The speech of ancient beings

amergina

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This came to my attention again recently, so I wanted to throw the question out there.

There seems to be a trope in fantasy/paranormal romance that ancient beings (such as vampires) speak in "formal English". And by formally, this seems to mean that they don't use contractions. Ever.

Why?

The reason I ask is that these ancient beings are also usually pretty darn intelligent and you'd think they'd figure out the whole contractions-in-English thing, especially since they can often speak a bunch of languages fluently.

Human languages, in general, are prone to contractions and shortenings, etc.

(Did you see what I did there?)

Also, when did "not using contractions" become functionally equivalent to "speaking formally"? There are many other indications of formality other than lack of contractions. Seems to me word choice and sentence structure might be more indicative than lack of contractions.

So, what's so special about contractions in English? Why can't ancient beings (and futuristic androids) figure them out? And why are lack of contractions a code for "formal English" anyway?

(And aren't ancient beings capable of code-switching anyway?)

Anyone else bothered by this? Could be that I'm just...weird. :tongue
 

NRoach

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It's more that the contractions are dropped as a way of demonstrating that the character is speaking differently. It's a fairly effective way of showing that they're taking slightly more care than normal, or that they're not as used to the language as others.
Similarly, he that speaketh in the most antique of manners, is to be mocked. For he showeth in the clearest of lights, that his author knoweth nothing of the art that is is moderation. If thee findest thyself writing a character in such a way, I would suggest that thee strugglest through the works of the bard.

I'm curious to know how you'd feel about it being taken the other way, though. I've played for a while with an idea that involved two characters, from different planets, speaking two noticeable different forms of English. Both would be intelligible to actual English speakers, and obvious the characters would understand one another.
 

Filigree

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I avoid the contraction /no contraction debate in my work, but I do have some very ancient beings in my work. Depending how aware they are of 'current' linguistic drift, they may speak a little more formally. There's also extreme class divides in some of my cultures, where someone of a higher caste might speak more formally to a member of a lower caste.

Most of the time, my immortals mimic the mortal speech they hear. Sonic speech is a total construct to creatures that normally communicate in gamma bursts.
 

kuwisdelu

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I figured ancient beings would talk in dreams and visions.

Either that or just speak normally.
 

Polenth

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In the game Secret World, ancient beings always spoke in formal British accents, even if everyone else was American. It doesn't make much sense, no. You'd think they'd have picked up more than that. I don't buy the argument that they'd be less familiar with modern English in most cases, given that modern English has been around longer than I've been alive.

Though it would be funny if they were a bit vague on what's still current slang. "That's totally wizard!"
 

King Neptune

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It depends on where they are from. The apparent homeland of vampires seems to be Lithuania, because there are more vampires there than in other areas. For that reason one can expect them to retain some of the forms from their original language, and that might seem formal to native speakers of English. We can also blame the people who taught them English.
 

benbenberi

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There are Lithuanian vampires??? That's an awful long way from Transylvania...
 

jjdebenedictis

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In the game Secret World, ancient beings always spoke in formal British accents, even if everyone else was American.
I have reflected on the fact that, at some point, the American accent must have (mostly) been a British accent. An immigrant doesn't arrive with a southern drawl, for example, and even their kids will retain a bit of of the parents' manner of speaking.

So, maybe, I could buy into older beings (but perhaps not ancient ones) speaking with the accent they grew up with, even as the accent of the people they live among begins to shift.

Utterly beside-the-point, barely-related tangent: I remember watching a television show once where two brothers were being played by actors with noticeably different accents. As in, slightly-Boston and less-slightly-Texan.

You have to wonder a little at the casting decisions some people make. Or at least at the wisdom of the show runners, given that no one sidled over to either actor and said, "Hey, could you tweak your vowels a little?"
 
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King Neptune

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There are Lithuanian vampires??? That's an awful long way from Transylvania...

No, it's only a few hundred miles. They probably went there to escape oppression, being hunted down.

If you search for information on Lithuanian vampires, then you will find extensive information. I have known sane, intelligent, adult Lithuanians who knew with confidence that there were vampires in Lithuania, but I quickly learned that it is better to avoid the subject, because they become upset.

Lithuanian vampire forum
http://vampforum.vampire-legend.net/
 
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King Neptune

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I'm with Kuwis, vampires as we think of them now weren't around before the ancient ones. There were vampire like creatures, but not actual modern vampires.

Modern vampires are quite modern, but vampires have been around for many hundreds of years and probably a few thousand years. There are vampire stories from many nations and periods. If you limit vampires to Bram Stoker and later, then you will miss most of them.
 

kuwisdelu

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Modern vampires are quite modern, but vampires have been around for many hundreds of years and probably a few thousand years. There are vampire stories from many nations and periods. If you limit vampires to Bram Stoker and later, then you will miss most of them.

Vampires ain't gonna be older than the people who tell their stories, though. ;)

Though sometimes I wonder why people try to see the vampire in any ancient story about beings remotely similar.

Can't they be their own beings? Why do we have to read vampires into everything?
 

King Neptune

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kuwisdelu

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Yes, and things invented in the 20th century certainly do not predate the Anasazi.

Here's a vampire story from 11th century India, origin probably older
http://books.google.com/books/about/King_Vikram_and_the_Vampire.html?id=B2sB3pmtri4C

I think I want to find a copy of this.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/pgn/summary/v025/25.2.davidson.html

And there are more.

See:

Though sometimes I wonder why people try to see the vampire in any ancient story about beings remotely similar.

Can't they be their own beings? Why do we have to read vampires into everything?

This actually goes back to ancient beings speaking formal English.

I can't help but find it unimaginative to view everything through a modern Western lens.

I think that's what both of these things are doing.
 
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King Neptune

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Vampires ain't gonna be older than the people who tell their stories, though. ;)

Though sometimes I wonder why people try to see the vampire in any ancient story about beings remotely similar.

Can't they be their own beings? Why do we have to read vampires into everything?

Are you suggesting that vampires started with Bram Stoker, or what? There were ancient vampire stories. The stories from Eastern Europe were written several hundred years ago, and the stories go back some time before that.

I would prefer to delete all vampire stories written since about 1900.
 

kuwisdelu

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Are you suggesting that vampires started with Bram Stoker, or what? There were ancient vampire stories. The stories from Eastern Europe were written several hundred years ago, and the stories go back some time before that.

I would prefer to delete all vampire stories written since about 1900.

I'm asking why we call beings from completely different times and places and from different cultures stemming from different influences by the same name. The same could be said of other creatures like dragons.

It's an interesting phenomenon in fantasy fandom. Readers will often criticize how someone's portraying vampires "wrong" or that something is a wyvern rather than a dragon. Yet those same readers will then go and look at stories from other cultures and see surface similarities and decide that they're also versions of the same creature from Western stories, without always considering the narrative and cultural differences.

Edit: I'm not totally sure how we got here, but I'm developing some interesting thoughts now. Thank you. The power of how we name things and group them together is something that's been gnawing at me for a while now.
 
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Lillith1991

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Modern vampires are quite modern, but vampires have been around for many hundreds of years and probably a few thousand years. There are vampire stories from many nations and periods. If you limit vampires to Bram Stoker and later, then you will miss most of them.

Which is why I specificly said vampire like creatures. Many cultures have creatures that drink blood as part of their mythology, and so did many ancient ones. That blood drinking is a vampiric trait does not make such creatures vampires.
 
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King Neptune

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I'm asking why we call beings from completely different times and places and from different cultures stemming from different influences by the same name. The same could be said of other creatures like dragons.

That is a good question. Are you suggesting that the recent type vampires should be called something els? Personally, I find traditional Eastern European vampires more interesting.

It's an interesting phenomenon in fantasy fandom. Readers will often criticize how someone's portraying vampires "wrong" or that something is a wyvern rather than a dragon. Yet those same readers will then go and look at stories from other cultures and see surface similarities and decide that they're also versions of the same creature from Western stories, without always considering the narrative and cultural differences.

Edit: I'm not totally sure how we got here, but I'm developing some interesting thoughts now. Thank you. The power of how we name things and group them together is something that's been gnawing at me for a while now.[/QUOTE]

Goo.

There are very good reasons why there are dragons all around the world, but not all of them should to called dragons. The original names in other languages and traditions would be better.
 

kuwisdelu

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That is a good question. Are you suggesting that the recent type vampires should be called something els? Personally, I find traditional Eastern European vampires more interesting.

No, I'm saying that calling the more ancient beings, for example, from Babylonian legend, "vampire" is reductionist.

Aren't modern vampires heavily influenced by traditional Eastern European vampires?