[Publisher] Black Rose Writing (Reagan Rothe)

Hi, and welcome to the board.

acmcclellan said:

Is this normal?

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This is normal for stealth vanity presses. It is not normal for commercial publishers.

I signed a contract with a small press recently. The contract specified that I would receive twenty copies of the book - for free. Real publishers don't need their authors to buy their own books, in bulk or otherwise.

acmcclellan said:

Hey guys. I'm new here. I came across this thread as I've been communicating with Black Rose Writing and wanted to know something about them. Currently they are looking at publishing my childrens picture book. Their recommended illustrator, who looks like they do good work, is charging me $50 an illustration. From what I've researched this sounds fair.

However, I received this correspondence from Black Rose "Once released, typically, most of our authors order 50+ copies. Because of the extent of artwork expense, etc... would you be willing to order a minimum 20 copies at release? The retail price would be between $10.95 - $12.95 and you would receive a 20% discount on that size of order."

Is this normal? Since I'm already paying for the artwork, why would I have to buy my own books? Does anyone know who Black Rose distributes to or are they more of a "self publisher"?

Thank you!

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Hi Acmcclellan, and welcome to AW

Black Rose is a vanity-publisher. Pay-to-play. Rather than having a straight-up fee, they collect on the back-end by having you buy your own books. This is not regular, commercial publishing. The chance of your book ever seeing the inside of an actual bookstore is minuscule. Run away.

You shouldn't pay for illustrations, and you most certainly shouldn't buy copies of your own book.

Please spend some time researching before you agree to anything. The thread How Real Publishing Work is a good start.

Best case scenario: You haven't yet signed a contract, so you're free to change your mind and take your book elsewhere. If you've already signed, refuse to buy any books. It's not how it's done in real publishing. Money flows to the author.

You shouldn't pay for the illustrations.
Don't buy any of your own books.

In March '08, the founder of Black Rose Writing said,

I'm truly sorry you are all so critical and negative of my work and attempt to build a publishing house that believes in everything that PublishAmerica doesn't.

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Maybe everything other than the "solicit authors to buy their own books in bulk" part.

He also said,

Second, we pay royalties starting @ 10%, with possible advances in the future, and never... ever ask for one penny from our writers or authors EVER! You will never pay a cent!

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*snffsnff!*

What's that I smell? Why, it's BURNING PANTS!

How much did you pay for the artwork? That should be on the publisher's dime.

Black Rose Writing

Gratefully, I haven't signed anything or even started the artwork. I'm really glad I came across this thread.

I've heard you can either pay an illustrator upfront for their artwork or share in the royalties. Do any of you know if this is true? If so, which is better?

Thanks again!

acmcclellan said:

Gratefully, I haven't signed anything or even started the artwork.

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Good! Keep it that way!

ALWAYS obey YOG'S LAW: MONEY FLOWS TO THE WRITER.

Welcome to AW!

I've heard you can either pay an illustrator upfront for their artwork or share in the royalties. Do any of you know if this is true? If so, which is better?

Thanks again!

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In professional publishing for illustrated books the *publisher* hires the artist, NEVER the writer. You don't spend one penny to get published or to pay for the art.

If a writer and artist collaborate and submit a book together, that's one thing, but if you're submitting words-only to a publisher, then you don't worry about the art.

Real publishing houses have art departments and a stable of freelance artists they contact first to see if any are available to do illustrations.

Black Rose Writing is NOT a venue you want to deal with; the guy running it has no idea what he's doing, no professional experience in the publishing industry, and even fell for the Publish America scam line. He then started up Black Rose Writing as a means to sell his own books.

It would seem he's picked up some bad habits from PubAmerica when it comes to persuading inexperienced writers to part with their money.

His website design has improved somewhat, but unlike other pro publishers he seems to think the weather conditions in San Antonio might be of interest to aspiring writers. There's also a rather silly "web poll" so you can vote about his favorite books.

I suppose that's an improvement. He used to have family pics up, much to the delight of any child predators that might be lurking on the Net. However, you won't find stuff like that on the sites of truly pro publishers such as Random House, Tor, or Little-Brown.

RUN AWAY. Seriously.

Now I want to make sure you're talking about Black Rose Writing in Castroville, TX or Black Rose Books which is a different group, located in Montreal, Canada. They seem to focus on non-fiction with a political bent.

Here's a clue for anyone considering starting up their own publishing house--check to make sure the name's not been taken!

I am a writer with Black Rose Writing. I am not here to defend. I really don't have anything to say.... I don't have anything against my publisher or you guys. I have my own warrior's creed--prevents me from involving myself in certain situations. I just want to answer the question of distribution that I saw earlier. I have seen my novel on Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, and www.bn.com {Barnes & Nobles}. I think it may be broader than that, but those are the only places that are currently relevant for my goals. It is a relatively small press, so I doubt that there distribution is as broad as some.

The distribution point relates to physical stores, not websites--it is not a trivial difference. If you are speaking, as we are, of distribution to brick-and-mortar stores their distribution capacity is exactly nil, as far as I can see.

Indeed. Without a physical presence in a bookstore there is no distribution so far as I'm concerned.

This is also important for vital library sales. When you have proper distribution your work turns up in library catalogs.

No distribution = no sales.

You can have books all over the web, but people have to know it exists in order to find it. Self-promotion can only go so far.

At least when a title is physically sitting on a shelf the casual book browser has a chance of spotting and picking it up for a flip-through.

Gillhoughly said:

This is also important for vital library sales. When you have proper distribution your work turns up in library catalogs.

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I don't believe Black Rose is eligible for the CIP program. That's one more strike against their books.

I just want to clarify. I didn't realize you were asking about brick and mortar stores as the only source of distribution. My novel is not found in brick and mortar stores...as far as I know. I have had a few independent book stores across the country ask for a review copy. So they could have ordered some, but I don't know. Black Rose Writing is dealing with them. But let us say that my book is not in an actual building right now. There is always a possibility that it will be in the future. Besides a sale is a sale. If you sale well on the internet, surely a brick and mortar store will pick up your title. Hey, lets be honest. If you sale well out of the trunk of your car a brick and mortar store will pick up your title. Success depends on the person. I mean there are other factors. But for me, those factors will never be the author of my fate.

Savant said:

If you sale well on the internet, surely a brick and mortar store will pick up your title. Hey, lets be honest. If you sale well out of the trunk of your car a brick and mortar store will pick up your title.

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No they won't.

One - no one knows books available "through stores" exist because there's no advance marketing through them. And those brick and mortar stores don't just "pick up" titles. They choose them from a catalogue (which you aren't in) in advance.

Many major chains, like B&N have store policies against shelving POD books. You might find a sympathetic local manager with a "local author" section that will let you sell one or two copies on consignment, but that's it.

The books from POD presses aren't always competitively priced, and since there's no warehouse where they're kept, returns aren't really an option the way they are for commercially published books with real distribution.

Savant said:

Success depends on the person. I mean there are other factors. But for me, those factors will never be the author of my fate.

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Unless a major publisher picks up your book, it's not going to fare well in the market. POD presses aren't geared for mass selling.

If you sale well on the internet, surely a brick and mortar store will pick up your title.

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What Cyia said. They won't. They absolutely won't.

And it is "sell."

Stores cannot possibly know any writer's sales figures from the web are unless the writer strolls in to inform the manager of the numbers. I'm sure the manager will be polite and offer congratulations, but don't expect her to do anything about it.

The corporate offices deal with the distributors. If your book has no distribution, it doesn't exist to them.

Some of the chain websites carry POD and vanity titles, and Amazon carries everything, but the stores themselves will not stock them. They hardly have enough space for the books they order through distributor catalogs.

Hey, lets be honest. If you sale well out of the trunk of your car a brick and mortar store will pick up your title.

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You want honesty?

If I walked into my local B&N and informed the manager of my success at emptying my trunk of books and for that reason she should order copies for the store, she would think I was out of my freakin' mind.

She'd be absolutely right, too.

If you sell a POD title well on the Internet--say around five thousand copies--then you are much more likely to be of interest to a book publisher or literary agent when you send out your next novel.

POD books have their place in the publishing landscape, but you won't find them anywhere near the NYTimes bestseller territory.

Savant, here's the thing about having your book in online stores only: No one will know it's there. Not unless you, personally, tell them the title and where to find it, or give the potential buyer a link. In effect, you'll be handselling your book.

Think about it with your reader-mind for a minute. How do you find the books you buy?

Bookstores choose the books they carry from catalogues, presented to them by experienced salespeople before the book is even out. I expect there is some shuffling around later, if a book proves particularly successful; but, by and large, the serious marketing a book needs to be visible in the marketplace goes on before the book goes to print. And none of it is something an author can do for herself.
And that's not even touching on trade reviews, or distribution and returnability.

It was eleven pm. I am not allowed to misspell words on this forum? LOL. But I thank you all. The information you have given serves as confirmation.

Savant said:

It was eleven pm. I am not allowed to misspell words on this forum? LOL. But I thank you all. The information you have given serves as confirmation.

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It's not just that. This is a public venue, and it usually serves an author well to put your best foot forward, as it were. Obviously no one's perfect, but it helps to try and mind your spelling and grammar no matter where you are

To be specific, bookstores need a book to be deeply discounted, returnable and available through their prefered distributor (such as Ingram). If you don't do all of these things, it won't happened. If you do all these things it still might not happened but at least there is a chance.

I will say, my book has been picked up on a 90-day contract through a Chapters store in Canada, consigned for 12 copies, and they've asked me to make sure I have a second run of at least 10 more for them. For those that don't know Chapters, it's a branch of Indigo books, which is the Barnes & Noble of Canada.
They also gave me a few contacts to give to Black Rose for the fiction buyers of Indigo for YA, with the potential of having the book picked up by the buyers rather than pure consignment.
I know this is all through my own legwork, and will all now depend on the type of negotiations or concessions Black Rose is willing to make as far as discount and return policy.
I'm hoping (and not expecting one way or another yet) that it goes against the general consensus on here and that I can be the first author to be able to come on here with a true success story from Black Rose Writing. As always, I will of course reserve judgment on any factors I haven't fully discovered yet.
They do have some brick and mortar stores that carry some of their books as well in the US, stocks replenished by Black Rose themselves, so I've been led to believe. One is Borders in San Antonio, and another is the Twig Bookstore. Being from Canada, I'm not familiar with the chains in the US other than B&N and somewhat with Borders, so I can't really say much there.
The next few weeks will tell, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

One other positive step they've made is by agreeing to supply some schools and stores with review copies free of charge as well at my request.

Congratulations on the Indigo possibility, JephC. That's a fancy bit of footwork on your part. I really hope Black Rose will hold up their end.

The consignment deal isn't so good though. I do understand why you'd go for it, but you shouldn't have to buy your own books for resale. I trust you at least get a solid discount, since you are, for all practical purposes, acting as your own distributor?

Eirin: I took the deal because really, at this point the publicity is good, and as has been posted many times here, the exposure is even better. Black Rose has been open to negotiating discounts with me, and basically I've made sure I have some stock right now left so I don't have to order more directly from the company. I want to see what happens with the fiction buyer before I commit to paying anymore from my own pocket. If Black Rose works as they've said and manage to get a deal with Indigo, then I shouldn't be distributing any more through myself, but through the publisher directly. Again, time will tell, but I'll stay hopeful until otherwise brought down, because, well, quite frankly what good will it do me to be negative?
I'm hoping that word of mouth, and actual sales of my book from the shelves of Chapters will open up a few eyes and increase the exposure and interest level.
I can say, and trust me, I know it's not really that big of a deal, but for 2 hours, I was listed on www.amazon.ca as ranking above all 7 Harry Potter books. #1 in Sci-Fi adventure sales for those 2 hours, #18 in fantasy, and #402 overall. Which means that probably 10 people bought it in those hours, but hey, it was fun to see that.

Ranking is a very flexible thing, especial genre specific or non-.com. Have you sold hundreds? Thousands? For a small press with no conventional distribution over about 300 would be somewhat successful, over 3000 would be phenomenal.

For conventional publishers anything under 4000 is pretty pitiful. This is mainly due to the difference in distribution channel access.

If you can do this well with Black Rose I suggest trading up for you next book. Author efforts and publisher efforts are synergistic.

But see this is the difference: this success isn't a success created by Black Rose. It's created by you. Not that that diminishes the work your done, but it's important for people to realize the difference. Black Rose didn't do anything except print and sell you your own books - you did the rest. And any follow up they do with bookstores is not because of their efforts, it'll be because of yours. Not everyone is going to be able or willing to do the footwork you've done, and if that's the reality of signing with Black Rose then people should be aware of it.