Amazon (KDP) cracking down on erotica. Again.

c.m.n.

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Amazon cracking down on erotica. Again. And again!

Without hijacking another thread, I wanted to post this for those who don't already know.

Amazon is cracking down on erotica, again.

http://selenakitt.com/blog/index.ph...-again-blocking-pseudoincest-and-monster-sex/

This time they're not just tagging your books "Adult" but they are deleting any new uploads or re-uploads to their KDP system that fall under whatever their "unacceptable content policy" is.

And again (update June 4, 2014): http://selenakitt.com/blog/corporate-censorship-amazon-targets-dark-erotic-romance-bdsm/
 
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Aggy B.

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So, Amazon can choose not to distribute whatever they want. They have that right. And it sucks, but that's not any different than any other service provider/venue.

Since anyone can browse Amazon it would make sense that that actually label everything that is adult content. Of course, authors don't want that because it limits exposure, and Amazon doesn't really want that because it limits their profits, but they also have to cover their asses when little Suzy stumbles across an erotica title and starts asking Mommy awkward questions and then Mommy sends them an outraged email.

Detailed guidelines would be helpful, but again we see that Amazon wants to profit as much as possible from whatever content they can publish as long as it doesn't land them in hot water with their customers. So they keep the language vague on objectionable content and pick and choose what they will filter or block.

It sucks, but they have the right to do that. They are providing a service and as such, authors are subject to the terms and conditions (even when they're vague). If you want the ease and exposure provided by Amazon you have to jump through their hoops. Or go somewhere else.

Aggy, agrees that "pretty much what you'd expect" and "we'll know it when we see it" are not helpful guidelines
 

c.m.n.

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I haven't heard of any publishers being affected this time, but I've read of several accounts of self-published authors having books deleted.
 

ebbrown

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I haven't heard of it hitting any of the major publishers with having books pulled. Seems like certain keywords are triggers to be flagged, especially on self-published work.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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I already don't buy erotica from Amazon because I hate their policies on it. Especially since erotica is singled out for persecution while other genres containing far more disturbing elements, including the very same elements Amazon deletes erotica for, are ignored.
 

Lexis Sommer

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In addition to what that post mentions, Amazon is blocking and removing titles that are about virgins. Just a heads up.
 

veinglory

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I have trouble believing the presence of virgins is the target issue. It might be a keyword they use to try and help detect underage. While their execution is ham-fisted they are mostly targeting material that is potentially illegal to sell.
 

Fallen

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I have trouble believing the presence of virgins is the target issue. It might be a keyword they use to try and help detect underage. While their execution is ham-fisted they are mostly targeting material that is potentially illegal to sell.

To support Veinglory's theory, I've just done a search on Amazon for a title I know about a 25+ virgin, (Patience is a Virgin) and that's still up. :) Can't tell if it's tagged or hidden in anyway (pretty useless at that side of things).
 

mamiller512

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The standard (whatever it is) seems to be applied arbitrarily. Almost as if its not being done based on some form of a data mining. One in which actual people are doing the tagging where minion one doesn't always apply the same sets of rules as minion two. It could be based on some kind of complaint but there isn't a consistency in the application of the "policy."
 

Alice Xavier

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A friendly PSA: Amazon is going apeshit right now. Thousands of erotica titles have been purged in the last day or so, thanks to some obnoxious jerk on twitter, some creepy muckraking blog, and a certain British tabloid we all know and hate (will not mention or link becuase the articles are horrible, libelous, and extremely poorly researched and they do not deserve any attention).

The vast majority of stuff targeted is pseudo incest and barely legal type stuff (hence virgin titles getting blocked), but lots of other stuff is getting caught in the net, like a couple of my fantasy erotica pieces and even tame romance in a few cases.

Silver lining is that Amazon will just kick the titles back to draft (rather than block them) and tell you to fix the (basic) problems they've listed. So far, this is not about content, but about presentation of said content (don't use smutty titles and make your covers classy).
 

K.D. West

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Hi! Just as a point of information: I was informed today by Amazon that they'd pulled my story "Bridget: Virgin Knot." It involves college students, so there's no question of the banning being about the characters' ages; it must have been the subtitle.

Serves me right for getting cute with a Shakespeare quote. :p

And I've had an entirely different title ("Juliet Takes Off") permanently blocked recently for no reason that I can discern. The Amazon version of the story had a fully clothed woman on the cover and no mention of anything racy in the title or, really, in the description. It involves sex, but it's between two consenting, un-related human adults. There is first-time sex involved, but that's not mentioned in the description, and it's a pretty minor theme in the story. Are we only supposed to write stories about people who've had sex before? If so, most erotic romance is going to go out the window.

Very confusing -- to me, at least. Again: :p
 
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Maryn

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I'd be more okay with it if they stated their rules clearly and enforced them consistently across the board.

Neither of which seems to be the case. Sheesh, that's no way to run a business.

Maryn, whose coffee has gotten cold--the horror!
 

mamiller512

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Maybe I'm being naive but shouldn't we as a group be speaking up as well? I buy a lot of books from Amazon, as I'm sure all of you do. Why shouldn't our voices be heard as well? Amazon has been (in my opinion) taking more and more of a conservative approach to erotica and listening to what feels like a small group of complaints. In typical corporate fashion, they are trying to address the issue addressed by what feels like a minority without a clear and concise plan, i,e, an inconsistently applied policy. Shouldn't we at least send them a petition or letters of complaint? As a group, maybe we can show them, the other side needs to be heard as well. Climbing off my soap box.

:Soapbox:
 

Torgo

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A friendly PSA: Amazon is going apeshit right now. Thousands of erotica titles have been purged in the last day or so, thanks to some obnoxious jerk on twitter, some creepy muckraking blog, and a certain British tabloid we all know and hate (will not mention or link becuase the articles are horrible, libelous, and extremely poorly researched and they do not deserve any attention).

Mind if I just stick up briefly for the 'obnoxious jerk on Twitter'? (Not for the Mail, of course, sod them.) I assume you're referring to Jeremy Duns, whom I follow, and who does a good and worthwhile job pointing out sock-puppets and plagiarists on occasion.

Duns was pointing out books that seem to explicitly violate Amazon's policy re: content. “We don’t accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts; what we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect.” Whereupon we're in to the thorny debate about what's offensive, what's porn, what's erotica etc; but it seems like Amazon's saying their position's going to stay fairly close to middle-of-the-road cultural norms. And thus they do not wish to publish incest rape pornography. (Any more than they wished to offer those "KEEP CALM AND RAPE A LOT" shirts from a while back.)

Like I've said elsewhere on these boards, I'm less interested in the debate over whether Amazon should or should not carry this material than in what it tells us about a world in which book retailers don't have the resources or inclination to read everything they sell.
 

mamiller512

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Duns was pointing out books that seem to explicitly violate Amazon's policy re: content. “We don’t accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts; what we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect.” Whereupon we're in to the thorny debate about what's offensive, what's porn, what's erotica etc; but it seems like Amazon's saying their position's going to stay fairly close to middle-of-the-road cultural norms. And thus they do not wish to publish incest rape pornography. (Any more than they wished to offer those "KEEP CALM AND RAPE A LOT" shirts from a while back.)

I, for one, am not outraged at an attempt to eliminate incest from their catalog. My indignation arises from their inaccurate and complete inconsistency in regards to virgins.
 

Torgo

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I, for one, am not outraged at an attempt to eliminate incest from their catalog. My indignation arises from their inaccurate and complete inconsistency in regards to virgins.

Yeah, so this is my point: they're trying to enforce their policies without reading the books. They're applying some kind of keyword search and banning stuff that shouldn't be banned (and presumably missing stuff that, by their own lights, shouldn't stay.)

Given that the volume of self-published stuff is too big for them to effectively vet it pre-publication, they're either going to have to continue with this imperfect, retrospective, heavy-handed 'solution', or accept the free-for-all.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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Given that the volume of self-published stuff is too big for them to effectively vet it pre-publication, they're either going to have to continue with this imperfect, retrospective, heavy-handed 'solution', or accept the free-for-all.

And there's the problem.

There's just too much self-published material being put up hourly, daily, by the minute for anyone on Amazon to monitor. Look at the amount of plagiarized fiction that's been discovered and exposed.

Amazon could pay someone to look over every submission but that's not what they're about. They're not a bookstore, they sell everything from soup to nuts and won't want to put the money out for someone to vet the work. Ebooks might be *part* of their sales but it's not enough to warrant paying someone full time (or a lot of someones) to do it.

Thus it's either all or nothing. Either you slap down the tags and deal with the exceptions (anyone remember the "breast" furor?) or pay someone to play gatekeeper - which will be more trouble than it's worth. One of Amazon's "bonuses" to self-publishers is that there *are* no gatekeepers and no one vetting what's going up.

However, it's not censorship. There are plenty of other places, including personal websites, where you can buy these types of stories and, honestly, give the author MORE of the price than going through Amazon. It may take a few minutes more but you can get your whatever-porn and give the author a higher cut by avoiding Amazon.
 

c.m.n.

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I'll update this one too:

Kobo has dropped all Draft2Digital books (all genres) concerning worries over objectionable content.

I wonder when/if they'll drop Smashwords titles.


(Info read on another forum)
 

Sheryl Nantus

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I suspect the growth of independent bookstores online, personally. It's been happening before with authors selling off their websites and/or collectives being created to give authors more control and, obviously, more profits.

The stories will still get out there. It'll just be harder to find them.
 

Alice Xavier

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And there's the problem.

There's just too much self-published material being put up hourly, daily, by the minute for anyone on Amazon to monitor. Look at the amount of plagiarized fiction that's been discovered and exposed.

Amazon could pay someone to look over every submission but that's not what they're about. They're not a bookstore, they sell everything from soup to nuts and won't want to put the money out for someone to vet the work. Ebooks might be *part* of their sales but it's not enough to warrant paying someone full time (or a lot of someones) to do it.

Thus it's either all or nothing. Either you slap down the tags and deal with the exceptions (anyone remember the "breast" furor?) or pay someone to play gatekeeper - which will be more trouble than it's worth. One of Amazon's "bonuses" to self-publishers is that there *are* no gatekeepers and no one vetting what's going up.

However, it's not censorship. There are plenty of other places, including personal websites, where you can buy these types of stories and, honestly, give the author MORE of the price than going through Amazon. It may take a few minutes more but you can get your whatever-porn and give the author a higher cut by avoiding Amazon.

This is all completely false. Amazon can absolutely afford to pay not only one person to play gatekeeper, but an army of KDP content reviewers. If you've ever uploaded something to Amazon via KDP, you'll see that your book spends a time having the status 'In Review' before reaching 'Publishing' status. There is a human looking at it. The first tier review team, likely based in India, seems to only scrutinize a book if it raises certain flags, at which point it seems to be escalated to a much smaller, likely US-based team. This is the team that dishes out all the block notices and whatnot. No one is sure exactly how it works (Amazon's internal processes are closely guarded secrets and employees are bound by NDAs), but from evidence of Amazon job postings and reviews of said jobs in India and the smaller pool of names from which we receive notices regarding individual books, this is believed to be the basic situation.

The revenue Amazon makes from just a handful of KDP authors residing in various top 100 lists is enough to pay the salaries of their reviewers, and their are thousands and thousands of authors, including at least hundreds of high-earning ones. All in all, Amazon makes a significant crapload of money from KDP. In addition to making them very easy money with a high profit margin (no storage, no shipping, only overhead is the review team salaries), it provides a constant barrage of new content for people's Kindles. In fact, there's good reason to believe that the whole reason Amazon conjured up KDP in the first place was to quickly populate its ebook store with content, so Kindle owners would have stuff to buy while the big publishers were still being skittish about ebooks.

However, in the primordial days of KDP, there was no review process whatsoever, because, like you said, Amazon was just about selling stuff on their site. They were not publishers and they didn't see fit to police content. Then all the private label rights bullshit happened, customers were unhappy, and Amazon started screening content and banning accounts known to have uploaded private label rights material and other Warrior Forum crap. Again, with this British media outrage over 'an epidemic of filth', Amazon doesn't want customers to be unhappy (especially leading up to Christmas) so they're preemptively purging a bunch of stuff. Amazon is all about its customers. They do not screen content because they are playing at being a publisher, they are screening content and filtering/blocking certain titles to keep customers happy. It is very much worth their while to have a content review team.

And no, it's not a matter of censorship, it's a matter of convenience. Amazon has awesome infrastructure in place for buying digital content and making it magically appear on your Kindle, eliminating that pesky step of side loading content onto a device. Don't forget their awesome search engine and AI that learns what each customer likes so that it can cough up relevant recommendations for you. Amazon is a vendor that customers trust and like, and to which customers have already given their credit card information. I buy digital content on Amazon more often than not because it's convenient. Smashwords is an awkward, bungled site and the only reason I ever bother getting content there is because of freebie coupons. I wouldn't expect readers to be all that eager to make credit card transactions on my own website.
 

Torgo

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If you've ever uploaded something to Amazon via KDP, you'll see that your book spends a time having the status 'In Review' before reaching 'Publishing' status. There is a human looking at it. The first tier review team, likely based in India, seems to only scrutinize a book if it raises certain flags, at which point it seems to be escalated to a much smaller, likely US-based team. This is the team that dishes out all the block notices and whatnot. No one is sure exactly how it works (Amazon's internal processes are closely guarded secrets and employees are bound by NDAs), but from evidence of Amazon job postings and reviews of said jobs in India and the smaller pool of names from which we receive notices regarding individual books, this is believed to be the basic situation.

It's still a black box though, isn't it? We don't know how things get flagged, we don't know how thoroughly things get read, etc etc. You're just inferring mechanisms that you admit we don't understand.

The fact that Amazon contains

(a) books violating content guidelines
(b) plagiarised books
(c) autopublished spambooks copied from Wikipedia in violation of the CC license

suggests that the review process is not catching everything. And thus either they *don't* employ enough people to vet things, or their vetting processes aren't working. I simply don't believe everything is getting read and approved.

We also should probably draw a distinction between how things work with KDP and how things work if you go via a third-party...