The speech of ancient beings

kuwisdelu

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Or maybe it's just that there are a lot of folks around nowadays who love the "modern" version of vampires and want to stick them in Ancient China, or the European Renaissance, or South/Central America (where the bats that were named for the mythic creature actually live).

Yeah, I think we have a tendency to look at other stories through the lens of our own stories.

It's good and interesting to look for similarities between stories across the world, but I think sometimes we tend to overemphasize those parts which feel familiar and lose some of the magic that exists in what makes other stories unique and different.

I was reading about re-tellings of Native American stories packaged as children's books by non-Natives the other night, and — while not really factually inaccurate — many of the re-tellings overemphasized the similarities to Western fairy tales, which often subtly changed the whole meaning and point of the story.

When we call two things by the same name, we are equating them in some manner, saying they have the same essence. Sometimes we do that without really thinking about it, and in doing so accidentally erase the original thing. That can be especially problematic when we do it across cultures.

I was a bit bored with vampires, actually, even before they started to sparkle. I actually enjoy some of the older myths and legends and think it would be fun if the stories take the twist that it's the modern version on some popular monster that's inaccurate or fanciful.

In general, I'm not a great fan of calling interpretations "inaccurate". When different versions come from similar influences, I prefer to think of them as each being accurate in different ways.

In oral tradition, there is often a recognition that other versions of the same tale are told, without denigrating their truth, while in written accounts, it feels like differing versions tend to vie for accuracy.

I prefer it when no one has to be wrong for two people(s) to be right. :)
 

virtue_summer

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There seems to be a trope in fantasy/paranormal romance that ancient beings (such as vampires) speak in "formal English". And by formally, this seems to mean that they don't use contractions. Ever.

Why?
Could it be tied to the fact that ancient beings are often associated with the aristocracy and that this leads to the association with formality? As for why they drop contractions specifically, I'm not sure, but maybe it has to do with how people are sometimes taught not to use contractions in formal writing and they carry that idea over to speaking.
 

Lillith1991

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Yeah, I think we have a tendency to look at other stories through the lens of our own stories.

It's good and interesting to look for similarities between stories across the world, but I think sometimes we tend to overemphasize those parts which feel familiar and lose some of the magic that exists in what makes other stories unique and different.

I was reading about re-tellings of Native American stories packaged as children's books by non-Natives the other night, and — while not really factually inaccurate — many of the re-tellings overemphasized the similarities to Western fairy tales, which often subtly changed the whole meaning and point of the story.

When we call two things by the same name, we are equating them in some manner, saying they have the same essence. Sometimes we do that without really thinking about it, and in doing so accidentally erase the original thing. That can be especially problematic when we do it across cultures.

(Cut for space.)

I prefer it when no one has to be wrong for two people(s) to be right. :)

And this is how we end up with Quileute werewolves. I'm still convinced Meyer knew what she was doing with that one and just didn't care enough to do proper research.
 

E.F.B.

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No idea, and I agree with you here also. Generally, speaking without contractions indicates that someone is being emphatic rather than formal. Or maybe they're still learning the language and aren't completely comfortable with its usage.

Someone saying, "I will not do it," conjures up a different feel than someone saying, "I won't do it."

I agree.

Nope. It just feels like lazy bad writing to me if it's simply being done to indicate formality, old-fashioned speech, or a high level of education or something like that.

I did read a novel once where the main character spoke without contractions, but she was supposed to be uncomfortable with the language. I read another where the character was autistic and not using them was one of his quirks (both were first person narratives so the lack of contractions was in the narrative too). It worked, and the writers in each case were skilled enough that I got used to it after a while. But most of the time, prolonged and persistent contractionless speech (and in more modern novels that are written in anything approaching a character pov, completely contractionless narrative as well) makes me want to chuck the book across the room.

When I first joined AW I had started a thread on a similar topic after writing a scene in my WIP where characters that lived in the ancient past didn't use any contractions because, being a new writer, I mistakenly thought it made them sound more old-fashioned. I have no clue how I got that idea in my head, but it seems to be a common misconception anymore. However, everyone who replied (including yourself, Roxxsmom;)) helped convince me that a lack of contractions can be infuriating to a reader. Someone even said that it makes them want to go out and throw rocks at cars. Well, not wanting my writing to cause people to throw books or damage cars, I rewrote the scene and guess what? I discovered that I liked the dialogue WAY better when I included contractions and found other, better ways to make the characters feel old-fashioned.:D

Now it makes me pull my hair out when I see other people excluding contractions in an attempt to sound formal or old-fashioned.
 

Lillith1991

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Now it makes me pull my hair out when I see other people excluding contractions in an attempt to sound formal or old-fashioned.

I also think it depends on the character. Examples from some of my favorite scifi shows, Spock rarely if ever uses them. T'Pol from Star Trek: Enterprise on the other hand uses them when they would be more efficient. I think it can be done but has to fit the character it's being applied to.
 

snafu1056

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Dont forget Asians. Asian characters, for some bizarre reason, never use contractions either. Cuz apparently every single person in Asia is wise.
 

kuwisdelu

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Dont forget Asians. Asian characters, for some bizarre reason, never use contractions either. Cuz apparently every single person in Asia is wise.

And the wise American Indians don't even use articles or contractions.
 

Roxxsmom

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Yeah, I think we have a tendency to look at other stories through the lens of our own stories.

It's good and interesting to look for similarities between stories across the world, but I think sometimes we tend to overemphasize those parts which feel familiar and lose some of the magic that exists in what makes other stories unique and different.

I was reading about re-tellings of Native American stories packaged as children's books by non-Natives the other night, and — while not really factually inaccurate — many of the re-tellings overemphasized the similarities to Western fairy tales, which often subtly changed the whole meaning and point of the story.

I can totally see how this would happen, even if it's not something I'd notice as much until it's pointed out to me.

YWhen we call two things by the same name, we are equating them in some manner, saying they have the same essence. Sometimes we do that without really thinking about it, and in doing so accidentally erase the original thing. That can be especially problematic when we do it across cultures.



In general, I'm not a great fan of calling interpretations "inaccurate". When different versions come from similar influences, I prefer to think of them as each being accurate in different ways.

In oral tradition, there is often a recognition that other versions of the same tale are told, without denigrating their truth, while in written accounts, it feels like differing versions tend to vie for accuracy.

I prefer it when no one has to be wrong for two people(s) to be right. :)

That's a nice way to look at it.

I have to say, I was skimming the back of a novel a while ago. I do have a fondness for secondary world fantasy set in a quasi fairy tale setting. It was that sort of book (with wizards and princes and goblins and so on), but something seemed off. It also had vampires (of the Dracula persuasion). That did seem rather off to me in a "classic" fantasy type novel.

I put the book back on the shelf for now at least. I don't know whether said vampires spoke with contractions or not :)

As for why they drop contractions specifically, I'm not sure, but maybe it has to do with how people are sometimes taught not to use contractions in formal writing and they carry that idea over to speaking.

An interesting hypothesis. I actually swapped crits with someone who, it turned out, strongly believed that contractions have no place in narrative, even in fiction, and even in character-driven povs like first or limited third. He ripped my manuscript, where the narrative is more or less written in the same way the pov character speaks (contractions galore), and I ripped his because there were no contractions at all in his first person narrative.

He insisted that's what his teachers taught him in school back in the day, but he's younger than I am, and I certainly don't remember my English teachers forbidding contractions, even in expository writing. They merely told us to consider the voice and tone we were going for. In any case, I have trouble believing his teachers meant for him to exclude contractions from fictional narrative, especially when writing in first person.

It was also one of those "don't you actually read any novels?" moments, because a quick trip to my bookshelves indicates than nearly every novel there (with the exception of some older ones written in omniscient third) has contractions in the narrative.
 
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King Neptune

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What?

Seriously? Human anatomy isn't changed by speaking a particular language, just like reading in the dark doesn't damage your eyes.

And I certainly hope you aren't implying that someone's race affects their ability to form sounds. If that was what you were implying, then how do you explain all the people in my city whose genetics come from China, or Europe, or India but who all speak English with exactly the same accent?

Anatomy isn't changed by speaking a given language, but vampires are a different breed. In addition to their metabolism being a little different, the shapes of their mouths is a little different.
 
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xC0000005

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To answer the original question - in my most recent book, the "big bad evil" speaks in exactly the way you've mentioned - no contractions. She also uses direct address (the person's full name). There are three reasons I did it:
1. It makes her dialogue stand out to the reader - I never had any questions from crit partners or betas about who was speaking.
2. I work with a team of people from China, India, South America and the Middle East. I've noticed that new speakers don't tend to use contractions at first. My big bad is a new English speaker - she has had very little reason to learn or use it. She's smart but not "hyper intelligent."
3. I modeled her direct address habits on the linguistic patterns of the people I work with from that region. That is, she sounds like they sound when speaking English. Originally I had her speech much more distinct, but the reader feedback I got was that they simply wanted cues as to who was who, not to be beat over the head with it.
 

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I have reflected on the fact that, at some point, the American accent must have (mostly) been a British accent.

I read something recently that said it may actually be the other way around, that the modern British accent (yes, I know there are many varieties) evolved after the War of Independence and that some forms of the modern American accent (also varied) are closer to what the English spoke then.

Speaking to the original question -- too many contractions might lead to speech that sounds too modern and too casual, so that's why writers tend to avoid them. But maybe the answer to making ancient (or whoever) beings seem, well, ancient, is syntax, word choice, and idiom.
 
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I read something recently that said it may actually be the other way around, that the modern British accent (yes, I know there are many varieties) evolved after the War of Independence and that some forms of the modern American accent (also varied) are closer to what the English spoke then.

Having heard the (alleged) original pronunciation of Shakespeare, which sounds decidedly Yorkshire/Scottish to my ears, I'm not entirely sure if I could buy that. I guess I could for RP, but that's as much an English accent as the stereotypical Louisiana drawl is an American one.
 

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I also think it depends on the character. Examples from some of my favorite scifi shows, Spock rarely if ever uses them. T'Pol from Star Trek: Enterprise on the other hand uses them when they would be more efficient. I think it can be done but has to fit the character it's being applied to.

That sounds logical to me.:D
 

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ANatomy isn't changed byt speaking a given language, but vampires are a different breed. In addition to their metabloism being a little different, the shapes of their mouths is a little different.

Because of those pesky fangs and the need to suck blood :D

Now I could get on board with a vampire that has a proboscis of some kind. That would certainly alter its speech.
 

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Because of those pesky fangs and the need to suck blood :D

Now I could get on board with a vampire that has a proboscis of some kind. That would certainly alter its speech.

Give them a slightly more inconspicuous variant of an assassin bug's foldable stiletto, and you've got the stuff of nightmares right there!

320px-Assassin_bug_aug08_02.jpg

File:Assassin_bug_aug08_02.jpg
 

King Neptune

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Because of those pesky fangs and the need to suck blood :D

Now I could get on board with a vampire that has a proboscis of some kind. That would certainly alter its speech.

The tongue and throat have a slightly different shape, and the muscles of the throat and mouth are quite different, becasue they are designed for sucking instead of chewing.
 

Korak_Karnar

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I have a WIP where there are sentient wolves that don't use contractions. My reasoning was more linguistic than age though. Their native language is not the native language of the main character. Even though the wolves are a large part of a tribe of humans who adopted the wolf language, the humans then blended it with their native tongue and changed it over time, whereas the wolves continue to use the older form since it's the "original".
So there's a few layers of why, in my reckoning. Also I may go back and change it later if it turns out too awkward, and find another way to convey it, like someone else mentioned earlier.
 

Levico

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I have a WIP where there are sentient wolves that don't use contractions. My reasoning was more linguistic than age though. Their native language is not the native language of the main character. Even though the wolves are a large part of a tribe of humans who adopted the wolf language, the humans then blended it with their native tongue and changed it over time, whereas the wolves continue to use the older form since it's the "original".
So there's a few layers of why, in my reckoning. Also I may go back and change it later if it turns out too awkward, and find another way to convey it, like someone else mentioned earlier.

This is actually a good point. Language barriers could invoke a use of 'proper' English, lending towards an ignorance of slang and common patterns of speech.
In my WIP's case, ancient beings didn't speak English. Thus the case above. Though, they do it with tact, using such things as 'cannot' and 'shall' as opposed to blatantly ignoring contradictions.
Anyway, do it wrong and it looks tacky as hell.