Things no one tells you...

Millions of people worldwide write novels every year.

The number of novels published with enough sales to actually be financially 'successful' is in the hundreds (or perhaps low thousands).

There isn't room for everyone.

You can be good and still not land an agent/publisher on your first, second, third, seventh try. You have to be way beyond good, lucky, or somehow ahead of the trend curve to actually get anywhere.

Try submitting some of your work to SYW, the folks there can generally point you in the right direction (write direction?) At least you'll get feedback for posting your work there (note, until you have 50 posts you can't start your own thread, but can post your first page in one of the '200 words or less' threads).

I think anything even remotely creative will put you in the same boat. Homer Simpson said it best: Trying leads to failure. So the lesson is, never try...

Seriously though, the things that you could do that wouldn't have you putting yourself out there like that, almost certainly wouldn't give you much in the way of payoff (emotionally or otherwise) if you succeeded.

Ringading said:

This is more of a rant/ me whining thing. I am writing it because I know a ton of people on this board understand what its like to feel like a huge failure.

I went to all the right colleges, got all the right degrees. Everything "the man" tells you to do to succeed. Then after giving birth to my first child, I found out I had lupus sle and APS. I was medically retired from the Air Force and I became a stay at home mother because sometimes all of my medications makes it impossible for me to do more than spend time with my face in the toilet bowl.

My husband, who is the most supportive man in the world, encouraged me to write rather than be miserable about how my life was thrown off track. With his encouragement, I started writing while my kids were at school.

But now I am coming to the point where I am wondering, what if I suck at writing? What if I can never be successful in the workplace or at home?

I am raising two beautiful, brilliant, and good kids. I support my husband who is gone with the military half the time. So I know I am not a complete failure.

However, this writing thing is not for those who need to feel a sense of accomplishment. I wish someone had warned me about all this. That you could spend countless hours pouring yourself into a novel, which becomes your baby. Then you hand your novel to someone, hoping they will even give you the time of day.

Long rant made short- I wish I had known that writing would make me question myself almost as much as being a parent does.

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Now that that is over with, you can dust yourself off and get back to work.

It feels good to get it off your chest, doesn't it.

I can't list all the bad things that have happened to me. I'd be here all day. And I KNOW what you mean about questioning yourself as a parent...but it's my belief that ALL the good parents know what you mean. When we are dedicated to doing everything right for our children, we second guess ourselves non-stop. That's the need to be perfect. Nobody's perfect, but self-doubt certainly goes a long way in making us improve. It holds us culpable, doesn't it? If we didn't care, we wouldn't worry about our skills as parents every minute of every hour of every day.

I'm so glad you equated your writing with your parenting skills. Because, in my humble opinion, it means you're hard on yourself to the point of holding yourself to high standards. This doesn't mean you will attain perfection. But it DOES mean you will self-improve while on your journey. If you thought you were a perfect writer, I'd hold no hope for you and I'd tell you to quit today.

Find fulfillment in completing tasks, not in attaining the NYT Bestseller List. You finish things. You edit things. You submit things...there's your sense of accomplishment right there.


Good luck.

I enjoy writing. At this point I consider it more of a relaxing hobby than a business pursuit with publication in mind.

At this stage in my life, I can't have it all so I don't try. I get my sense of accomplishment out of the writing process itself. It makes me happy to do it.

Drachen Jager said:

There isn't room for everyone.

You can be good and still not land an agent/publisher on your first, second, third, seventh try. You have to be way beyond good, lucky, or somehow ahead of the trend curve to actually get anywhere.


.

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There is always room for one more good novel. It's a complete myth that there isn't, or that "good" novels go unpublished. When this happens, It's pretty much always the writer's fault.

Publishers are begging for really good novels. Always have, always will. If a writer can write well enough, tell a story well enough, and create characters people want to spend time with, that writer does have a reserved parking space. The trouble is not lack of room, the trouble is lack of enough rally good novels.

Just wanted to say that your post was touching, and you're in a forum of folks who understand.

My WIP is my baby. It doesn't wriggle or wake up in the night nearly as much as my kid does, but it's still my baby. And much like with kids, I can't protect it from the real world (and deep down, I know I shouldn't).

Do you like writing? Do you feel like you are a good writer? Do you have confidence in your own work?

Don't let anyone else form your opinion of yourself as a writer.

And there's always more to learn.

Welcome.

Ringading said:

This is more of a rant/ me whining thing. I am writing it because I know a ton of people on this board understand what its like to feel like a huge failure.

I went to all the right colleges, got all the right degrees. Everything "the man" tells you to do to succeed. Then after giving birth to my first child, I found out I had lupus sle and APS. I was medically retired from the Air Force and I became a stay at home mother because sometimes all of my medications makes it impossible for me to do more than spend time with my face in the toilet bowl.

My husband, who is the most supportive man in the world, encouraged me to write rather than be miserable about how my life was thrown off track. With his encouragement, I started writing while my kids were at school.

But now I am coming to the point where I am wondering, what if I suck at writing? What if I can never be successful in the workplace or at home?

I am raising two beautiful, brilliant, and good kids. I support my husband who is gone with the military half the time. So I know I am not a complete failure.

However, this writing thing is not for those who need to feel a sense of accomplishment. I wish someone had warned me about all this. That you could spend countless hours pouring yourself into a novel, which becomes your baby. Then you hand your novel to someone, hoping they will even give you the time of day.

Long rant made short- I wish I had known that writing would make me question myself almost as much as being a parent does.

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I think anyone who can successfully raise kids is already a huge success.

As for writing, it's like any other business, and other profession. If you can create a product that enough people want, you will succeed. If you can't you won't.

What you can't do is let a novel become your "baby". It's not your baby. It's a product, and it's your first effort. That's all it is. It may be a great product, or it may be a lousy product, but it's still just a widget, a box of crackers, a new kind of toothpaste.

You have to let it go, and create one more product. Then one more. Even Michelangelo's first sculpture was good for nothing except pulverizing into gravel and spreading along a muddy road. I suspect Leonardo da Vinci's first attempt at a painting looked like a child drew it with a crayon.

Writing is for those who want a sense of accomplishment, but accomplishment must be earned by long, hard, repeated effort. If anyone could do it, there would be no sense of accomplishment.

Failure is most certainly possible. You may lack the talent, or the drive, or the dedication to succeed. Most do. But this novel is not your baby. It's just a first attempt at trying something new. Even if you have talent, it can take a while for skill to catch up. Some very famous writers had to write several novels before gaining the skill to write a good one, or before learning what kind of story to tell.

Even early success can mean little. Nora Roberts sold her first novel, but had to write eight more before selling a second. Now she's a multimillionaire.

Sometimes a first novel does sell, does even become a bestseller, but this is far from the norm. There's usually a learning curve, even if you have a ton of talent. You have to be in writing for the long haul, as something you keep doing until you get it right. Or realize it just isn't for you.

The good news is that it doesn't matter how many other writers there are, or how good they are. You don't have to be better than anyone else, you just have to be good enough to make an editor think readers will buy your novel. If you are, if you tell a story readers want to read, and create characters readers want to spend time with, there is a place for your novel with a top publisher.

But you can't think of any novel as your baby. Particularly your first. It's just a product you create, and that you run up the flag pole to see how many will salute it. Then you crate another, and another, and another, until you create one that everyone salutes.

Love writing, not instant gratification. Love the journey, not the destination. Keep writing, keep improving, learn what kind of stories and characters editors want, and give it to them.

I just wanted to tease the resident curmudgeon and say that a novel can certainly be your baby. The baby you pimp out to the world in little sparkly talent shows (wince) and sharpen like the fine point of a blade until it glimmers in the public spotlight.

Okay, that came out a very weird double comparison. To try again, I'm saying that you can love it, you can pour yourself into it, then you can take a step back and work on making it better, stronger, more marketable. Let critiques make you a better writer, and let them make your work stronger.

But you can still love your work, even if your goal is to sell it.

My first novel was my baby. I spent so many long hours working on it, I had such high hopes for what my baby would one day become. But I knew I couldn't do it alone, so I sent my baby to a freelance editor. Several long months later, she sent it back with comments throughout and a whole separate document of overarching changes to consider. It took me another month or two to even work up the courage too look at the editor's comments. When I finally did, each one was a stab that made me feel like a failure as a writer. I put that baby away, made myself a strong drink, and started my next book.

My second book was also my baby, and I spent even more time on it. But after a few rounds of self-editing, the second book started to turn into a product. Time away from the novel helps with that transformation. Book three turned into a product even more quickly.

My books all start as my babies, but I've changed from that first-time mother who hovers and worries and goes on alert at every little thing to one who nurtures, then steps back. I'm proud that I've created this thing and I can point at it and tell people, "You see that? It has me in it."

Sometimes it's good enough to finish something. Some mornings I feel accomplished just by rolling out of bed on time. But if you want people to point at your book (or your invention, painting, trained poodle) and say, "Look at all she's accomplished!" there will always be the long slog. Sometimes finishing another day of slog is all it takes to make me feel accomplished.

lottarobyn said:

My first novel was my baby. I spent so many long hours working on it, I had such high hopes for what my baby would one day become. But I knew I couldn't do it alone, so I sent my baby to a freelance editor. Several long months later, she sent it back with comments throughout and a whole separate document of overarching changes to consider. It took me another month or two to even work up the courage too look at the editor's comments. When I finally did, each one was a stab that made me feel like a failure as a writer. I put that baby away, made myself a strong drink, and started my next book.

My second book was also my baby, and I spent even more time on it. But after a few rounds of self-editing, the second book started to turn into a product. Time away from the novel helps with that transformation. Book three turned into a product even more quickly.

My books all start as my babies, but I've changed from that first-time mother who hovers and worries and goes on alert at every little thing to one who nurtures, then steps back. I'm proud that I've created this thing and I can point at it and tell people, "You see that? It has me in it."

Sometimes it's good enough to finish something. Some mornings I feel accomplished just by rolling out of bed on time. But if you want people to point at your book (or your invention, painting, trained poodle) and say, "Look at all she's accomplished!" there will always be the long slog. Sometimes finishing another day of slog is all it takes to make me feel accomplished.

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That's a great way to look at it. I can totally relate with the *hovering* mother stage - with kids and books - and how that changes as you keep writing (and keep having kids).

I loved the other thoughts in this thread as well. Need to come back to this in the future when the accomplishments feel a little thin and far apart.

Jamesaritchie said:

There is always room for one more good novel. It's a complete myth that there isn't, or that "good" novels go unpublished. When this happens, It's pretty much always the writer's fault.

Publishers are begging for really good novels. Always have, always will. If a writer can write well enough, tell a story well enough, and create characters people want to spend time with, that writer does have a reserved parking space. The trouble is not lack of room, the trouble is lack of enough rally good novels.

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Highlighting mine.

You corrected me, then went on to demonstrate how I was right all along. You do that on purpose, don't you?

Drachen Jager said:

Highlighting mine.

You corrected me, then went on to demonstrate how I was right all along. You do that on purpose, don't you?

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Sometimes. But the fact remains, there is room for as many writer as there are out there, if they can write well enough to make readers want their stories. Publishing is like an inverted pyramid. The choke point for writers is at the bottom of the pyramid, not at the top. There's very, very little room down there at the bottom, but there's infinite room at the top.

It's all about the individual writer, his talent and skill level, his dedication and drive, not about how many millions are also trying.

And, really, if you can't write a really good novel, then why would you want it published?

Ringading said:

But now I am coming to the point where I am wondering, what if I suck at writing?

However, this writing thing is not for those who need to feel a sense of accomplishment. I wish someone had warned me about all this. That you could spend countless hours pouring yourself into a novel, which becomes your baby. Then you hand your novel to someone, hoping they will even give you the time of day.

Long rant made short- I wish I had known that writing would make me question myself almost as much as being a parent does.

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The best piece of advice I've ever picked up from these forums is to allow your writing to suck.

Whether we admit it or not, that's where most of us probably start out. If you have the mindset that your writing is terrible, but you're willing to work at it and willing to learn what you can, you'll get better.

Learning to write is a tough thing and not for the faint of heart.

My first few drafts of my current WIP were *masterpiece* quality, or so I thought. It wasn't until I realized how terrible they were that I began to truly learn. After completely trashing my WIP, each successive draft has taken steps forward. I'm still not there yet, but my progression keeps me sane.

One day, maybe, I won't be so terrible.

Best of luck. If you don't stick with it, you'll never know how good you can be.

There is always room for one more good novel. It's a complete myth that there isn't, or that "good" novels go unpublished. When this happens, It's pretty much always the writer's fault.

Publishers are begging for really good novels. Always have, always will. If a writer can write well enough, tell a story well enough, and create characters people want to spend time with, that writer does have a reserved parking space. The trouble is not lack of room, the trouble is lack of enough rally good novels.

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I hear that a lot. You know who I hear it the most from? Moderately successful authors who have been published. I don't hear it from superstar authors -- they re almost uniform in saying that luck and perseverance were key in their success.

I've never heard an agent say it -- they are usually pretty clear in saying that a work just isn't for them, but it might be for someone else. I've never read a publisher say it -- in fact, there's plenty of evidence of it taking a very long time for a book to find the right editor and the right house. And I've damn sure never heard unpublished writers say it unless they are quoting the moderately successful speaker at their conference who said it like a mantra.

In fact, there are very few examples of a debut novel getting immediately sold to great success. It almost always takes someone a long time to get in. It takes finding the right agent on the right day, who takes it to the right editor at the right time.

But at every writer's conference I've ever been to -- and on almost every writing blog/forum out there -- that's something that keeps popping up. Someone with some moderate level of credential says that if the book is good enough, it'll get published and if it's not published, it means the book isn't good enough. Now I don't know whether that's to encourage writers to try to keep becoming better writers or whether it's a level of self-validation -- good writers get published, I am published therefore I must be a good writer and the inverse; good writers get published, you are not published therefore you must not be a good writer.

Now that may be true -- a lot of writers may indeed suck. But just saying it ignores all the vagrancies of this process. Agents are gatekeepers so you must appeal to them, the only way to appeal to them is by reducing your manuscript to 200 or so working words. You've got to be what they are looking for, you've got to catch them at a time they're taking on new clients. Then past that, they've got to find the right editor whose a) likes it, too and b) has room on their list. And then in many cases that editor has to convince a board of the marketability of it the same book.

There's a lot that has to go down in just the right way for a book to be bought, and just saying that it's a matter of being good enough is rather insulting. A book does have to be good enough to be published, but just being good enough does not assure a damn thing, and saying that the only reason books don't get published are because they aren't good enough ignores all the other factors that go into this process.

In addition, there is no "good enough" plateau for writing. I don't like Stephen King -- if I had been an editor, he wouldn't have clicked with me and I would have likely passed like so many did. It's all subjective, and if a writer believes in his work, then they owe it to themselves to pursue publication with all the effort they have. Because, in reality, they only have to convince one agent that it's good enough, and that agent only has to convince one editor that it's good enough, and then the publisher has to convince each individual reader it's good enough. There's no universality in any of it, and it does a disservice to insinuate there is.

As a SAHM myself, I understand the NEED (not want but NEED) for more fulfillment. Your kids can be wonderful, your husband can be the "best"... but at some point you are left with just yourself. That is when the doubt can creep in. Don't let it! Forget the "man" and what he said you should do... remember you write for YOU! Hold on to that... and by extension your sanity. Everything works out in its own time.

whiporee said:

There's a lot that has to go down in just the right way for a book to be bought, and just saying that it's a matter of being good enough is rather insulting. A book does have to be good enough to be published, but just being good enough does not assure a damn thing, and saying that the only reason books don't get published are because they aren't good enough ignores all the other factors that go into this process.

In addition, there is no "good enough" plateau for writing. I don't like Stephen King -- if I had been an editor, he wouldn't have clicked with me and I would have likely passed like so many did. It's all subjective, and if a writer believes in his work, then they owe it to themselves to pursue publication with all the effort they have. Because, in reality, they only have to convince one agent that it's good enough, and that agent only has to convince one editor that it's good enough, and then the publisher has to convince each individual reader it's good enough. There's no universality in any of it, and it does a disservice to insinuate there is.

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I agree. Yes, work that gets published obviously has reached a certain standard of competence. Many people have deemed it both readable and marketable, enough to put money on the line. That's huge.

But I've read a handful of self-published books I thought were quite good. Some books are beautifully written, but have a long-winded style or leisurely pacing that just doesn't sell today. Some books might have had a better chance if their author had graduated from the right MFA program and had the right contacts. Some books come at the tail-end of a hot trend and are rejected because of their premise alone (right now, it doesn't seem to matter how "good" your YA dystopian is, though that could change next week or next month).

I'm not suggesting that the "gatekeepers" don't know what they're doing, or anything of the sort. But, like all of us, they have personal tastes and market-driven needs. It stands to reason that some "good" books will fall through the cracks, if you define "good" in the broadest possible sense (somebody out there who's not related to the author finds the book both readable and enjoyable). Even if you define "good" only in a "good for the market" sense, there's evidence that self-published titles can serve a market niche and sell well.

I used to torture myself with the question: If you're a good writer, even potentially a good writer, why do you keep getting rejected? That was pointless. I started looking at what did succeed in the marketplace and trying to work out a compromise between what I wanted my work to be and what the market wanted. I fiddled around, experimented and learned to tell a story better.

I've concluded that writing is not like school, where you can get all As and be valedictorian and everyone acknowledges your brilliance. It's more like improv comedy. You try something, it doesn't work; you try something else, maybe it does work. Maybe one person hates it, but that doesn't matter because somebody else loves it.

But you have to stay in the game: getting feedback, applying it, learning, connecting with your potential audience. It's tiring, but it's also fun.

Ringading, your story made my heart ache at the amount of shit that life has thrown at you. I'm really glad that you have such a great support system and I'm very happy that you give yourself credit for having raised awesome kids. You're definitely not a failure.

As for the writing...well, fwiw, I'm agented and I STILL have that feeling of "What am I doing wasting my time writing, I'm such a shitty writer, I'm just kidding myself". I think that for many of us, that feeling will always come and go and never entirely leave. And that's okay. I call it my Inner Editor, and she's a total penis. Whenever she starts talking, I put my hands over my ears and go LALALALA. I really do that. Mr. Putt is used to it by now.

Also, judging by your post, you CAN write. Spend some time hanging out here. Make a few friends, and hopefully a few beta readers. By having people critique your work and critiquing their work in return, you can only grow as a writer.

Good luck!

Jamesaritchie said:

It's a complete myth that . . . "good" novels go unpublished.

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Consider that this also means the only way to judge if a novel is "good" is that it does, indeed, get published. Circularity in logic is such a fine thing.

caw

You finished a novel: stand up tall. That is no small feat.

One of the painful things about writing is that it's not like most other professions. With other careers, you study and prepare for a time - months or a few years - and then if you're smart at all, if you applied yourself at all, you end up reasonably competent and begin making money at your new career.

But writing is one of the arts. There's no certain path. No job fairs or recruitment. No graduation or career guidance. There's only your personal commitment to improve. And networking, which can help.

We feel awkward out there in the world where others don't understand this. We can feel awkward in our own families, although having a supportive spouse/partner is a huge relief. Still, even with that, even with plenty to do as a SAHM, I wish I could contribute to our expenses with my writing. I wish it didn't 'look to others' like I was following a pipe dream or being silly. I wish my kids could see that if you believe in yourself and work hard, you'll reach your goals. It might happen, it might not. Am I willing to keep at it for the rest of my life despite that?

Writing is who I am. It's always been my 'career,' even when I wouldn't let it be. It's not something I chose; it chose me. To follow it - to submit to it - is to be courageous.

I know someone who looked down on JK Rowling for taking government assistance while she was writing Harry Potter. I told them she was my hero for doing that. That was hard. for a woman with a college degree, that was humbling. But she believed in her work enough to look like a loser to others. Few of us will ever succeed anywhere near her level, of course, but we have to be brave and go against that uncomfortable feeling of being a loser.

At least true artists will get you.

RaggedEdge....I needed that post sooooo much. I can't tell you how many times I've said in my head, 'If this doesn't hti, that's it. I'm done.' And I never end up done. Writing is the best, and the worst addiction to have for me because sometimes I'd rather be outside hanging with friends and whatnot, but then I end up in a dark room somewhere behind my computer working on something because I HAVE to work on it. That's why it's nice to be on a place like this to remind myself I'm not alone in this...

The Emissary said:

RaggedEdge....I needed that post sooooo much. I can't tell you how many times I've said in my head, 'If this doesn't hti, that's it. I'm done.' And I never end up done. Writing is the best, and the worst addiction to have for me because sometimes I'd rather be outside hanging with friends and whatnot, but then I end up in a dark room somewhere behind my computer working on something because I HAVE to work on it. That's why it's nice to be on a place like this to remind myself I'm not alone in this...

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Yep. You are normal.

Sometimes the need to write has felt like a curse. I was the A student, always on top. I was a person who volunteered for this and that so that she didn't let others do all the work. But the longer I've been an adult, the more I realize I'm just a dreamer who wants to get lost in my head and spin rich, compelling stories that move other people. I've had to shuck others' expectations of me - expectations I established much of the time - to carve out more time and more head space to write.

Because for every time writing feelings like a curse, there are twenty more times it feels divine.