, I don't have the same kind of confidence because of inexperience maybe.
I do know though how much I had to learn about writing, publishing editing etc. when I started - it was like being a child trying to walk at six months of age.

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It's a steep learning-curve, isn't it?

I'm glad you're acknowledging how much there is to learn. I've encountered so many people who assume it's all so simple; it's especially bad when people who don't know about publishing decide to set up shop as publishers and insist they know enough to do it well. I can see where they're going to go wrong, but they just don't understand what the problem is. And they take their writers down with them. It's all so sad.

Only a fool takes up something new with no experience of it and imagines he can build an empire from the dust of his ignorance.
Fingerpress are a good company but like I said in that thread, I'm biased.